Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467816#Comment_121467816

You're going to have to explain what you mean here, and why I should not interpret this as you calling me a holocaust denier.

If that is what you are doing, give a post number or link to something to justify you making this claim.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468382#Comment_121468382

Yes, sadly I suspect that this is the core of the problem. To be sure, Hamas have made it very clear that their conflict with Israel will only be settled with the complete destruction of one or the other.

During World War 2 for example, the land war alone levelled many cities and air bombing by both sides, but in the later stages by the Allies against Japan and Germany were extensive. No doubt civilian deaths were extensive, but with the exception of the bombing of Dresden and the atomic attacks against Hiroshima and Nagasaki, nobody really had a problem with that. Why is it just the Jews that have to fight with one hand behind their back against an enemy bent on their annihilation?

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469070#Comment_121469070

Because they depend on foreign support for their survival?

If they lose the support of the US or European populations ,what have they left to defend themselves with?

Right and wrong go out the window when you have to contend with the possibility of physical extermination or wholesale eviction.

They have the upper hand against their nearest neighbours (the Palestinians and their "representatives"/goalers) but if the neighbouring countries smell blood is it not possible that they would combine to find a second "final solution" for the Israelis?

Snooker Loopy

The mental gymnastics needed to justify a genocide are reaching Nadia Comaneci levels.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469195#Comment_121469195

Genocide? You mean what the Gazans, Iranians, Hezbollah etc would do to the Jews if they got the chance?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467765#Comment_121467765

Yugoslavia?

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469223#Comment_121469223

Genocide like Israel is actually perpetrating right now.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469070#Comment_121469070

But how on earth can Hamas 'destroy' Israel? They have a poorly armed militia of around 30,000 men and have no army, navy or air force. Even on the day when they were able to inflict the peak possible damage on Israel (October 7th), they managed to kill only around 1000 Israeli citizens. Talking about them 'annihilating' Israel or being an existential threat to its very existence is crazy, off the wall stuff.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469216#Comment_121469216

What sickens me and worries is that there are people championing all this while having children of their own. That's scary.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469289#Comment_121469289

They do have extensive international support, from Iran and indirectly Russia (it's no co-incidence that the 7th of October is Putler's birthday) and groups like Hezbollah in the North.

But your argument seems to be that just because they might not be able to kill all the Jews in one day, they're not really so bad, and Israel should just learn to live with them firing rockets into Israel and planning large-scale attacks on Jewish civilians a regular basis?

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469223#Comment_121469223

Sick in the head.

StarryPlough01

'America sets a deadline for Israel to end the war on Gaza'

Jordan News

last updated: 21 h ago

America sets a deadline for Israel to end the war on Gaza - Jordan News | Latest News from Jordan, MENA

"WASHINGTON – The official Israeli broadcasting authority reported on Tuesday, that the administration of U.S. President Joe Biden has set the beginning of next year as a "final" deadline for the war waged by the occupation on Gaza to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

"As reported by Al-Ghad Newspaper, the Israeli channel, on its "X" website, pointed out that this will coincide with the start of internal elections in the Democratic Party to choose the party's candidate for the U.S. presidential elections.

"The channel also reported that the United States has also requested an "immediate" increase in the entry offuel into Gaza.

"The same source reported on Monday, that Netanyahu confirmed to Knesset members and American officials that there will never be a Palestinian Authority in Gaza.

"Netanyahu stated on Tuesday that his government has allocated a budget for a full month amounting to 30 billion shekels (*$9 billion*) to cover the needs of the war and its repercussions, describing it as a "large budget," at a time when the Israeli economy is going through a real "paralysis," incurring daily losses estimated at hundreds of millions of dollars.

[...]

Starry:

Recent footage of stripped men indiscriminately taken by IDF is reminiscent of Iraq’s #Abu Ghraib footage. Some of these men are news correspondents.

