Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458123#Comment_121458123

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine

The reason the British handed it over to the UN was because of a jewish insurgency. Were you not aware of that? I'd assumed everyone posting here had known about the jewish insurgency.

Set Adrift

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457834#Comment_121457834

The period 1948 to the present is now and living memory. Are you trying to equate that with the Ulster Plantation of 1609?!

I've condemned Hamas in all my posts.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457876#Comment_121457876

I could well understood why history is being discussed but I think it a bit of a deflection of what is happening now. I'm more interested in what Israel is going to do with Gaza after this operation.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458228#Comment_121458228

Israel like every country has violent roots (Ireland and the USA jump to mind wrt to the British.)

To say Israel was 'formed' in violence is pretty meaningless, basically it's just pejorative. Most countries were 'formed' in violence with few exceptions.

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458214#Comment_121458214

"The PLO gave up violence"?

Like hell they did!

They still pay pensions to the families of terrorists and suicide bombers including every recent one!

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458471#Comment_121458471

The Shinners gave up violence as well but like PLO they did so because it was politically expedient to do so, not because of a moral recalibration. They also hero worship child killers and terrorists. They are cut from the same cloth. I'm not sure if the PLO still run protection rackets and wash diesel though.

If anyone thinks Ireland it anti Israeli now just wait until our very own (former) child killers are in power.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458434#Comment_121458434

It is most definitely not meaningless when there are people involved in the situation are older than Israel itself. I mean, with that rational, any country could invade an other and immediately claim that it's settled because of historical precedence.

Not to mention what has happened since Israel was formed and how it has taken more and more land to get to where we are today.

If Israel is behaving appropriately in its behaviour, than there is no argument to denounce Putin for his actions on Ukraine. (A fact that several in power in the US and EU have failed to grasp)

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456790#Comment_121456790

What is the cut-off date?

We Irish are claiming land occupied by our ancestors 800 years ago and currently in the possession of the British. If the Israelis can't claim from 2000 years ago, how can we have constitutional provisions relating to 800 years ago?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458534#Comment_121458534

I don't think the shinners will get in, their popularity has reached its peak. So you won't have to listen to our (former) child killers criticise your current child killers (Israeli army).

political analyst

Some of the women who were murdered by Hamas were also raped before they were murdered. Why did the UN Women group take until 1 December to condemn Hamas's crimes?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458539#Comment_121458539

Sorry, did Ukraine invade Russia and slaughter its citizens?

Must've missed that. When did it happen? /s

Those older than Israel are pretty elderly at this point; sure, some might be politicians, they've seen plenty I'm sure. But I don't think they're actively making decisions guiding Israel's war on Hamas.

And, I stand by my statement that most countries are formed in violence. No where did I use that as an excuse for those countries behaviours. Just pointing out its a meaningless point to make, since we're no longer in 1948 (or 1916 or 1776 or whatever.)

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458561#Comment_121458561

Sorry, did Ukraine invade Russia and slaughter its citizens?

Again with the BS that this conflict originated out of thin air on Oct 7th.

Israel killed on average 12 Palestinians for every Israeli killed each year for the last 3 years (including 2023 up to end Sept).

If Hamas' attacks on Oct 7th are justification for Israel killing about 20K Palestinians since then, can you explain to us why with the death tolls the Palestinians have suffered above, they, whether in the form of Hamas or whatever, is not entitled to defend itself.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458634#Comment_121458634

How was Hamas' invasion on the 7th defending itself? How is Hamas' endless rocket barrage defending itself?

If Hamas is justified in whatever they do as 'defense,' then so is Israel, correct?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458634#Comment_121458634

All of this talk about the massive threat Hamas supposedly poses to Israel and yet scarcely a single Israeli citizen has died or been harmed since the October 7th atrocities. How come we're not hearing about dozens or hundreds of Israeli deaths every day, with this monstrous and existential threat to their very existence on their borders?

brickster69

US imposes visa sanctions on Israeli settlers. Better late than never i suppose.

https://www.barrons.com/news/us-imposes-visa-sanctions-on-extremist-israeli-settlers-over-attacks-b34e3394

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458663#Comment_121458663

You've introduced the concept of defense as a justification for the killing of people in this post when neither my post nor the one I was responding to. That is curious, like you immediately realized there is no justification and so the goalposts had to be moved.

What Israel in Gaza is not defending itself. Ask yourself this, how would you feel, and how would you be motivated to act if your home was being bombed in this way with tens of family members being wiped out in many cases. If you were a 12 or 13 year old who saw your parents lying under the rubble of your home, what would your response likely be if someone said you could fire a rocket at the people who inflicted that suffering and loss on you?

