Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473294#Comment_121473294

Israel are a terrorist state. Indefensible.

Ireland, in fairness to us were out in front with our condemnation. We seen this for what it was from the off. Israel using the Hamas attack as an opportunity to commite genocide of the Palestinian people. Others are now slowly beginning to follow.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473492#Comment_121473492

You do know that there are thousands of innocent people killed in wars, worldwide, continuously. no one wants innocent people killed, no innocents, not just children.

Why do you feel so strongly about this one in particular then? Is it just because Israel are so strongly defending themselves against constant terrorism? Do you support the terrorists?

Do you think Israel should maybe do nothing? Just allow Hamas to continuously attack them? Kidnap their people? Kill their people?

scottser

Said it a few weeks ago. Every day Israel continues its attacks on innocents is a day closer to the fall of the Netanyahu regime. Israel is going through a massive identity crisis that Hamas are exploiting. The best thing for Israel to do is announce a ceasefire. Only the most rabid psychopaths are justifying the ongoing slaughter.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473209#Comment_121473209

You think 15-20,000 Gazan civilians have died 'accidentally' in the space of eight weeks and not as a result of serious war crimes? From what I can see, the regime and its media aren't even denying the deaths or the numbers.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473564#Comment_121473564

How dare we hold Israel up to higher standards than some poor 3rd world country having a civil war with dumb bombs and dumb munitions.

Israel, with modern tech, capable of reducing civilian casualties to a minimum, yet their own PM admits they are not doing that. 0.5% of the population dead in less than 2 months. (for those on the 9/11 scale, it's the same as 1.6mil Americans)

American officials also surprised that 90% of the bombs dropped the first week were 2000lb bombs, as although they are accurate, they cannot be used to limit civilian casualties.

I can't recall any war in recent memory that civilian, especially children have born most of the casualties.

Was only a few weeks ago, people in defense if Israel were questioning the numbers, thank **** they are accepted now

Nobody is saying Israel should do nothing, but Israel is not under imminent threat. Hamas are not going to be charging into Israel on mopeds anytime soon. This is not self defense by Israel, they are well past that now.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473567#Comment_121473567

Of course they're not denying it, Why would they lie?

War does not equal was crimes. You think everything the Israelis are doing is a war crime, but you obviously don't know any international humanitarian law.

In an extremely high density area such as Gaza, with a population of over 2 million, that 15-20 000 people have been killed is actually amazing.

And don't think for a second that I am somehow condoning the deaths of innocent civilians, I am not. It's horrific to see. But not everything that happens in war is a war crime

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473488#Comment_121473488

Israel had some catching up to do, to keep those numbers up.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121472722#Comment_121472722

Here's a link for you, and it shows a tunnel. But make up your own mind. I've never doubted their existence not even for one second only the extent of them, their locations and what use Hamas made of them. And as for a Toyota 4x4 driving in one? It's not impossible even under these circumstances, but again, I'll wait and see. On the balance of probabilities' though, I'd say yes. Hamas was using 4x4's in the tunnels. Obviously, not in every tunnel, but for sure, they had to have means of moving their missiles /mortars etc.

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/video/news/israeli-military-release-gunfight-footage/

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473591#Comment_121473591

'We had no choice but to kill 20,000 civilians' is no sort of a defence to accusations of war crimes or massive breaches of international law. Many human rights lawyers have said Israel has carried out multiple violations of international law in the last eight weeks, as well as academics who have devoted their entire career to the study of war crimes.

StarryPlough01

Starry: UN Secretary General is setting up (Article 99 UN Charter) for a General Assembly vote to take action because the Security Council has failed to take action.