It seems so long ago now, but history is repeating itself in more ways than one:

I attended a protest in Boston around the democratic primary convention to nominate presidential candidate John Kerry. His platform wasn’t any different than Bush’s as far as foreign policy went regarding Iraq. John Kerry was all for the war in Iraq - go for the ride. Kerry offered no real choice: Tweedledum and Tweedledee. This was before US realised Iraq was a big mistake. Now everyone admits it was a gross error.

Boston’s free speech zone for protestors was a specially constructed cage - how’s that in regard to civil liberties. We protestors refused to enter this dangerous death trap (cage) located several hundred metres away from the convention centre where our march ended.

StarryPlough01

Starry: Independent website Mondoweiss.net reports on apparent complicity in Pro-Israeli Propaganda from Human Rights Watch during temporary ceasefire

And…

“Human Rights Watch’s double standards put Palestinian lives at risk​"

"Amid calls for the extension of the truce and a permanent ceasefire in Gaza, HRW decided to publish a misleading report on the targeting of Al-Ahli Hospital on October 17 without conducting a genuine investigation or providing conclusive evidence regarding their speculations.​"

‘Findings’ without evidence: Human Rights Watch’s report on the Al-Ahli Hospital attack’

'Human Rights Watch’s misleading report on the Al-Ahli Hospital attack was published without a genuine investigation or conclusive evidence. Such double standards are putting Palestinian lives at risk.'

By Soheir Asaad, Muna Haddad and Rania Muhareb December 5, 2023

‘Findings’ without evidence: Human Rights Watch’s report on the Al-Ahli Hospital attack

....

"Despite drawing on inconclusive evidence, not having had access to the scene, and concluding that it could neither “confirm” nor establish its finding “with precision,” HRW insinuates that the attack on Al-Ahli “resulted from an apparent rocket-propelled munition, such as those commonly used by Palestinian armed groups.” Yet, it maintains that it “has not been able to conclusively identify” the munition in question and that a “full investigation” is needed. One is left to wonder why HRW would publish such a report at all if there is insufficient evidence to draw conclusions regarding the Al-Ahli attack.

Speculation over evidence​

"Despite lacking conclusive evidence, the Al-Ahli report makes dangerous insinuations, the implications of which are severe in a context where HRW has acknowledged that lives literally “hang in the balance.” Riddled with speculative and vague language, the report fails to provide links or detailed explanations and analysis regarding the videos and photos reviewed. HRW admits it is unable to verify essential information and presents no new data or credible analysis beyond that already examined by professional groups. Indeed, Forensic Architecture, Al-Haq, and Earshot have cast “significant doubt” on the Israeli military allegation that the attack on Al-Ahli Hospital resulted from a rocket misfire, maintaining that “Israel has yet to provide any conclusive evidence” supporting this claim.

"HRW’s report effectively discredits Palestinian voices and international demands calling for an end to the attacks on Gaza. Even when referencing Palestinian lives lost in the Al-Ahli Hospital massacre, HRW dismisses the number of victims in an absurd manner, claiming it has looked at “images” that “display between 65 and 75 body bags, rolled-up carpets, and bodies.” This is clearly not a valid method or tool of any sort to challenge the veracity of Palestinian “casualties” reported on the ground. HRW even questions “whether all of these victims were from the Al-Ahli explosion.”

Starry: ^ Essential to read above article in FULL. ^

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469223#Comment_121469223

Whataboutery - Having to use your imagination level.

Snooker Loopy

There are something like 1.7 million Palestinians in Israel. It's a fundamentally contradictory and ludicrous view to say on the one hand that Palestinians in Israel are peaceful yet claim the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank somehow have an animalistic desire to genocide Israeli Jews out of existence.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467637#Comment_121467637

You completely misunderstood my post and have made a fool of yourself since and you accuse me of deflection? Really?

I'll ask you again; why do you think that saying that doctors as a cohort are no more or less honest than plumbers as a cohort blackening the name of doctors?

