Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121480859#Comment_121480859

The trouble is you cannot, where one side is a guerilla force, and not fighting according to the Gva Conventions regarding soldiers being clearly identifiable. In my experience, and I'm not specifically talking about Hamas / Israel just now, but generally speaking, everyone from 9 to 90 can be a "Rebel". And while the actual fighters would generally be physically fit, and appear as such, the whole population would support the rebels. (And presumably the majority of Gaza citizens support Hamas? But there are stories trickling out about that support being far from 100%, but I digress) So the little old lady sitting in the shade is capable of reporting the location of the enemy, their Nrs and direction they are taking. Ditto, an 8- or nine-year-old can deliver a small bomb with a timer on it, and innocuously plant it somewhere the enemy will actually be or likely to be. And that's the reality. There was a song from the Vietnam War (Tom Paxton) goes something like this: - " Every night the local gentry slip by the sleeping sentry, they go to play at VC, in this little nightly drama, they put on their black pajamas' and come lobbing mortar shells at me" By morning the black pajama's were gone, and their dress was indistinguishable from the thousands of "civilian" Vietnamese. Same as Hamas in Gaza. The fact is that everything and anything can be used against you when you are the "Enemy " (in this case, the IDF, which is why they don't give a damn about any Geneva Conventions when doing a sweep to capture Hamas, and until its proved different, every Palestinian from 9 to 90 is a potential Hamas member. And that's how the IDF see them. So when I see posts on here about the IDF paying closer attention to killing Hamas, and avoiding the civilians, I wonder how they can do this? I'm still waiting for some one to show me the official Hama uniform.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121480803#Comment_121480803

stop now. You tried to paint me as a liar. Gardai regularly put people lying face down or kneeling on the ground. You said it doesn't happen, ever. I showed gardai training, putting people face down on the ground.

I know what I'm talking about.

We are finished.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481033#Comment_121481033

So no change there from before the war.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481000#Comment_121481000

Israel does not intend to simply eradicate Hamas:

'Erase Gaza': How genocidal rhetoric is normalised in Israel (newarab.com)

From the above:

"Moshe Feiglin, the founder of Israel's right-wing Zehut Party and former Likud representative in Israel’s parliament, has also called for the complete destruction of Gaza.

“There is one and only (one) solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima, without nuclear weapons,” he said.""

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481032#Comment_121481032

once again israel is not the jewish people and the jewish people are not israel.

i would advise against equating the 2 as it's a bad thing to do for obvious reasons.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481077#Comment_121481077

Well that fairly explains what is going on. Very chilling.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481046#Comment_121481046

I would say a lot of changes. I've seen quite a few non Zionist Jewish people trying to warn where all this is heading. Many of the loudest and most deranged cheerleaders for Israel and the IDF on social media are not Jewish and will therefore face no consequences whatsoever in their real lives, no matter how extreme or unhinged their posts become - it will be left to ordinary Jewish people to pick up the pieces.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481038#Comment_121481038

Well put and like me, struggling for an answer. I do agree that nearly anyone could be a combatant for Hamas. But I can't see the entire population (9 to 90) being a Hamas combatant? And yes, I understand why IDF would do what it does.

As a slight aside, Perfect Sense, Roger Waters (1992):

"The Germans killed the Jews and the Jews killed the Arabs and the Arabs killed the hostages and that is the news"

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481085#Comment_121481085

Depending on which sources/calculations you use, its likely that a plurality of the worlds Jewish people live in Israel. Jews - Wikipedia

So yes, your stance on Israel is very much overlapping with your stance on Jews by the simple facts of mathematics. And my stance is clear: I'm with the Jews and their right to exist wherever in the world they may live, including the worlds only Jewish state where waves of Jewish refugees have had nowhere else to go.

As for what happened in 1947/1948, the original Zionist plan was to have a very small state of Israel consisting primarily of Jewish-owned or unoccupied lands such as the Negev desert, with the local Arabs being welcome to stay in the new state, have the Arabic language recognised as a working language of the State etc. What happened after that was multiple and indeed ongoing efforts at varying degrees to eliminate the State of Israel and drive the Jews into the Sea.

