Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456743#Comment_121456743

"Hence the relevant asking about states on that basis for other ethnicities."

You haven't made clear why you want to do this. Do you want to talk about ethnic groups that are stateless? Ethnic groups that aren't? Or the transition from being stateless to having a state? What is it?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456790#Comment_121456790

Erm, the UN Partition Plan of 1947. One side accepted it, the other didn't. They've been searching for excuses ever since......

Set Adrift

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456800#Comment_121456800

Erm so much land has been taken over illegally since 1948.

Hamas can, and should be condemned, but Israeli leadership shouldn't be portrayed as innocents.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456790#Comment_121456790

Palestinians recent ancestors mostly come from Egypt,Arabia, Iraq, reflected in their surnames.

Children of the Empire and still dreaming of that Empire.

Not much use to now though and a constant impediment to a 2 State solution. They should look at the world as it is. Not as it was over a century ago.

No doubt a sizeable cohort in Israel have no interest in a 2 state solution but they were the minority for most of recent Israeli history, the Palestinians delivered for them though.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456793#Comment_121456793

I don't want to talk about it at all.

Go back and ask the 12:20am version of yourself why you felt it was relevant to turn the conversation in that direction.

I've already entertained you way too much on this nonsense. I'll make it easy for you, next time you want to bring ethnicity in to a conversation about why Israel exists, or why Jewish people should be viewed or treated in a particular way, ask yourself if the same would apply to other ethnic groups. When you do this, if you find you don't like what that would mean, maybe reconsider using the Jewish ethnicity for whatever point you were trying to make.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456823#Comment_121456823

"Hamas can, and should be condemned, but Israeli leadership shouldn't be portrayed as innocents."

History is/has been unrelentingly harsh on what it sees as "losers". Will this change in the future? Sadly, probably not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456841#Comment_121456841

I challenged you on the fundamental point of you questioning why Israel should exist/should (or shouldn't) have been established. You then attempted to engage in comparative analogies in an attempt to seek an answer to this. Then you refused to engage along these lines when I introduced the Italians and the Spanish. Why, I don't know.

Set Adrift

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456849#Comment_121456849

????

Losers. No one's a winner here.

Before the Celts we had the Tuatha De Dannan here, pre 100 BC. Through dna testing they've been identified worldwide, and due to sympathy at their barbaric treatment of the Celts, they are being reinstated in the Republic of Ireland and a statelet created.

Like the Palestinians in 1947, for some bizarre reason the Republic of Ireland won't accept this state. The new state will comprise Mayo and Connacht, your relatives will be dispossessed but you're ok with it as it's the 'right' thing to do.

Sudden Valley

There probably should be a separate thread on the basis for the conflict in israel/Palestine. It is such a long and complicated history it just drags the thread into historical discussions rather than a current affairs discussion.

And can we change the thread title it's just a bit odd and a bit biased having it just called the Hamas attack when we have had an Israeli attack on gaza, not just Hamas, for over a month.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456849#Comment_121456849

The Jews have shown that a people can over time move from losers to winners.

Set Adrift

One major point. Everyone is ok with drawing lines on maps and placing different peoples in different parts.

But it becomes very personal if YOUR land, property is taken. Just picture your own home being taken and given to another, don't tell me resentment, anger and hatred won't build.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456897#Comment_121456897

Yes, agreed. A good idea.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456897#Comment_121456897

The actual news today is ominous. We could be rapidly heading towards a humanitarian disaster in the region, with disease breaking out among the displaced Gazan people. The Israeli state is clearly gone completely out of control and perhaps no longer even listening to the US.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456897#Comment_121456897

The thread title should most definitely be changed.

However it suits the Zionist genocidal agenda to pretend that history began on 7th October.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456929#Comment_121456929

The Israelis don't care. They never have and they never will. The only thing that would make them pause is the turning off of the taps of Western money and arms.

That is the was it always was and the way it always will be until they manage to wipe their Arab neighbours off the face of the earth. Any pause is simply a waiting game until there is another excuse for them to have another go at finishing the job.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456929#Comment_121456929

It's a genocide.