Snooker Loopy

I think it is a fair question to ask Jews and indeed non-Jews outside of Israel who support the abomination Israel is inflicting on Gaza: How does what Israel is doing benefit the lot of Jewish people outside of Israel?

I think it’s also a fair question to ask the minority of pro-Palestine people whether Muslim or non-Muslim who have expressed support for the abomination Hamas inflicted on civilians in Israel on October 7th (in society, not a reference to this forum): How does expressing support for what Hamas did benefit the cause of Palestine or indeed the lot of Muslims in the west?

Snooker Loopy

A national suicide of the Israelis’ current political and cultural ethos is precisely what is needed for peace.

If that seems inflammatory…

https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1143107508929728512

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469654#Comment_121469654

But they're definitely not genocidal.

No sir, most definitely not.

This is just their ambassador to the UN calling for the death of Palestinian and Cultural ideals.

StarryPlough01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469460#Comment_121469460

I found this quote from White House national security aide Jon Finer(Reuters):

‘US has not given Israel firm deadline to end Gaza operation -White House aide’

By Humeyra Pamuk, Arshad Mohammed and Jonathan Landay

December 8, 2023

US has not given Israel firm deadline to end Gaza operation -White House aide

“WASHINGTON, Dec 7 (Reuters) - The United States has not given Israel a firm deadline to end major combat operations against Hamas in Gaza, and if the war ended now, the Islamist group would continue to pose a threat, White House national security aide Jon Finer said on Thursday.​

"We have not given a firm deadline to Israel, not really our role. This is their conflict. That said, we do have influence, even if we don't have ultimate control over what happens on the ground in Gaza," Finer told the Aspen Security Forum in Washington.​

Starry: ^ The White House has a lot more than "influence".

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469348#Comment_121469348

They are evil but Hamas are hardly Nazi Germany or the Empire of Japan per your post that seems to implicitly put out a call on a public forum for Israel "solve" the problems once and for all by inflicting end of WW2 levels of death and destruction.

The lives of everyone in Gaza are in the IDFs hands and always have been. Israel can kill almost everyone in Gaza if they want to and suffer no casualties from Hamas, no battle, just a slaughter.

If you are talking about threat to Israel from the wider Arab world where a lot of people hate them, or from likes of Russia, on former, even going as far as nuking Gaza won't help with this, as Israel is a small country that is outnumbered.

On latter, Netanyahu has said in past that Putin is a great friend, has used his image in Likud election materials! Israel has welcomed Russian Oligarchs and their large bags of money with open arms as they flee the Western sanctions, and refused to even sell Ukraine weapons to help defend itself afaik let alone donate them.

Odd behaviour if Israel thinks Russia is a threat to their survival. (edit: I realise that Israel do not wish to provoke Russia unnecessarily, they really don't need more enemies, but I think their actions go beyond that.)

Snooker Loopy

Human lives are so damn inconvenient.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469223#Comment_121469223

Do you even know any Palestinians or Iranians? Talk about a sweeping statement. Complete ignorance.

brickster69

Last chance for the security council to do it's job today, if vetoed then the only possible legal option left is to to sideline the security councils opinion and take it to the General assembly for a binding decision. If not complied with then multilateral sanctions and the use of peacekeepers can come into force.

Resolution not released yet, but seems to call for the immediate release of hostages held by Hamas, a total humanitarian ceasefire and aid allowed in unrestricted.

Israeli Foreign Minister Eli Cohen on Wednesday said Guterres’ tenure was “a danger to world peace” after he invoked Article 99

On today's vote the United States, Israel’s most powerful ally, which vetoed one of the earlier draft resolutions and rejects the idea of a ceasefire, has said a new resolution from the council at this stage would not be “useful.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/08/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-gaza-palestine-idf-civilians-blinken?CMP=share_btn_tw#top-of-blog

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469604#Comment_121469604

I agree but doesn't that also mean that Israel isn't committing genocide in Gaza?

