Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464587#Comment_121464587

Or the terrorists outside bombing it.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464601#Comment_121464601

Nope. How is it tarnising their reputation?

What reputation is being tarnished?

You state it but never explain it.

Your own posts seem to imply that it is valid to doubt and question doctors statement on such matters. You said they may not have had a clue. Or did so to protect themselves or their patients.

Given below comments from you why is it tarnishing their reputation to suggest they are either deceived or not being fully truthful?

And therefore it is entirely valid to question statements from sources in such a situation?

There is no way your statements below can be reasonably taken to mean that we should always accept as accurate statements from medical staff in such a situation

Eg You are assuming that they knew what was going on.

Eg They are between a rock and a hard place. Probably trying to save their patients from bombing attacks. They are in a very dangerous situation from two sets of murderers.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464218#Comment_121464218

The existential threat to the west comes from Israel committing genocide and western governments supporting it, meaning that trust in politics in the west will collapse and be exploited by people allied to Russia, namely Trump, the AFD in Germany, Le Pen in France and various other crackpots around Europe.

The existential threat comes from a collapse in the west's morals in order to defend interests. If you only defend interests, your moral failings will lead to your destruction from within. Any claim you have to be the upholder of what is morally right in the world falls away, it becomes laughable. This is what happened when the US and the UK invaded Iraq.

Supporting Ukraine when it was invaded by Russia was about supporting interests, but much more importantly it was about supporting morals. The cause of Ukraine had moral righteousness on its side. The cause of Israel and the rhetoric of Israel is basically the same as the cause and rhetoric of Russia. Morally bankrupt.

This is a disaster for the west. You cannot defend genocide and claim to be the upholder of what is morally right. Your supposed "values" have been shown to be a transparent fraud.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464569#Comment_121464569

This was long before the IDF was bombing them. This was when the IDF was threatening to bomb them, and they went on tv and denied there were tunnels or Hamas in the hospital, something which we now know was a lie.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464679#Comment_121464679

The existential threat predates October 7th and has nothing to do with Israel. First they will destroy Israel, then they will come for the West.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464646#Comment_121464646

At least there are live LGBTQ+ people in Israel. They wouldn't survive in Gaza.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464629#Comment_121464629

Did you even read the article you linked, beyond the headline? It says exactly what I did. No official source said "40 babies were beheaded" just that 40 were killed and some were beheaded. It was a conflation of 2 things which is now being used as some sort of gotcha to show that none of it happened.

 Marc Owen Jones, an associate professor of Middle East studies at Hamad Bin Khalifa University in Qatar who studies misinformation, told NBC News that he found that the source of the “40 babies beheaded” allegations largely stemmed from a viral Israeli news broadcast clip that did not specifically refer to the allegation. 

Nicole Zedeck, a correspondent for the privately owned Israeli news outlet i24NEWS, said in the video that Israeli soldiers told her they’d found “babies, their heads cut off.” The video has been viewed more than 11 million times on X, according to its view counter. In another tweet, Zedeck wrote that soldiers told her they believe “40 babies/children were killed.”

“Somehow those two bits of information were connected, the story became ‘40 babies were beheaded,’ and in the British press today, about six or seven newspapers had it on their front pages,” Jones said.

I don't think "it's ok to rip arms off babies". Not sure where you're getting that from. Please quote where I have said anything remotely resembling such a statement

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464641#Comment_121464641

I have no problem questioning any person but the original post spoke of one particular doctor and castigated the entire profession. Here is the bit i took exception to --

''I heard a Palestinian doctor on the radio this morning saying that the accusations of rape and abuse by Hamas during their attack was "black propaganda" from Israel. Even the cravenly pro-Palestinian leftie presenter on Moaning Ireland couldn't believe what she was hearing. I really don't see why we take the word of doctors, any doctors, above that of a plumber of baker. The job you choose to do doesn't make you more or less likely to tell the truth.''

It was ONE doctor yet he said '' we shouldn't take the word of doctors ''. Doctors. This from someone who seems to take the word of every Israeli politician as gospel.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464696#Comment_121464696

Only if the doctors actually knew. You have proof that they knew?