US Secretary of Defense said as much at the weekend.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458548#Comment_121458548

They aren't my child killers. If I was Israeli I'd be voting for the opposition. I would probably be campaigning against the current Israeli government. If I was in Gaza and campaigned against Hamas I'd quite likely be murdered by them.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458680#Comment_121458680

Because the Israeli government care about their own citizens and protect them. The same can't be said about the government of Gaza.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458534#Comment_121458534

Does any terrorist organisations embrace purely political means because of a moral recalibration?I am sure the Jewish Terrorists Irgun didn't give up violence because they had a crisis of conscience. The likes of Yitzshak Amir never apologised for the murder of the Swedish diplomat he took part in. As for Sinn Fein, I doubt they will actually get into power. In the most recent poll most voters seem to favour the current coalition. Also if within the next 18 months the public perception on Fianna Fowls and Fine Gaels performance in areas like the housing issue changes for the better, then some voters who have graviated towards Sinn Fein may move away from them. Also if Fine Gael have learnt the lessons from the last election they will stick to focusing on the possible consequences for the economy if Sinn Fein are elected. That might be enough to persuade enough people not to vote for Sinn Fein.

Whatever happens, Sinn Fein won't have the numbers to rule outright and so in a coalition with Fianna Fail they will have to compromise and become a bit more centerist.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458663#Comment_121458663

Hamas started a war to get as many of its own people killed in order to derail the treaties other Arab countries were signing with Israel. It worked. It's a big success for Hamas. They care not a whit about the dead children on their streets.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458744#Comment_121458744

True, no terrorist organisation ever really embraces political means due to a moral recalibration. The only exception I can think of was Gusty Spence and  the Combined Loyalist Military Command.

I hope that SF don't get in. We've had enough economically illiterate populism in this country over the last 40 years. That and the people who actually run the party killed children, robbed banks, murdered Gardaí, ran protection rackets, licenced drug dealing and worse. That's why I see them as bedfellows of the PLO. I don't think they'll be as corrupt as the PLO as the institutions of the state are stronger here.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458738#Comment_121458738

Israel forces were directly responsible for the deaths of several Israelis on Oct 7th. Helicopter gun ships, tanks, machine gun fire from Israeli's fired in a panic killed many of their own citizens.

You know this.

AllForIt

BBC 6 o'clock news today focused on the rape of women during the Hamas terrorist attack, finally.

Not that that would mean anything at all to the hard leftist's, like Owen Jones etc.

Dohnjoe

Very tough reading from this BBC report on systematic rape that occurred with the Oct 7 attack

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181

"Several people involved in collecting and identifying the bodies of those killed in the attack told us they had seen multiple signs of sexual assault, including broken pelvises, bruises, cuts and tears, and that the victims ranged from children and teenagers to pensioners.

Video testimony of an eyewitness at the Nova music festival, shown to journalists by Israeli police, detailed the gang rape, mutilation and execution of one victim.

Videos of naked and bloodied women filmed by Hamas on the day of the attack, and photographs of bodies taken at the sites afterwards, suggest that women were sexually targeted by their attackers.

Few victims are thought to have survived to tell their own stories.

Their last moments are being pieced together from survivors, body-collectors, morgue staff and footage from the attack sites."

""I spoke with at least three girls who are now hospitalised for a very hard psychiatric situation because of the rapes they watched," Minister May Golan told me. "They pretended to be dead and they watched it, and heard everything. And they can't deal with it."

Israel's police chief Yaacov Shabtai said that many survivors of the attacks were finding it difficult to talk and that he thought some of them would never testify about what they saw or experienced.

"18 young men and women have been hospitalised in mental health hospitals because they could no longer function," he said.

Others are reportedly suicidal. One of those working with the teams around survivors told the BBC that some had already killed themselves.

Much of the evidence has come from the volunteer body-collectors deployed after the attacks, and those who handled the bodies once they arrived at the Shura army base for identification.

One of the body-collectors volunteering with the religious organisation Zaka described to me signs of torture and mutilation which included, he said, a pregnant woman whose womb had been ripped open before she was killed, and her foetus stabbed while it was inside her."

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458055#Comment_121458055

Not entirely true. The increase in growth in population due to Zionism did not occur until the First World War really and you can see the explosion between 1931/1947 even according to your link which I checked vs the Wikipedia one and are aligned. You can clearly see the demographics and growth and % on table: tried copying the other one too but it wouldn’t get all in one screen properly.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458113#Comment_121458113

Can you please state Hamas. Palestinians are not fighting a war right now. They are sifting through rubble, trying to find water, to stay alive. It’s really disingenuous of you.

Set Adrift

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458543#Comment_121458543

No one is claiming land occupied 800 years ago!! The Normans came 800 years ago and integrated! Clans like McSweeney and McDonnell arrived in Antrim and integrated, moved southwards too. Terence MacSwiney would be a gallowglass descendant.