Thusly in my view, what drives Israeli strategic thinking is the fact that they've been surrounded by mortal enemies since their founding, and that includes Gaza which became a terrorist military base within a year of them leaving it.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481162#Comment_121481162

I'd be interested to hear your stance on Israeli Arabs.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481121#Comment_121481121

So you think it's ok for people to treat all Jewish people badly because of Israeli policy? Because it reads like you're excusing people for anti semitism. Which I don't think is like you, just from reading your posts

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481162#Comment_121481162

that was not the plan at all.

anyway, the jews are not israel and israel are not the jews, that is just a fact.

being the world's only jewish state does not equal representation of jews full stop.

therefore my stance on israel is not the same as, or my stance full stop, on jews.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481038#Comment_121481038

Israeli intelligence services know exactly where Hamas active cells are, which is why they are happy to take out an apartment block and massacre a hundred civilians if they know they can confirm one legit kill. You can dress it up whatever way you want, but the Israeli government believe they're the fukn master race. They deserve nobody's sympathy, support or respect in this slaughter.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481040#Comment_121481040

Come off it, you were called on the the specific mention that the guards in Ireland regularly strip suspects to their underwear while they are handcuffed/restrained on the ground. The bold part is what people have an issue with and are still waiting on you to provide evidence of it of retract the statement.

Danzy

The Lebanese govt told that they have 48 hours to start negotiating on returning Hezbollah back north of the litani River or the IDF will do so.

The idea that a massive and we'll equipped force of 7th Century psychos would be allowed cast terror over the North of Israel was never going to fly.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481181#Comment_121481181

My understanding is that those who were OK with living in a Jewish state took Israeli citizenship, passport etc back in '47 and their descendants are a part of Israeli society. If they're happy to be citizens of Israel, more power to them. I'm sure their views differ and I don't know any personally, but I know the man who started Nas Daily is an Israeli Arab and he seems sound.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481211#Comment_121481211

Even though a plurality of the worlds Jews (may) now be Israeli?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481036#Comment_121481036

The IDF regularly give updates and name the IDF soldiers who have died in the ground invasion on Gaza. close to 100 so far I believe.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481241#Comment_121481241

I searched but couldn't find that. Cheers.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481245#Comment_121481245

Not sure they have an official site with the stats but: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-declares-deaths-of-5-more-troops-including-nephew-of-ex-idf-chief-eisenkot-who-also-lost-son/#:~:text=The%20IDF%20announces%20the%20deaths,Hamas%20has%20increased%20to%2097.

Some sites will have a higher figure as they include the IDF who were killed by Hamas on Oct 7th.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481234#Comment_121481234

the IDF won't be returning anyone anywhere.

if they invade the lebanon they will get their arses handed to them again like they did last time.

this time it will be worse as they have a lot of resources in gaza currently.

StringerBell

When I watch the continuing, unfolding, ethnic cleansing, daily, the thought that repeats in my mind is simply, does nobody in a position to actually affect this brutal regime care at all? Like nobody?

How have the moral, or ones who think themselves moral at least, nations of the world one from "Never Again" to just passively observing at best, and actively enabling at worst in little 3/4 of a century?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481085#Comment_121481085

Which doesn't answer the question at all.

you believe the state of Israel, the day after it was declared, was planning on invading it's neighbours? Because that's what you claimed. Their neighbours only attacked them because they had intelligence that the brand newly formed Israeli state was going to invade them?

I would be interested to see any evidence at all about this

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481260#Comment_121481260

If Lebanon and Hezbollah start a war with Israel, the IDF will not treat Beirut with the kid gloves it has done in Gaza.

It will cease to exist as a city. As would Lebanon cease to exist as a barely functional State.

They didn't take the last time serious and were under resourced, that's not the case now. Even that little action left Lebanon on the verge of the stone age according to one of their Ministers.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481193#Comment_121481193

It is actually non-Zionist Jewish people who are warning that this relentless cheerleading for the IDF by unhinged individuals on social media is doing them no favours. I don't see a rise in Islamophobia in coming months, but it would be easy to see a rise in anti-Semitism.

There seems to be a clear attempt too by the regime and its supporters to link all Jewish people to the military action. Any Jewish person who dares criticise or question it is immediately labelled a "traitor" or "Judenrat".

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481301#Comment_121481301

Didn't answer the question. Do you think it's somehow justified the rise in antisemitism?

In the same way as racism is in the rise in Ireland, because of foreigners committing crimes?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481299#Comment_121481299

lad israel got their arses handed to them last time they tried it on with hesbala in 2006.

all of the bombing and eventually a gurilla force forced them back across the border.

the ground invasion is being slaughtered in gaza as it is, their air power has a lot of resources tied up there also, they won't have the resources to be able to bomb 2 countries into oblivian at the same time.

even the US wouldn't be able to give them enough ammunition to do that without dipping into it's own stock pile which is not going to happen.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481308#Comment_121481308

Absolutely not. I have never been to Israel, but have met several Jewish people over the years and even had some interesting discussions with a couple of them about Israel and its relationship with Palestine and how the country is perceived in the world. Another girl I got to know online had even served in the IDF.

Ironically, I suspect quite a few of the unhinged individuals I mentioned earlier who are supporting Israel probably don't even like Jewish people or Judaism - it's just another populist cause for them and appeals to their extremist and black and white view of the world.