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464697#Comment_121464697

The notion that there is an existential threat to Israel from Hamas or Gaza or from Palestinians in general, is, quite frankly, bollocks.

It's as ridiculous as the notion that the Provos posed an existential threat to the existence of Britain or Al Qaeda posed an existential threat to the existence of the US.

The existential threat to Israel comes from within and that is appalling far right governance and Israel's descent as a state into being a barbarous monster. Israeli society is now tearing itself apart precisely because for decades now it has gone with corrupt demagogues and seductive easy answers and simplistic slogans over the real job of building peace.

That embracing of a Trump-like fundamental unseriousness was what enabled October 7th, along with its decades of treating Palestinians like shlt on their shoes.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464299#Comment_121464299

Ah be fair. If someone is all in on the Hamas propganda train they'll need to be extremely adaptable to keep up with all the contradictions as lie after lie is uncovered and the scramble to deny and retcon that the original lie never happened despite everyone having seen it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464835#Comment_121464835

"Do you condemn the crushing of babies skulls resulting in cerebral matter being squeezed through the skull cracks by the Israelis?"

Victim hierarchy I've heard of, but attempts at 'how a baby is killed hierarchy' is a new phenomenon with this current conflict.

NSAman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464567#Comment_121464567

You may want to ask architects Gershon Zippor and Benjamin Idelson from Tel Aviv about these tunnels.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464835#Comment_121464835

Nope, an Israeli soldier did not make the claim. It was 2 separate things that were conflated. 1. 40 babies/kids were found dead. 2. Some babies were beheaded. It's not that hard to understand. Read the article you posted yourself fgs. Despite the misleading headline, it does explain the conflation.

Here is the news clip in question. It's at the very start, and she doesn't mention 40 babies at all. That was a later tweet where she said she was told by the IDF that "40 babies/children were killed" NOT that they were beheaded. I can only surmise you are being deliberately obtuse at this stage in order to continue downplaying hamas' crimes on 7th October, which is the subject of this thread

https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1711697093151056355

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464845#Comment_121464845

The people constantly adapting are those who are pro-Israel. They went from "No way did Israel bomb a hospital" to "Yeah bombing refugee camps and hospitals is totally justified." Apparently, those who didn't go south when told to deserved to be bombed, but now those who went south deserve to be bombed.

The rest of humanity, ie. those with a functioning frontal lobe, are consistent in saying that Gazans shouldn't be collectively punished for the action of Hamas.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462720#Comment_121462720

I'm not the none hair spiltting. I pointed out that there was an insurgency. This was countered by someone saying that Israel was formed peacefully through a UN mandate.

It's hairsplitting to focus on one detail, the mandate, and ignore all the history that led to that point. I wasn't ignoring the mandate. I know it happened. My point was that israel, like Ireland was formed through an armed insurrection against a colonial power, the same as Ireland. And in both cases they were fighting the british.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462198#Comment_121462198

I watched a doc about him that Al Jazerra did. He managed to negotiate the release of 30k prisioners from german concentration camps, and 10k of them were jewish. And his assassin later became Ben-Gurions bodyguard.

He should have been recognised by israel as one of the righteous among nations. Those people who helped jewish people during the Holocaust. But instead he was murdered just after he arrived in Palestine and was never awarded that status because he was a neutral negotiator.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464818#Comment_121464818

Israel is still considered one of the gay friendliest societies in the world and Palestine, especially Gaza one of the least.

1980s Ireland on its most homophobic day was a gay paradise by comparison.

It would be like comparing what is currently happening in Gaza to 1980s Belfast, a tense situation with occasional killings and violence.

So we'll say that Gaza is suffering with sporadic violence at the moment.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464975#Comment_121464975

If thats what makes ye happy.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121463202#Comment_121463202

How is asserting that doctors are no more or less honest that people who do other jobs blackening them?