I can see how the claim can be made that they are ethnically cleansing the area but if the Palestinian Arabs in Israel and the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza are the same ethnic group then the accusation of genocide doesn't stack up. It doesn't however lessen the brutality of what's happening or the tragedy that is unfolding.

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469741#Comment_121469741

It's not exactly a secret of Iran's very open hatred for Israel. They don't regonise the right for Israel to exist with the hardliners often expressing the need to wipe it off the map. Despite Israel supported Iran during the Iran-Iraq war, not that the middle east conflict makes any sense anyway.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467870#Comment_121467870

I was talking about his frequent attacks on business owners but it's way off topic so probably best to leave Micky D to frolic in the Park in the the warm cocoon of his own awesomeness.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469864#Comment_121469864

Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. You can deny it all you like but it won't change the reality.

In every actual genocide there will always be shameless deniers like you.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469915#Comment_121469915

How is killing some of an ethnic group but explicitly not killing another significant proportion of that group genocide?

I know you like to throw the term around because it's emotive and you are appalled by what Israel is doing in Gaza. I'm also appalled by what they are doing, I think most people are, but it's an inaccurate characterisation to call it genocide. Words matter and accuracy of language matters.

"In every actual genocide there will always be shameless deniers like you."

Crass Trumpian generalisations like that just makes you sound hysterical and childish.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469741#Comment_121469741

Yes, it would be more accurate to say the governments of Iran and Gaza and Hezbollah as all three have the destruction of Israel as an official policy and objective. I'm sure many people in Iran and Gaza just want a peaceful life and could find a way of living with their neighbours.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469195#Comment_121469195

If Hamas had Israel's military capability you would more than likely have a perfect 10 on the genocide scale...

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469974#Comment_121469974

How is killing some of an ethnic group but explicitly not killing another significant proportion of that group genocide?

From the UN, Bold is the relevant part in relation to your question

Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part. In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467833#Comment_121467833

So babies are the masterminds?

I agree. Better to put them down before they can walk.

Tell me how

These IDF soldiers go beyond the simple use of the 'From the River to the sea' phrase to say that they will not stop even if the world awks them to.

https://twitter.com/HotSpotHotSpot/status/1732771274051502226?t=LjV7hHLmCtac4cODUi0ocg&s=19

brickster69

Ireland to co-sponsor today's vote at the UN

https://twitter.com/MichealMartinTD/status/1733052837490216965

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469604#Comment_121469604

Perhaps the displaced Palestinians of Gaza would do worse now than to gather their worldly possessions up and march en mass into Israel and demand to settle there.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121470010#Comment_121470010

THE SPECIFIC “INTENT” REQUIREMENT OF THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE: The definition of Genocide is made up of two elements, the physical element — the acts committed; and the mental element — the intent. Intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group, though this may constitute a crime against humanity as set out in the Rome Statute. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. Source

I can see the case for accusing Israel of crimes against humanity but not genocide. Again, that does not lessen the destruction or suffering but in my opinion the accusation of ethnic cleansing is more apt.

pjordan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468210#Comment_121468210

The IDF also killed academic, writer and BBC and NYT contributor Refaat Alareer and reportedly his family in a direct (and one would expect directly targeted strike) yesterday. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refaat_Alareer

One would have to wonder at the motivation behind this. Maybe it was deliberate because he dared to suggest that the Hamas attacks of Oct 7th were “”Justified” and not dissimilar to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising (the second point believe is not unreasonable comparison to make, that I’ve also drawn parallels too) or maybe this a a concerted effort by the IDF and Netanyahu to shut down any voices of any sort emanating from Gaza to the wider world, that might present any other narrative to the world other than that Israel’s current actions are a justification for the murder, rape and other atrocities committed by Hamas on 7th October. Even the bible only said an eye for an eye, I don’t recall it saying take 10+ for one…

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469348#Comment_121469348

Israeli response has been a gross overreaction. The equivalent would be an armed militia group in Nicaragua launched a terrorist attack on American soil, killing 1000 US citizens and the US responding by carpet bombing Nicaragua for two months, destroying or damaging 60% of the residential buildings, killing 20,000 civilians, displacing much of the population etc (an insane over response in other words).

brickster69

Name me one nation that has sent as many bombs which have killed and injured thousands of children ?