BREAKING… In international news it’s been reported that UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres is telling Security Council that they are complicit in slaughter because of inaction

Here’s the inaction:

'US vetoes resolution on Gaza which called for ‘immediate humanitarian ceasefire’

UN website:

US vetoes resolution on Gaza which called for ‘immediate humanitarian ceasefire’

8 December 2023. Peace and Security​

"The UN Security Council held an emergency meeting Friday morning New York time to discuss the catastrophic situation in Gaza. This follows Wednesday’s urgent letter by Secretary-General António Guterres – one of the most powerful tools at his disposal – urging the body to help end carnage in the war-battered enclave through a lasting humanitarian ceasefire. A resolution tabled late afternoon in the chamber calling for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire was vetoed by the United States."​

AND, FOR YOUR EASE OF REFERENCE:

Role of the General Assembly​

"In accordance with the General Assembly's "Uniting for Peace" resolution of November 1950 [resolution 377 (V)], if the Security Council fails to act, owing to the negative vote of a permanent member, then the General Assembly may act. This would happen in the case where there appears to be a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression. The General Assembly can consider the matter with a view to making recommendations to Members for collective measures to maintain or restore international peace and security.​

"This resolution was invoked only once in UN peacekeeping history, when in 1956 the General Assembly established the First UN Emergency Force (UNEF I) in the Middle East.​

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473590#Comment_121473590

can't recall any war in recent memory that civilian, especially children have born most of the casualties.

Really? You should do some research, World War 2 for example, approx 70-85 million people died, approx 55 million were civilians.

Bosnian war had approx 100,000 killed, 40,000 were civilians

Kosovo war, approx 13500 killed ( or still missing) , over 10,000 were civilians. Also 90% of kosovans were displaced during the war. NATO actually killed a few thousand civilians on both sides of this war with bombs they dropped, including Kosovo refugees.

There are plenty more wars you can check.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473621#Comment_121473621

Perhaps like in those two most recent cases you have referenced some international body should intervene to stop the slaughter of civilians.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121472666#Comment_121472666

That the tunnels exist is beyond question, that's for sure, and neither is the fact that Israel build the original tunnel(s) but there's different opinions about the actual sizes and locations. Some mention the figure in hundreds of Kilometers big as the London underground even. Like I've repeatedly said, we will have to wait and see, but there's one thing for sure, whatever Israel built, Hamas extended them.'

StarryPlough01

@tayto lover

Re your reply to Ulixes

"Yes your attempt at deflection, by even mentioning the other occupations, does not disguise your efforts to have the last remaining doctors who stayed with their patients and reported at first hand the pain and suffering inflicted on them is a disgrace. But it didn't work. Poor effort."

'UN Security Council 'complicit' in Gaza 'slaughter': MSF'

AFP / 08 December 2023

https://today.lorientlejour.com/article/1360273/un-security-council-complicit-in-gaza-slaughter-msf.html

"The UN Security Council is "complicit in the ongoing slaughter" in the Gaza Strip and must vote Friday to "lift the siege," the medical charity Doctors Without Borders (MSF) said.

"UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres convened an emergency Security Council meeting after two months of fighting, which has left more than 17,000 people dead in Gaza, according to the enclave's Health Ministry.

"MSF said the council must demand an immediate and sustained ceasefire and ensure unrestricted aid into the Palestinian territory.

"To date, the inaction of the United Nations Security Council and vetoes from member states, particularly the United States, make them complicit in the ongoing slaughter; this inaction has given license to the mass killing of men, women and children," MSF said in a statement.

....

______

Tayto lover - reply button not working at the moment (got a window with pink background saying 'problem' - but I'm sure problem will be resolved)

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473093#Comment_121473093

Is the US political system so in hock to Israel that it can no longer keep Israel in check? 

Short answer: Yes.

Israel is only country in the world which has a relationship with the US in which it holds all the power, not the US.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473626#Comment_121473626

I think you are right. Not sure how else it can happen right now.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473621#Comment_121473621

Yeah sorry I wasn't alive during WW2. The joy of being young?

More killed in Gaza (17k) than Kosovo (10K), with 81% displaced in Gaza in about 2 months. We still have like 9 months to catch up to that 90%.

To match the 40% civilian death toll in Bosnia and based on 17k civilian deaths in Gaza, you would need 25k dead Hamas.... do you really believe that?

You quote civilian deaths, my original point was the ratio of Children killed. In Gaza that's around 40%. I can't recall any war where 40% of deaths were children. I'm talking as a direct result of bombing etc... not over the years via disease and starvation (Gaza has a lot more death to deal with unfortunately)

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473635#Comment_121473635

But why would some international body intervene if it's a just war and only Israel acting in self defense?

And as some have pointed out..... only a 'small' number of civilian casualties?

amandstu

I see that the US has cast its veto in the Security Council calling for an immediate ceasefire.