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121463304#Comment_121463304

Wow, not during the Rwandan genocide, not when a third of a million people were killed in Yemen, not when 600,000 people were being killed in Ethiopia, not when 600,000 people were killed and 12 million forcibly displaced in Syria, not when Russia invaded Ukraine an internally and externally displaced 14 million people and killed thousands and, finally, in the biggest war since the Second World War, not when 6 million people have been killed and 7 million displaced in the Congo... and that's only recently. No, the UN wades in on this one. Well done lads. What a great show of moral impartiality.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464524#Comment_121464524

I'm discussing the comments of a Palestinian doctor in the West Bank and his flat out denial that Hamas raped anyone on October the 7th, claiming that such accusations were lies and Israeli "black propaganda". Are you saying that he was being truthful? Why the craven adulation of doctors? Do you think they are somehow on a higher moral plain because of the job they do?

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464634#Comment_121464634

No they don't.

Anyway, lots of people make promises that they later break. We can all list doctors that have done bad things, just as we can all list solicitors and plumbers and teachers and priests and civil servants who have done bad things. The notion that a group of people is somehow more ethical than another group of people simply because of the job they choose to do is ridiculous. The notion that calling out an individual because of their behaviour blackens everyone who chooses to do the same job is also nonsense.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464601#Comment_121464601

Who said they did?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464729#Comment_121464729

Yep - We shouldn't take the word of doctors.

You literally just said "I have no problem questioning any person..."

Any person... regardless of whether they are a doctor or not.

And in earlier posts you listed multiple reasons why we shouldn't take the word of doctors as 'gospel'.

You are just proving their point and are arguing against yourself now and have to resort to whataboutery.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464729#Comment_121464729

Did you read what you quoted? I said that we shouldn't take the word of doctors above that of people who choose to do a different job. I hold the same view on taking the word of people of a particular ethnicity, nationality, skin colour or religion over that of a different ethnicity, nationality, skin colour or religion.

Do you think that doctors are more ethical and honest by virtue of the job they do? Is there a hierarchy of jobs and ethics? Is a Cobbler more honest than a Pipe Fitter? What way does it work?

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464900#Comment_121464900

No, I understood. It's just that it doesn't address the question I asked or further your argument in any way.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464907#Comment_121464907

This is why the claim made earlier that if Hamas release all the hostages the war would soon end is incorrect. It's clear Bibi for his own sake is intent on continuing the war. I get the pressure will come on from America to end the war, but without the threat of real tangible consequences- the cutting off of us aid to Israel- Bib will just carry on the war to try and ensure his own survival.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465223#Comment_121465223

I think you're right. he really is a loathsome person.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465106#Comment_121465106

It's definitely friendlier than Gaza or saudi (To be fair, probably everywhere is better than Saudi) but claiming Israels one of the best in the world is a stretch. I remember reading about pride parades that had to be cancelled because of threats from right wing Christian, Islamic and Jewish groups. There's three different religions there that hate gay people probably enough nutjobs in all three to threaten the safety of gay people.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465223#Comment_121465223

Yep. The hostages are only one part. He needs to insure that there's no danger of further attacks. And for him, and apparently the majority of the Israeli population, that means the complete destruction of hamas. I think it's also coupled with a belief that if they hammer the people of gaza hard enough, it will break their will and prevent hamas regaining strength. That's a crazy idea to me. There's so many dead and probably tens of thousands maimed. Even if the population of gaza hated Hamas, this onslaught will just radacalise so many more.

We've seen what it looks like here in Ireland. Events like bloody sunday managed to kill a peaceful civil right movement and drove support to the IRA. Even if Israel kills every single member of hamas, a new armed resistance movement will arise because of the pain and suffering that's being inflicted on the people of Gaza.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465243#Comment_121465243

Yes, religion and tolerance don't mix. How could they?