There's a big difference in mass plantation where there's no integration, 1609 through the Cromwellian period and 17th century. But anyone who arrived here in those years don't need their title deeds. It's not a science, with regards to a cut off point.

I would say you'd still be resentful of someone who took your grandfathers place in 1948? Resulting in you being homeless, impoverished and lacking in education. Likewise if it was your father in 1967 or 1973. You can't tell me you'd be hunky dory with that.

Conflict resolution is a difficult business but you first have to recognise why every party feels the way they do.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458723#Comment_121458723

Wait, I thought you were the one who said:

"If Hamas' attacks on Oct 7th are justification for Israel killing about 20K Palestinians since then, can you explain to us why with the death tolls the Palestinians have suffered above, they, whether in the form of Hamas or whatever, is not entitled to defend itself."

So, Hamas is entitled to defend itself, and the October 7th attack was that? No goalpost moving, just trying to understand your point. Neither the October 7th massacre nor the enormous constant bombardment with rockets were defense in my view; they were offenses, the Oct 7th one coldbloodedly designed to maximize media coverage and engender international outrage at the expense of Palestinian and Israeli lives.

Set Adrift

And just to be quite clear, Hamas are absolute scum. Reading some of the atrocity reports from 7 October made me nearly vomit.

Violence begets violence and the innocent suffer the most. I really don't know what can be done. We were in such a good place in 1993.

What is really upsetting is what the holocaust has done to Jewish psyche. They will kill anyone who looks crooked at them with no hesitation. I'm not being racist when I say this. I imagine this is how any people, who went through, what they went through would react. It doesn't make people empathetic or the opposite of their tormentor.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458855#Comment_121458855

The Palestinians that are members of Hamas then. And it’s not a “war”. It’s terrorism they (Hamas) are engaged in.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458781#Comment_121458781

If Hamas hadn't of launched their terrorist attack, those Israelis would be alive, regardless of who killed them.

brickster69

Reuters seeing the light in it's reporting now. " Israel orders Gazan's to flee, bombs where it sends them "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlGmwCMETMs

Strazdas

I'd suggest one of the reasons Israel is hugely losing the PR battle is because of social media. In the past, they had western governments and the western media on board and could control the media narrative - not totally of course, but they were shaping many of the arguments.

In 2023, people can see dozens of horrendous new videos coming out of Gaza almost every day. Images speak far more loudly than a collection of right wing and far right cranks writing opinion pieces in the papers about how Israel is 100% justified in what it is doing and how Hamas and the Palestinians are monsters.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457658#Comment_121457658

Automated nonsense response - I can do it too - "Why are you justifying the targeted and deliberate torture and murder of Palestinian toddlers for entertainment by Israeli psychopaths, typical response from posters here"

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458991#Comment_121458991

I'm not sure believing videos coming from either side is sensible idea.

I would suggest perhaps not taking those videos as facts, and getting information from independent sources.

igCorcaigh

A good statement from Varadkar, I think. He could have gone further, but at least it's more than other comparable states have done.

1h ago

19.40 CET

Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has said that the ongoing Israeli bombardment of Gaza will prove counterproductive and is likely to make Israel less secure in the future.

Varadkar was asked about the renewed violence in the Middle East as he took questions in the Dail parliament on Tuesday, PA news agency reported. He said:

I don’t think anyone can find the current situation to be anything more than unbearable, quite frankly, to see thousands of people being killed and thousands of children losing their lives.

And while Israel has the right to defend itself, the actions that they’ve taken in my view, and that of the government, are disproportionate and will ultimately be counterproductive because we know from history that when people are treated in that way it strengthens their resolve.

He added that Israel “might achieve a military victory, but it’s very likely to be a strategic defeat in terms of their own long-term security.”

But he rejected calls for Ireland to impose sanctions on Israel, insisting such unilateral action would have no influence on Israeli thinking and would likely result in retaliatory steps against Irish exports from Israel and supportive allies.

“Sanctions are only effective when they’re done on a multilateral basis,” Varadkar said, adding:

If we go out on a limb and take unilateral actions, we’ll be listened to less. It might make us feel better, but it won’t do any good for the Palestinian people.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/05/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-news-idf-southern-gaza-attack-palestine-khan-younis#top-of-blog

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458794#Comment_121458794

At least one of the rape victims is still being held hostage. We all saw her being forced into a car with blood covered sweat pants on. Awful to think what she, and the other women hamas is refusing to release, have been going through. And still people on here peddle the disgusting hamas propaganda that the hostages were treated well.