What I wonder (if anything) might US have got in return for covering Israel's back?

Just a verbal commitment from Israel along certain lines that have not been made public?

What I wonder would be the consequences for Israel if US abandoned Israel in the UN?

Would she have to live with a Hamas that would probably speak for the Palestinians as a whole?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473644#Comment_121473644

I don't consider one age group of innocent civilians to be more important than another. All innocent civilians killed are exactly that, doesn't matter what age they are.

I didn't post numbers of civilian deaths as some kind of comparison, and I didn't realize they had to be within your personal memory. You said you didn't remember a war were civilians were the majority of the dead. I pointed out they are, or mostly 50/50.

you seem to want this war to be worse then others, it's not, they're all bad.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473647#Comment_121473647

How do you think it ends? How do wars end?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473668#Comment_121473668

I don't think the US got anything in return from Israel, it's just the US has backed Israel for so long they can't not back them despite what Israel are doing.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473669#Comment_121473669

No but when the civilian deaths are disproportionate on the side of women and children and not 'men of fighting age' it lends credence to deliberate targeting of civilian populations. If you drop a random bomb in Gaza, it would be hard to get the ratio's the IDF are getting, unless those bombs land on hospitals and refugee camps etc... places that mainly women and children would shelter in.

This is not a war.... it's a slaughter of innocent Palestinians.

Do you really think Israel is under imminent threat from Gaza and do you believe Israel are acting in self defense and limiting civilian casualties?

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473671#Comment_121473671

If US has no influence on Israel's behaviour(I think it does) then maybe they are motivated not to abandon an ally and thereby call into question their commitments to other allies that they have or wish to have.

I also wonder what would happen if the States did abandon Israel .

I think Israel would still fight its corner(and receive support worldwide)

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473670#Comment_121473670

This one? Quite possibly with Gaza being inhabitable and the West Bank fitting onto a postage stamp.

Kinda like this:

Tell me how

So on Wednesday this thread was dominated with discussion about rape as weapon of war, on Thursday it was dominated with discussion about Gay rights, and yesterday it was dominated with discussion about the trustworthiness of Drs.

Well played in all who achieved this.

A master stroke in deflection and refocusing of the discussion to limit conversation on the continued brutality of Israel as it once again shows chilling similarities with the experiences Jewish people suffered 80 years ago and Palestinians in Gaza today.

Whether its the US and UK representatives at the UN security council preventing a resolution to call for a ceasefire, German officials having people declare the Jewish state having a right to exist as part of immigration procedures, US Congress passing a law that says antizionism is antisemitism, US congressional hearings reacting to 3 Palestinians shot in Vermont with giving Jewish students a platform to say how hearing protests calling for a ceasefire is triggering for them, the BBC referring to a murdered poet as a 'controversial writer' or the posters on here who managed to focus the conversation away from acts of Genocide, you're all doing the same thing and doing so depressingly successfully.

Israel is a rogue state, carrying out a genocide, its able to do this in part because of all those above. Well done.

StarryPlough01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473616#Comment_121473616

UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres said:

7,000 Children have been killed by Israel in Gaza and 4,000 women

Tell me how

This is a picture that I've looked at before and always taken a moment to reflect on what it represents.

It is an art memorial on the shores of the Danube in Budapest, Hungary that represents the memory of the Jewish people who were massacred by a fascist militia 79 years ago this month.

Now, and in future, whenever I see or think of this memorial, which is very powerful, I will also think about the following image.

This was taken this week as IDF soldiers entered Gaza and arrested hundreds of men and stripped them almost naked, including their shoes before binding their arms and taking them away.

Israel PR said that these were all captured Hamas members except within hours reports emerged identifying some of the people as being journalists or even 1 working for a UN organisation.

Israel is doing more to erode the empathy people across the world has/had for the Jewish people and their historic suffering. I have a strong hatred for people who are using the fact of that suffering to excuse the Israeli PM, Government and Military behaving in ways which are very similar as to how those who persecuted the Jews enmasse behaved.

I've said it on here before, I'll say it again, that there are evil people isn't a surprise, that unfortunately there can be a time when a large group of them meet in the same place and gain power which allows them to act out their evil intent. That this would happen in the same lifetime of many who survived the persecution of Jewish people last century to see their own country speaking of and behaving towards another community in the ways we are seeing, is a surprise. Underlined by the fact that the Jewish people who survived the intent of the Nazis did so using the phrase 'Never Again' as a promise/hope that such suffering would not be experienced again.