And the US is culpable given their supply of military equipment to Israel and its acceptance of their actions over the last 2 months.

Apparently Israel is trying to push a plan of massively reducing the Gaza population through the displacement of people to neighboring states. They will likely use the humanitarian crisis to justify this without referring to how this situation has come about.

It's a Nakba greater than that of 48, and the west is unquestionably hugely responsible for this.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121367750#Comment_121367750

Corbyn was the best asset the Conservative Party have had in years. He was put in place by the far left clowns in the Unions, just like they used their block vote to elect the wrong Miliband brother before him. Labours rump of far left anti capitalist anti Semitic Guardian reading smoked-salmon socialists are to that Party what the inbred old money Tories are to the Conservatives. Labour can't be seen to be anti Semitic but have to play to the crowd on anything to do with Israel so it's a balancing act for them.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121368290#Comment_121368290

If he thinks it can't survive as an independent entity the simplest solution is to make it a part of Egypt again. Though I don't think that's what he had in mind...

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456800#Comment_121456800

It was decided that land in a place, that was being occupied by europeans, should be split between the new arrivals and the people who actually lived there. The people who actually lived there objected to this.

Can you imagine that here? A couple of hundred thousand people turn up and then the UN decides they get half the country. can you imagine anyone actually agreeing to this?

And btw, Israel never accepted it either. the fact that they immediately occupied more land should show that. If they want acceptance of that agreement, they should go back to those borders.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456461#Comment_121456461

I literally said that not every ethnic group gets a stare. Reread the post.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455740#Comment_121455740

That's exactly why I equated Israel to Hamas. I saw something similar before. Disgusting for sure and anyone who thinks only one side is responsible needs to waken up.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457370#Comment_121457370

The Israelis accepted it but after repeated attacks by neighbouring states and attempted ones they had to build a more defensive position.

That ended up with Judea and Samaria coming under Israeli control.

Same happened with Gaza, the Golan, Shebba farms. All were taken when the neighbours kept showing that they would be used as launch pads for invasions and attacks.

Some in Israel were delighted that they ended up with them but it was forced upon the govts there.

Same as Israel wanted to normalise relations with Gaza but we all know how that went in Oct 7th.

It will end with much of Gaza becoming an empty military buffer zone and as always it was the obsession with exterminating "the Jews, fags and whores", as one Palestinian I met described Israel.

There never has been an interest from the Palestinian side for a 2 state solution or even peaceful co existence, under any circumstance, there is a complete commitment to annihilation and extermination, no matter the price to Palestinian lives.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457128#Comment_121457128

Did you see prominent Corbyn supporter, Jackie Walker, was mocking at the state of Emily Hand and her head lice after being "lost" in a Hamas tunnel.

She has a very long history of the most extreme anti Semitism and general poison and hate for all and has become a fixture on the fash pity circus online.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441065#Comment_121441065

I'm not sure what you mean.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457474#Comment_121457474

There never has been an interest from the Palestinian side for a 2 state solution or even peaceful co existence, under any circumstance, there is a complete commitment to annihilation and extermination, no matter the price to Palestinian lives.

Why are you trying to rewrite history?

From the US Government on the Oslo accords. (Link)

Israel accepted the PLO as the representative of the Palestinians, and the PLO renounced terrorism and recognized Israel’s right to exist in peace. Both sides agreed that a Palestinian Authority (PA) would be established and assume governing responsibilities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip over a five-year period. Then, permanent status talks on the issues of borders, refugees, and Jerusalem would be held.

Note: The Israeli representative, their PM, who signed the accords was assassinated by an Israeli who was against the content of the agreement.

If Israel was the peaceful participant as you suggest and only every reacted to provocation from the Palestinians, they wouldn't have fallen foul of some many UN resolutions and wouldn't be relying on the US to veto holding them to account time and time again.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456981#Comment_121456981

I wouldn't say they never cared. There were occasions where they would seek to avoid civilian casualties in air strikes. Now they don't seem to care.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457519#Comment_121457519

I don't think people can be held accountable for every opinion their friends hold.