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1732917719090311522

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121470134#Comment_121470134

and the mental element — the intent. Intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.

Yeah, for me, they are guilty of this also.

There were articles in the news this week of Israeli spreading suggestions of thinning the Gazan population to start gaining tentative congress support for such a tactic. Nethanyahu invoked the Biblical reference of Saul being instructed to strike down all Amalek and being reprimanded for not doing so, when he directed comments to the Israeli Army as they started their ground attack on Gaza. A Mayor in some region near Jerusalem reacted to pictures yesterday of tens of Palestinians in their underwear with their hands tied saying that they should be bulldozed in to the ground. Israeli soldiers are not just attacking Gaza to target Hamas, they are planting Israeli flags and putting up posters and banners saying Israeli businesses will be coming soon.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469223#Comment_121469223

So genocide is okay if you get in there first?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469614#Comment_121469614

Yes your attempt at deflection, by even mentioning the other occupations, does not disguise your efforts to have the last remaining doctors who stayed with their patients and reported at first hand the pain and suffering inflicted on them is a disgrace. But it didn't work. Poor effort.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121470300#Comment_121470300

Sweet Jesus, it seems that you can't understand basic English or geography. I was quoting a doctor in the West Bank who denied that Hamas had raped anyone during the October attack and who described such claims as Israeli black propaganda.

Not, again, how is asserting that doctors as a cohort are no more or less ethical than plumbers an insult to doctors?

Strazdas

I notice even Daily Mail readers are disgusted by the images of Palestinian men being stripped to their underwear by the IDF and are sceptical that any of them are Hamas members. A PR own goal by the regime.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469348#Comment_121469348

Do you come up with scenarios that have no basis in reality in order to deflect from holding Israel to account? Russia is no threat to Israel. Bibi has spoken about his admiration in the past for Putin. Bibi has not helped Ukraine either . You might give a board exclusive and condemn Bibi for this. Although since you can't condemn the Israeli government for anything you'll conveniently ignore this.

Let this sink in,Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the world backed up by the world's most formidable army, no state is an existential threat to them in light of this. It is merely a convenient for you to keep pedalling this canard to deflect and avoid criticism of the Israeli Government's actions

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121470336#Comment_121470336

They simply don't care at this stage.

Their antisemite/nazi spiel is running thin at this stage(their government). People are no longer afraid to ask proper questions.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121470156#Comment_121470156

It's about suppressing and erasing truth.

Writers and academics can verbalise an oppressed people's pain in a way that packs a punch to people in the rest of the world. If you're carrying out a genocide, that's bad PR you.

Israel also murders Palestinian journalists and bans western journalists from Gaza because it wants to suppress truth.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121470287#Comment_121470287

Maybe I'm just getting old but I like to avoid hyperbole and assigning pejorative generalisations. I think inaccurate characterisation leads to inaccurate conversations. It reminds me of what Donald Trump does when he attacks the person rather than the point. I'm seeing a lot of that from Palestinian and Israeli sources and I'm seeing a lot of it here.

To criticise Hamas does not mean one supports Israel.

To criticise Israel does not mean one supports Hamas.

To question the accuracy or veracity of a source does not mean one is denying the event being discussed actually happened.

To question whether the actions of Israel in Gaza constitutes genocide does not mean one condones or agrees with the actions of Israel.

To question the word of a single Poster on social media does not mean that one doesn't believe anything posted on social media.

To question the word of a single doctor does not mean that one doesn't believe any doctor.

These are all basic logical assumptions that must be accepted by everyone in a discussion in order for that discussion to be anything more than a playground shouting match.

brickster69

Bibi accusing the ICC of antisemitism now. You couldn't make it up could you.

https://twitter.com/The_Real_Fly/status/1733052591750148574