Ignacius

The rise is anti Zionism is certainly warranted. I don’t like to call it anti-semitism because not all Jews are zionists.

Most civilised people would think it Normal to be ‘anti’ a group committing genocide.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/05/world/middleeast/house-anti-zionism-antisemitism.html

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481146#Comment_121481146

Nope, I doubt very much that Hamas has the full 100% support of the Palestinian population. In very much the same way that Putin does for sure not have 100% support of Russians. The big question is though, how do you tell which is which?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481360#Comment_121481360

The IDF obviously can tell as they have dropped 20,000 smart bombs, they wouldn't be dropping them without knowing their target right?

But seriously, seeing as how the IDF haven't had a presence in the Gaza since years (was it 2005?), how would they know whose Hamas?

I'm sure it's a similar position to the US in Afghanistan with the Taliban and more recently with ISIS, but the US and allies didn't cause nearly as many civilian deaths as the IDF have.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481220#Comment_121481220

I'm not trying to dress anything up or down, either for Hamas or Israel. I'm not for or against either side in this conflict, believe it or not. I'm neutral if it comes down to that. What's happening there has been happening for a long time, and I don't have either an explanation or an answer. And I don't think that the 808 pages and the 24240 posts have answers or explanations either. Just discussions and that's about it. Neither am I especially impressed with any intelligence service in any Country that fails to anticipate, despite warnings of an attack of the magnitude of the Hamas attack on Israel. So Hamas mingles with the "civilian" population, Israeli intelligence tells the government /military and they bomb buildings that it believes Hamas are hiding in killing many civilians, that's a fact, horrible as it is. The question is aside from discussing it here on boards, and expressing different opinions, what can you, I or anyone else do to stop it?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481375#Comment_121481375

About the bombing, had Israel being serious about bombing Gaza, there would not be much of Gaza left by now. This is not to be taken as support for Israel in any shape or form, it's just a fact presently, and is no guarantee that before they are finished, Israel may well demolish Gaza completely. They just do not care.

Had the Taliban or ISIS been confined to the same conditions as Hamas and the Palestinians are in Gaza, the killing would be the same. But the fact is they are completely different scenarios. In both Afghanistan and Syria, people could and did move from danger areas, Thats not to say that thousands of innocent civilians were not killed, because there were, but had they been in Gaza, with no escape possible, the death figures would be much higher. So, it's not like comparing like with like.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481427#Comment_121481427

I still maintain without heavy bombers, Israel are limited with the bombs they can drop. They only have fighter bombers.

Even in Mosul, half the population left, but the remaining population was equal in population density to Gaza, despite that the civilian death toll was 3200 from the direct bombing in 9 months, far short of 18,000 in 2 months in Gaza.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481299#Comment_121481299

Gallant wanted to launch a pre emptive strike on Lebanon in the days after October 7th. This is the guy you said was favourite to take over in Israel. Was that factual or just wishful thinking on your part, I ask because the way you describe the war in 2006 is clearly a flight of fancy due to your pro Israel stance. If you were able to take off the blinkers for a bit you'd acknowledge the war ended in a stalemate with Israel retreating. The truth is both Israel and Hezbollah have avoided going to war since 2006. IDF personnel have admitted another war against Hezbollah would be far more difficult than the current war against Hamas.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481299#Comment_121481299

What do you mean start a war? Israel is already bombing Lebanon.

Are Lebanon not entitled to play the victim card, or is that something only Israel can do?

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473142#Comment_121473142

I agree with that other than the proposition that the other Arab countries in the region care about the Palestinian Arabs. Unfortunately I've seen no evidence to suggest that those countries have anything other than contempt for the Palestinian Arabs. All I've seen is their willingness to use them as a pawn and a callous disregard for their lives and wellbeing that is as least equal to the callous disregard of the Israelis. That is the sickeningly hopeless reality they face.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481478#Comment_121481478

It's low level skirmishes still. Both sides are seemingly content not to escalate it to full scale war so far. If Gallant had his way about the pre emptive strike it might have been a full scale war,but he was overruled by his own cabinet thanks to US pressure. Had that happened the usual suspects would have spun it rather than lay the blame at Israel. As it is Hezbollah fired the first rockets, so you can't blame Israel for responding. What you can blame them for is deliberately targeting Journalists in Lebanon. This will of course be denied by the same people, if that doesn't work then it'll be it was rogue IDF members , anything to absolve the IDF of blame.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481284#Comment_121481284

The reality is that no other country in the region cares about the Palestinian Arabs and internationally there's no up side for opposing Israel.