I dislike Corbyn because of the far left anti-democratic opinions he holds, the fact that's he's a closet Brexiteer but is too dishonest and spineless to admit it, and because he's a nasty petty vindictive humourless person. That's enough.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457370#Comment_121457370

"Can you imagine that here? A couple of hundred thousand people turn up and then the UN decides they get half the country. can you imagine anyone actually agreeing to this?"

It did happen here though, just over a longer time frame. Once the South accepted the status of NI, we also accepted the right of the Protestant (mainly Unionist) people to live on the island. You aren't advocating turfing them out are you?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457474#Comment_121457474

So no mention of the 700k settlers on the West Bank making a two state solution possible. I would accept that the Arab should accept part of the blame but to apportion the blame one hundred on one side just shows to everyone how completely biased you are.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456969#Comment_121456969

Justifying terrorist attacks, typical response from posters here.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457554#Comment_121457554

Israel was the victim of continuous suicide bombs from Palestinians who were anti this treaty. Very obviously it fell apart

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457641#Comment_121457641

The settlers took full advantage of the complete Arab disinterest in any peace, any co existence.

They shouldn't have but given the reality on the ground of the Arabs only viewing peace as a period of preparation for the next attack, what else was going to happen?

It's a crap situation but for a 2 state solution and or peace, you would have to find a Palestinian movement interested in peace or a 2 state solution or even just interested in peaceful coexistence in one joint state.

Does such a movement exist, can it ever, probably not, and less and less so. We are a long way from colonial legacy outlook and training that led to groups like the PLO and other Marxist or Socialist groups in the region who at least tried but couldn't bring the street with them.

nolivesmatter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456910#Comment_121456910

What's your point? Are you justifying the attack on October 7th? The lines on the map were not drawn by the people who live in Israel now. Do you think we should still be fighting a war to take back Northern Ireland?

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457370#Comment_121457370

If that's what you think happened then you have a very incomplete understanding of the history of the region.

History doesn't justify the Hamas attacks or the response from the IDF ad Israeli government. There are enough hostages to history and religion and enough crazy people who think they have a mandate from heaven to wipe out the other side. History cannot be undone so it is necessary that both sides, and their neighbours and the global players, act with some compassionate self interest and find a way to resolve this in a civilised way.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457641#Comment_121457641

Yes, there's more than enough blame to go around but it's a totally fruitless exercise.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457855#Comment_121457855

Don't just accuse someone of not understanding or knowing history. Explain why they're wrong.

Look at the population growth in the 30-s and 40's.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

between 47-48 they went from 32-81% of the population.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457609#Comment_121457609

Nope. I never said anything like that. So please pause with your accusations.

However, the Irish people have their own country, their own parliament, Palestinians don't. And the unionists aren't taking more and more of the republic.

And finally, the Irish people never agreed to the plantations or to english rule. Just like the palestinians didn't. So you're comparing now, post good friday agreement with Israel/palestine in 1948. A more accurate comparison would be to compare israel/palestine in 48 with Ireland during the plantations.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457767#Comment_121457767

The PLO agreed to a two state solution. The PA was supposed to be a stepping stone to it. Hamas, whilst refusing to recognise Israel have said they'd be happy to have a Palestinian state on the borders agreed to in the Oslo accords.

Netanyhu is firmly against it and has refused to negotiate any further with either the Palestinian Authority or Hamas (Well, obviously not with Hamas) .

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457960#Comment_121457960

Yes, good points. This is not an ongoing conflict between two neighbouring states who happen to not like each other. It's the story of an occupier (some would say oppressor) and an occupied region fighting for independence and statehood (a very different dynamic.....and this type of dynamic is often one of violence and bloodshed, as we know ourselves).

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457688#Comment_121457688

Israel was the victim of assassinations by jewish right wingers who were against the accords. That's why Rabin was assassinated.