Tel Aviv has a thriving gay scene with lots of gay bars and a big pride parade. A close friend of mine has been there a number of times and he's very camp. In his own words, he's "riddled with gay". Interestingly it seems to be where gay Palestinian Arabs are drawn to.

brickster69

“the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465257#Comment_121465257

Yes,each war has led to a rise in popularity for Hamas. Maybe the belief in Israel is this time it will be different, but Bibi's plan to have security control over Gaza indefinitely would indicate they know well it will be otherwise. Yitzshak Rabin, the former military man, realised that in order to achieve real long term security you can't pulverise your way to it. As we know Bibi doesn't really want a political solution to this conflict, so the last thing he wants is moderates to take over in Gaza if Hamas are no longer in control of Gaza

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465319#Comment_121465319

Oh no, a "check your privilege" person.

brickster69

Borrell calls on all states to back Guterres call for an immediate ceasefire.

Israeli ambassador calls for Guterres to resign ( again )

UAE already has tabled the motion.

https://www.politico.eu/article/josep-borrell-antonio-guterres-eu-backs-un-call-humanitarian-cease-fire-gaza-israel-hamas-war/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465313#Comment_121465313

Bomber Command under Arthur 'Bomber' Harris had a deliberate strategy of terrorising the German population by bombing civilian parts of the cities. We're not seeing anything different here (the one major difference perhaps is that the international community is fully aware this deliberate bombing of innocent civilians is completely forbidden under international law).

cheese sandwich

Obviously Shatter is entitled to criticise the government, but I think it is inappropriate for a former Justice Minister to be attacking the Irish government in the media of a foreign country - and particularly one that is clearly trying to forment negativity towards this country at the moment

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/12/06/former-minister-alan-shatter-criticises-irish-government-and-media-in-jerusalem-post-article/

Tell me how

It's worth noting and summarizing what happened here over the last 36 hours or so.

Various posters managed collectively to paint the picture that the worst events that have happened in the middle east in the last couple of months was the rape of women on the Oct 7th. It's not the rape that is the issue, if it was solely that alone, they'd acknowledge Israeli capabilities to commit similar crimes. Its the fact that it was done to Israeli women and any crime that is inflicted on Israeli's is orders of magnitude more serious than anything that might be done to any Palestinian.

I don't know if they are that concerned to the wellbeing of Israeli's as a matter of course, for some that probably is the case. But for most, my view is that it is because their opponents in this conflict are Muslim Arabs and so are lower in importance than Jewish whites and so the evil party is identified.

I know what I am saying, I don't say it lightly, but to not say it would be to not advocate for the community that is literally being butchered as we talk about it abstractedly (at least some do) on here. Also it would be allowing a particular narrative misaligned with reality to dominate. That is still largely happening given the views of western governments towards the conflict, but still, what else can I do only challenge it.

I've been reading similar to what I've read in the last 36 hours for weeks now as people both ignore the suffering of Palestinians, and call anyone repulsed by Israeli genocidal intent a Hamas Terrorist Sympathiser for having the audacity to call Israel out on its actions. As well as the rapid fire use of antisemitism and holocaust denier accusations which are utilized to incredible effectiveness to stifle being held to account.

And as this 'discussion' carries on, Israel is continuing to displace, target, bomb and kill Palestinians. It is intending to flood whatever tunnels are there with sea water which will have significant ecological impacts. It's leaders is pushing plans to 'thin' what remains of the Gazan population and influential commentators within the country are calling for them to annex it completely.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465539#Comment_121465539

He's around in Irish politics for a very long time and I don't think people had any particular opinions on him, but he has exposed himself as a full blown Zionist in recent weeks - giving really hawkish and hardline statements in support of Israel.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465539#Comment_121465539

I think he is entitled to his opinion and I don't think the Israeli will any time soon have a good opinion of us. The Israeli press seems to be one hundred percent behind the slaughter of innocents in Gaza so I'm not really bothered what they print about us.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465606#Comment_121465606

Israeli media and public disliking us is arguably a good thing. Even if one ignores the claims of genocide, they clearly seem to have moved into the 'terrorist state' category.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465733#Comment_121465733

What's far worse than defending the Israeli's ripping the limbs off babies and crushing the skulls of babies?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465593#Comment_121465593

He probably puts value on the lives of his own community , and society.