As for "Never Again", we've had Rwanda, East Timor, West Papua (that and East Timor conducted by the Indonesian Government which is now criticising Israel and accusing them of genocide), the Ethnic Vietnamese in Cambodia by the Khmer Rouge, the extermination of 150,000-200,000 Maya Indians in Guatemala in the 1980's (by the US backed Government), The Marsh Arabs in Iraq by Saddam, and of course China in Tibet and what they are doing now. Hardly a word about any of them and certainly not the same noise from the UN but they aren't that interested in the 100,000 dead Arab children in Yemen because that's another war where there's no up-side in caring about the victims.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481718#Comment_121481718

Welcome to the world of geo politics and glaring double standards. You have listed various war crimes, you should know the side I support make "mistakes"only they don't commit war crimes, that's why I can call out others for committing war crimes without a trace of irony

brickster69

From Israel's social media influencer. I thought you could not say things like that ?

https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1733879638235988284

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481400#Comment_121481400

I don't believe that anyone is neutral in this. It has been described as Genocide by every agency working there. Nobody can be neutral to Genocide. Its either for it or against it.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481822#Comment_121481822

He is just having some fun, and defying the fash and mocking their chant all in one.

tayto lover

MSF doctors reporting 5 year old children coming to them starving and crying and asking to be dead?? The children can't take any more of this.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481628#Comment_121481628

Well the "disregard" is hardly equal to the actions of the Israelis, they are not bombing them, dehousing them and starving them out after all.

I never said they care in that post, not the leaders of the countries anyway.

I think the feeling of public there for Palestinians is genuine.

Leaders of countries "caring" is not the same as further hatred engendered now by what Israel is doing potentially being useful to the wrong types of leader (and dangerous) in future.

brickster69

Jeffrey Sachs on ethnic cleansing, Genocide convention and complicity. ( 15 minutes onwards )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN6Rykw2364

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481454#Comment_121481454

I'd like to see Gallant take over, he is most likely to replace his arch enemy Bibi and be PM in time.

He is pragmatic but focused on goals as well.

Israel arguably got a kick in the ass in 2006, underprepared, troops not resourced properly, constrained in how to fight. It still hit Hezbollah very hard and brought Lebanon to the edge of collapse.

Now, Lebanon is verging on failed State, no senior job can be filled unless Hezbollah put one of their own in, so the country is rudderless, the economy on life support and directionless.

Hezbollah certainly are a very capable. Large and well resourced force, a real threat and fighting them will be costly and brutal for Israel.

Yet that is precisely why they must be shoved back from the border, you can't have a force that size, committed to the extermination of yids, fags and whores etc etc ready to come over the border.

You and a few others here might find that prospect tantalizing but the aforementioned are not willing to go along to be slaughtered, the turnout of women of women to fight in the IDF is at an all time record, they know what they are up against and what the likes of you would be willing to let happen to them.

Forcing Hezbollah back to a distance will probably cost thousands of Israeli lives, it will also mean that Beirut is an empty ruin, that every facet of the Lebanese state is hit, that everything related to Hezbollah is hit, that 30km from the border becomes an empty buffer zone. Lebanon will probably end as a State, not far of it anyway.

The care shown in Gaza will not be applicable due to the speed and urgency of stopping hezbollah.

What choice does Israel have if Hezbollah do not pull back. None, at all. Waiting for an attack is not peace.

Lebanons only chance to survive, regardless of Israel's needs is that they destroy Hezbollah, who are intent on completely controlling it and largely do already. The other groups in Lebanon need to join in the fight or just quit and hand over everything to Hezbollah and get it over with.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481478#Comment_121481478

Hezbollah launched the rockets.

Lebanon are a victim of Hezbollah as well.

Hezbollah are in control of most of Lebanon and are one finally push from not even pretending to share power.

The Lebanese army and other groups in that society must avail of this opportunity to rise up against Hezbollah and destroy them once and for all.

Either that or just make Nasrallah leader of the State and make it official.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481822#Comment_121481822

That is genocidal. Israel lies that the phrase "from the river to the sea" as used by supporters of Palestinians calls for genocide. But here they are unironically and genuinely using the meaning they themselves have mendaciously ascribed to the phrase.

That tweet is a chilling propaganda call for the extermination of the entire Palestinian population. It is Nazi-like.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481983#Comment_121481983

I didn't say that they were equivalent.

The feelings of the public here for Palestinian Arabs is genuine. It's the lack of genuine concern for those suffering as badly or worse in other conflicts that puzzles me.

I don't think there is anyone here who doesn't care about and acknowledge the suffering which is being endured by the population of Gaza. I think most people regard the actions of the IDF as, as the very least, disproportionate. The disagreement comes in the discussion about the culpability of Hamas for originating and then sustaining the conflict.

StringerBell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481718#Comment_121481718

Of course, but since this thread is to do with the current Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people and the moral West doing nothing I didn't feel the need to cover every example (current and historical) to ask the question.

That the world leaders don't care or that there is no political upside to doing the right thing is the problem, not the answer.