BTW, the second intifada occurred after Israel had backed out of negotiations. So that was before the vast majority of suicide bombs.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457927#Comment_121457927

You can use the same source: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-arabs-in-palestine

The population of Palestine in 1880 was around 300,000 to 350,000. The growth in the Arab population was largely driven by Zionism. That irony shouldn't be lost on anyone.

Neither side can excuse their blood letting based on a unique ancestral claim to the land. It justifies neither the actions of Hamas or the ethnic cleansing of vast areas of the West Bank. Comparison to this country and our history just don't stack up, no matter how much either side, or the apologists for the child killer in the Provisional IRA, would like them to.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457982#Comment_121457982

Netanyahu was always against the 2 State solution and the religious crazies keeping him in power think their god is against it too. It is disingenuous to suggest that it was only the Palestinians who opposed it.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458012#Comment_121458012

And that's the thing. There were so many mistakes made when Israel was created. And we can't undo them.

But the current situation is a Palestinian population living under a violent occupation. And the only way for Israel to get long term security is through a peace process but they're not engaging. They're actually hampering the chances by expanding settlement building.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458012#Comment_121458012

No it's not. That's very inaccurate. What should have been the Arab Palestinian country was invaded by Syria, Egypt and Jordan in 1948. Israel pushed them back and took a good chunk of it for themselves. The West Bank was retained then formally annexed by Jordan and Gaza was annexed by Egypt. There was no way Egypt and Jordan were going to give the Palestinian Arabs their own homeland either. They are a victim, a blood soaked pawn, of their Arab neighbours in their conflict with Israel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457960#Comment_121457960

"the Irish people never agreed to the plantations or to english rule."

We did agree to a British presence on the island when our government signed the GFA and it was subsequently passed via a referendum.

"Just like the palestinians didn't."

Time for the Palestinians to ditch the mindless jihadi inspired violence (and ideology) if they want a state of their own (just like Irish republicans had to do). It's brought them nothing but failure, and will continue to do so.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458080#Comment_121458080

You do realise the Irish free state was created in the 20's, long before the GFA, and it was created through violence?

And the Irish population, at the time of the plantations never agreed to it. And what the Irish agreed to in the GFA was to allow the population of the north to decide what country NI belongs in. That's self determination. That's not something that Palestinians have.

BTW, Israel itself was formed by violence. It was jewish settlers who fought the British. Was that wrong too? I'm a pacifist but I'm just wondering if you believe the Irish war of independance was wrong and if the foundation of the jewish state was wrong.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458102#Comment_121458102

So you think if the Palestinians persist with their current violent strategy, they'll eventually achieve statehood?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458102#Comment_121458102

"Israel itself was formed by violence."

Define 'formed,' because Israel's one of the few modern countries formed by political decree. Every country has violent origins. Well, o.k., maybe not Vatican City (a Catholic country created by treaty if I remember right, so yeah, religions can have their own country.)

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458113#Comment_121458113

I honestly don't know. But negotiations haven't worked. The PLO gave up violence and negotiated and look what happened.

Like I said before, I'm a pacifist. But I honestly don't know how long my ideals would last of I was a Palestinian living under occupation.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457688#Comment_121457688

In pretty much every year in the 90's (before and after the accord) more Palestinians were killed by Israeli's than Israeli's killed by Palestinians. From 2000 to 2005 the death toll was approximately 3000 Palestinians, 1000 Israeli's.

So, to suggest that Israel was simply victim in all this is patently untrue and is disingenuous to suggest that but for the Palestinians, there would be peace.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457658#Comment_121457658

I've asked this before. Do you think Nelson Mandela was a terrorist? Because he was branded as such and spent decades in jail. So say that you would have agreed that he was a terrorist, then is it fair to assume that you would have rathered that that what he was fighting against had prevailed so that a terrorist wouldn't have had victory?

I've repeatedly said that Hamas' attacks were terrorism in practice but I can also see the reasons as to why Hamas exists.

Trying to look at this with a right and wrong filter is not something anyone can be doing by accident at this point so we can assume that you are favour of the apartheid that Israel inflicts on Palestinians.