But the worst and most depressing thing about these realities is that now, the persecutors of this intent in the 21st century, is the Government and Military of the Jewish state. And their biggest supporters are countries who watched what was being done to their people in the past and said that this must be stopped. Whatever the cost, it must be stopped. - Yesterday, these countries, the United States and the United Kingdom refused to call for Israel to halt the death and destruction it is inflicting on the Palestinians in Gaza.

Tell me how

John Hume, (RIP) a man who millions in Ireland should be thankful for is someone who would no doubt have had very strong views and opinions on what is happening and has been in happening in the middle east.

He was one of the architects and instigators of the peace talks that brought about the Good Friday Agreement and in acknowledgement of his work he shared the Nobel Peace Prize with his Unionist counterpart, David Trimble. He also won the Gandhi Peace award and the Martin Luther King award and consequently was the only person ever to win all three.

Aside from all his work during the process that led to the Good Friday agreement, some of his words during his Nobel acceptance speech when he said that 'Difference is an accident of birth' caught my ear. He went on to say that difference should be celebrated rather than feared, but it was these first 6 words that struck me and that I've often thought about.

The message in the phrase 'Difference is an accident of birth' is that often it is no more than because of where we are born or who we are born to that dictates who it is that we become. In Northern Ireland during the troubles, a baby was born in to either a Protestant or Catholic background and so the die was often cast for what their views would be, and how they would be viewed, for the rest of their lives.

Without saying this directly throughout the 80's and 90's John ultimately convinced people to see that there was nothing inherently wrong with people or to be feared about them but rather because of the circumstances of their birth they were being seen as being of a particular lesser worth or of a greater evil value. He was able to help people look beyond these forced circumstances to the individuals that were beyond them and to consider the type of world that was possible for all such people.

It goes without saying that an acceptance of this in the Middle East would be best for everyone involved, Jew, Arab, Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, and whatever else, but alas there is close to zero room for this sentiment in the area right now. But the point I did want to make about Hume's words was in relation to the current Israeli PM.

I have no doubt that if people like Nethanyahu or others in his party and military had been born and lived in Nazi era Germany in a non-Jewish community then they would have supported the practices of Hitler and his party. It is one of the greatest curses of religion, the amount of death and suffering that has been executed in its name on a foundation that has little more to do with anything other than the accident of birth that found people on all sides living their lives with the hands they were dealt rather than being free to plot their own destiny. The same goes for other religious fanatics, but watching Nethanyahu scream about antisemitism in the UN for having the audacity to investigate war crimes by Israel and watching how he has behaved and spoken about Palestinians really made me think of him in this context.

(As a side note, imagine if someone Like John Hume had had the ear of US Governments and Presidents for decades rather than the man who did so in Henry Kissinger, I think its fair to say we'd be living in a much more peaceful world)

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473756#Comment_121473756

This probably makes sense in your head.

No one is justifying bombing children.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473781#Comment_121473781

Do you think it is ok to bomb children if it results in the deaths of Hamas fighters and commanders?

brickster69

Good to see a few more European states back the ceasefire last night, shameful stuff from the G7 members.

https://twitter.com/majedbamya/status/1733253434571108757

ceadaoin.

Why does the responsibility for a ceasefire seem to fall entirely on Israel? Why isnt anyone calling for hamas to stop firing rockets, to stop the genocide rhetoric? People have short memories if they can't remember that barely a week ago, it was hamas who broke the ceasefire, it was hamas who didn't honor the terms of the hostage release, not to mention, it was Hamas who started this whole fight in the first place and they openly say they will do it again over and over. If there is to be peace, they need to stop also

ceadaoin.

hamas released a video earlier showing the dead body of a hostage who had clearly been tortured and mutilated, and then blamed Israel for breaking his hands and arms and gouging out his eyes before killing him. But God forbid some suspected terrorists have to strip to their underwear to check for weapons or bombs. War crimes! Why are Israel held to such different standards here? Again, a ceasefire has to come from both sides.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473894#Comment_121473894

Because Hamas are Angels. Its only self defence when they do it.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473728#Comment_121473728

And todays agenda is Israel = Nazi. Been a few days since this was wheeled out.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473894#Comment_121473894

Do you think calling for a ceasefire only applies to Israel ?

sock.rocker*

"Why are Israel held to such different standards here?"