Furze99

What Israel is currently engaged in is a massive dirty stain on humanity. Any reasonable person will conclude that it’s lost it’s right to exist in the pantheon of states anymore. It’s written it’s own warrant and made a massive mistake that will see it’s demise.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458978#Comment_121458978

The point was that the Israeli government cares for its citizens. Irrespective of the precursor to why Israel sent gunships to the area when they got their, they shot indiscriminately. They care more about killing Palestinians than they do about saving Israeli's. This is also why they delayed exchanging hostages until they had killed several thousand.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458794#Comment_121458794

Hamas are scum, and the full report will probably back up what was reported here but for 100% transparency (probably going to get slated for this regardless) you did cut the quote off before this paragraph

"The BBC has not been able to independently verify this account, and Israeli media reports have questioned some testimony from volunteers working in the traumatic aftermath of the Hamas attacks."

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459288#Comment_121459288

Absolute nonsense. Friendly fire type incidents occur in the fog of war in conflict after conflict

Any excuse for a Hamas supporter to sling mud at Israel and attempt at an utterly false comparison betwen how Israel looks after its civilians versus Hamas.

Not hitting Hamas after an attack like October 7th would have rewarded Hamas for taking hostages and would have just shown weakness and encouraged more hostage taking. That would not protect Israeli civilians - the opposite.

What you have presented is a pro Hamas conspiracy theory.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458892#Comment_121458892

Thankfully someone on this discussion who can see both sides.

The Hamas attack really was vile beyond belief, if even half of the sexual torture reports coming out now are true it is insane that anyone could think the attack was legitimate resistance.

At the same time, Israeli as a state is deeply traumatized and knows only brutal overreaction to any perceived threat.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458991#Comment_121458991

I think they are loosing the PR battle as people don't like to see 6000 children getting bombed by a civilised country with cutting edge weapons etc...

But there's also the recent OSINT that has proved invaluable in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It means people are well capable of translating a calendar on a wall to prove it's not a list of terrorists etc...

Then there's some interviews with Israeli officials and when questioned about evidence or lack of evidence they go on a rant talking about Holocaust denial. Pretty unhinged and reminiscint of Russian officials.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459433#Comment_121459433

Yes they don't do themselves any favours trying to make journalists and reporters out as being stupid. I wonder is this why so many reporters have been killed in Gaza, almost 80 now?

hotmail.com

Eurovision confirm Israel will take part in the 2024 competition.

I would expect momentum to grow for Ireland to boycott the event.

Strazdas

All of this sudden discussion this week in the media of rapes on October 7th has made quite a few observers suspicious. A cynic might suggest the regime knows it is taking massive criticism globally for its undoubted numerous war crimes in Gaza and is making desperate moves to try and shift the narrative away.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459433#Comment_121459433

Reddit is really only social media I read a fair bit of (other than this site) and their bot-game is tremendous there as far as I can see, very impressive - looks every bit as good as the Russians and the Chinese and the Indians IMO (all 3 have huge "human resources" and probably lots of mugs who will even do it for free by comparison - esp. the Chinese and Indians).

It has a whiff of serious desperation off it though, very like the thankless task of the Russian contingent while everyone can watch their army blasting cities, and ticking off a "bucket list" of war crimes.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459394#Comment_121459394

You can rant about the facts all you want, they are the facts. Israeli people at the festival have reported this. And I'll give you more to lose the run of yourself over.

Hostage families have repeatedly said that the Government is not doing enough to get their loved ones back and is instead prioritizing killing Palestinians.

Not only this, but Israel were told about the attack planned for the festival and didn't increase security to deal with it, or take any measures such as cancelling the festival.

And there's more, Nethanyahu said that Hamas were a key part in Israel preventing the development of a two states solution in the area. He of course knew what Hamas would do in order for this to be the case.

So there's 3 more ways in which Israel is not putting the safety of its Citizens above everything else as was claimed, deal with it.

And I've never said Israel shouldn't target Hamas, that's just another pet strawman genocide apologists roll out on a nightly basis to defend the indefensible so, yeah, you can have that back. Along with his brother strawman that Hamas cares more for its citizens than Israel does, another point I didn't make.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459594#Comment_121459594

Any comment about the actual rapes and sexual torture that were documented? Or you just want to bitch some more about how terrible Israel are to deflect away from Hamas being isis style terrorists?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459767#Comment_121459767

It's a clever propaganda tactic by the regime - rape of women is a highly emotive subject, almost a taboo topic and if one dares question the regime's narrative, they are immediately called a 'rape apologist' etc. They know exactly what they are doing here and who their audience is. It hardly seems a coincidence that there has been a flood of these rape accounts in the western media since Sunday, a full two months on from the October 7th atrocities.

What it does is stops people talking about the numerous war crimes and back to discussing October 7th again (also, the dehumanising of Palestinians yet again...they are nothing but savage beasts who hate women).