That, while normal in most of the world, and once here in Europe is not the case for many now.

I think that is a key difference, people don't understand why Jews there value their own society, families and future.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464818#Comment_121464818

Ah here, we are reaching nonsensical levels when people are trying to make out that tolerance of LGBTQ+ is somehow similar between Gaza and Israel. The Hamas regime in Gaza treats gay people far far worse than anything ever in Ireland. Iran, Saudi and Yemen are the closest regimes to Hamas, and all have the death penalty for homosexual acts.

Next you'll be telling me that Gazan courts requiring women to get the permission of a man before travelling were only a bit of fun.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465804#Comment_121465804

It's all nonsense and diversionary tactics. If you heavily criticise Israel for its actions, it must mean you are a Hamas supporter and in favour of October 7th.

What if Hamas and the Israeli government are both evil and rotten to the core?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465837#Comment_121465837

I think the world would be a better place if we put the same value on all communities, on all innocents lives. Israel is not doing that.

You can take a swipe at European values, but why you would do it in this instance, in defending Israel who have killed 6k kids in the last month I dont know.

I think we can understand well why the Israelis are doing what they are doing.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465798#Comment_121465798

"It would be like if people in Ireland started executing all Algerian's because of the recent stabbing."

No it wouldn't. That's a nonsensical comparison.

"The response from Israel is maniacal."

I agree.

"They've killed/ murdered (I would lean to the later description) over 6,000 children. It's very difficult to read or understand the opinions being published by many posters here. I cannot imagine laughing at or dismissing the trauma of a family Israeli or Palestinian that has had a child killed in this war and yet many posters seem to think such things are acceptable as regards Palestinian's. I can only presume they have never been friends with a Palestinian"

I haven't read any posts here where people have laughed at or dismissed the trauma of a family of a dead child. Can you point me to one please?

What I have read is a discussion about which side is most culpable for this conflict, what constitutes a proportionate response and the legitimacy or otherwise of the State of Israel.

In my view there is no evidence that Israel is committing or attempting to commit genocide. I think there is increasing evidence that they are seeking to ethnically cleans Gaza. I'm not sure where the line is for what constitutes a proportionate or disproportionate response but I'm sure that Israel is well past it.

I am sure that the only thing stopping Hamas from committing genocide is their lack of the means to do so but Israel are by far the more powerful side and so have a far greater ability to inflict damage and death therefore they are the ones whom it is incumbent open to act with restraint.

I agree that the action of the current Israeli government pose a far greater threat to their future existence than the actions of Hamas. I think that the anti Muslim sentiment on the right in the US, and the embodiment of the racist xenophobic Christian Right in the US has caused a significant shift to the right in Israeli politics. Christian and Jewish fundamentalism has found common cause in their hatred of Islamic fundamentalism.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464845#Comment_121464845

So it seems. We had one poster who wants me to prove the doctors were lying, that they actually knew about the tunnels!!!!!

Think about it. First there were no tunnels, then there were tunnels built by the Israelis but not under the hospitals, then there were tunnels built by Israelis under the hospitals that Hamas were not using for operations, then there were tunnels built by Israelis under the hospitals that might have been used for operations but there is no evidence to prove it, now we have the position that there were tunnels built by Israelis under the hospitals that might have been used for operations but there is no evidence to prove it and the doctors who have been telling us from the start that there were no tunnels may have been unaware that there were tunnels even though they were built by the Israelis decades ago and have signs of recent usage!!!!!!!!!

There are serious questions about what the Israelis are doing, but the non-stop barrage of ever-changing Hamas propaganda on here promulgated 24/7 by a small selection of posters is not allowing those serious questions to be discussed rationally.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465872#Comment_121465872

In my opinion the values of liberal secular democracies, EU values, which are aligned with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (it's 30 short articles and worth a read) are superior to values derived from ancient tribal writings. Therefore I thing our values are superior to those in Gaza and Israel and, for that matter, the USA. That doesn't mean we get to force our values on others.