Well generally, if you believe that your enemy is so bad that they deserve to be wiped out of existence, then it is obvious that you must hold yourself to a higher standard or logically you deserve to be wiped out of existence.

Israel is one of the world's most powerful nations militarily. The fact it could destroy all of Gaza and everyone in it in the space of a week means they hold every Gazan civilian's life in their hands. They control everything they have access to and have done so for over a decade. This means they have to hold themselves to a higher standard.

This is really basic stuff. You can't subjugate millions of people until they attack and then justify their complete destruction because of that attack.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121474003#Comment_121474003

Hamas will not accept a ceasefire, so people don't bother asking them, it would be like asking them to tolerate the existence of Jews, gay people or independent women.

It's so opposed to their belief system that to even ask would drive a wall of anger and violence from them.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121474019#Comment_121474019

While thousands of Gazan civilians are being killed in indiscriminate bombings, this constant posting describing why they deserve to die is rather crass.

sock.rocker*

The amount of Islamophobes who have co-opted this war as an avenue for their lust for Muslims to slaughtered is kind of amazing. It's so blatant as well talking about their beliefs and about how they're inferior because of IQ etc. And the sheer audacity of them to cry about antisemitism while they're masturbating to these videos of dead Muslim children.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473979#Comment_121473979

Yep, this is what Israel has done. Made comparisons with their greatest enemy valid conversation.

Right wing media in the US yesterday led with a townhall column saying 'there are no innocent Palestinians'. This was exactly the rhetoric used by Nazis to justify their killing of Jewish children.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121474019#Comment_121474019

But Israel are supposed to just roll over and bow before the glory of Hamas.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121474068#Comment_121474068

Its made it a popular playbook but not really valid but sure thats never mattered to ye.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473781#Comment_121473781

Israeli PM, Nethanyahu, Oct 14th (Link)

'No Innocent Civilians in Gaza', Israel President

GOP Representative, Brian Mast, Nov 01st (Link)

GOP REPRESENTATIVE DENIES EXISTENCE OF “INNOCENT PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS” AND TRIES TO HOBBLE AID TO GAZA

American Conservative Political Commentator, Mark Levin, Dec 8th (Link)

There Are No ‘Innocent Palestinians’

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121474084#Comment_121474084

"Israeli PM, Nethanyahu, Oct 14th (Link)

'No Innocent Civilians in Gaza', Israel President

"

Netanyahu is the PM, not President. That's Herzog, who didn't say what that headline said (here's the original article):

https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-president-says-no-innocent-154330724.html?guccounter=1

Doesn't matter much, both he and Netanyahu need to go yesterday.

Mark Levin is a Trump-filching extreme MAGA loon; there are lots of those in the US, I don't think Levin's particularly influential. Has it in for anyone that isn't him.

Brian Mast and his ilk are described here, which is a pretty good summary of US politics nowadays.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/11/republicans-for-war-crimes.html

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121474081#Comment_121474081

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck....... It's a duck.

Like don't get me wrong, its not exactly the same playbook, but the wish to remove a group of people entirely is the same, the rhetoric around their enemy is the same and actually converting thoughts and words in to actions are the same.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121474072#Comment_121474072

Hello Strawman.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473894#Comment_121473894

Both sides broke the ceasefire at different times . You are right Hamas is ultimately responsible for this war breaking out. Hamas if they are on the brink of military defeat may look for a way out, but as Bibi has said numerous times he is intent on inflicting a total defeat on Hamas, so he is unlikely to agree to a ceasefire even if Hamas were to offer one. It's in his interest to keep this war going, to stay in power and try and ward off the corruption charges. He and Sinwar have one thing in common ;they are both Psychopaths

The sooner he and Hamas are gone the better it may be for everyone. That's the only positive outcome that may arise from this complete clusterfuck

AllForIt

I think this image is beings used as if it's comparable to some kind of ISIS massacre where moments later they're all shot in the head or beheaded and thrown into a pit. They're only being arrested.