Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500357#Comment_121500357

No, haven't you heard? Israel needs to be "obliterated" and then the Jews left defenceless can stay there to build a better country, and not be genocided by those who have been saying that's their aim for centuries now. It's totally realistic

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500515#Comment_121500515

The only thing you're being consistent with is "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Perhaps the mask is slipping? I'm referring to international law and the history of warfare, both of which are very clear. As are the facts, i.e. that Gaza has been a terrorist military base since 2006. A standard of FAFO (F Around and Find Out) is (or was) universally accepted throughout history. Why are you subjecting da Joos to a different standard that no-one else in history has been held to?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500560#Comment_121500560

What's all this about giving it a special name? Have your fellow Zionist supporters on here not already waved off and dismissed 20k+ civilian deaths as just what happens in war? Are we not being consistent here? I would have been of the opinion that both were atrocities before you guys explained and shrugged it away as the equivalent of "meh, sh1t happens".

Methinks it is you that is trolling!

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500591#Comment_121500591

You guys have your few "go to" retorts to try to shut down any debate.

Now you are going on about some book printed long before any event mentioned on thread. What next - Merchant of Venice? |I doubt you'd even know what was in it. Either of them for that matter.

Please let us know of the relevance. How many Gazan toddlers is each IDF soldier allowed to kill because of some pamphlet published over 100 years ago. Maybe we can unearth a newspaper story of a Jewish person being mugged in London in the 1840's and use that to justify another few thousand of those toddlers.

Your own mask has well and truly slipped at this stage yourself!

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500587#Comment_121500587

The civilians are the ones being eliminated. Women and children in their thousands and those the Israelis miss will be starved it seems. The IDF don't seem to be able to get at the terrorists and seem so frustrated that even more civilians like medical personnel, journalists and donkeys and carts have become the targets. Strange that after more than 2 months not a single hostage has been rescued. Very poor job by the IDF that. They seem better at killing unarmed civilians, attacking and kicking cameramen and damaging mosques than they are at tackling terrorists and freeing hostages.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500627#Comment_121500627

"They are a different kind of bunch. They don’t want any solution with the Palestinians, they just want to punish all the Palestinians"

Sleepy Joe on the Israelis. December 13, 2023

The notion that any of Israel's actions were based on an intention to target Hamas is, and always was, a barefaced lie. Netanyahu was open about it from the start with his Amalek crap. It was only facilitators (similar to some on here) who sought to try to obfuscate it.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500587#Comment_121500587

Who is supporting Hamas. Your post is borderline hysterical.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498149#Comment_121498149

You could be correct, however From the timings it seem Israelis had decided (for the time being) not to do a preemptive strike before the meetings with the US.

By the time Mr. Blinken arrived in Tel Aviv for his first wartime visit, on Oct. 12, the American officials had become less anxious about such a strike, but were still concerned over potential Israeli overreaction to the ongoing Hezbollah rocket attacks.

Of course the US also didn't want them to invade Gaza. We know how much they listened to the US on that...

"During visits last week to Israel, Austin and Blinken also reportedly pointed out that the United States would find it difficult to support an Israeli ground operation in Gaza, if it involved considerable damage to civilians and have a potential risk to Egyptian sovereignty, according to Ynet, citing Washington’s stance on not alienating pro-American Arab regimes."

On the other side various parties have been trying to get Hezbollah not to provoke a reaction. Hezbollah response...

Hezbollah has been firing rockets into northern Israel since Israel’s war with Hamas began, prompting Israeli airstrikes and artillery fire in south Lebanon..

Whats holding back Hezbollah and Israel is reported to be..

The Israeli news channel reported that Austin offered, in return for Israel holding back, that the U.S. would bring American pilots and aerial support into the war, but only if Hezbollah attacked first.....

This would be in addition to the current deterrent force of two aircraft carrier strike groups (CSGs) that have been stationed in the Mediterranean, close to the coast of Lebanon. 

Could go either way. Someone said earlier the US presence might be holding the power keg in check for the time being. That might be true.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500610#Comment_121500610

"Shut down any debate?" I'm just trying to find out why da Joos are being held to an absurd standard that no belligerent in history has ever been held to. And yes, your ... whatever that was about Kristellnacht would gone down very well in a German beer hall around that time.

As for Gaza, perhaps international law has been changed in some way, but AFAIK if Israel has declared war on Hamas, PIJ etc then they're given very broad latitude in doing whatever they see fit to annihilate them, and perhaps also their supporters.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500701#Comment_121500701

So what about the non Hamas supporters? How do they differentiate or is it '' kill them all and we accomplish our task''?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500701#Comment_121500701

I'll admit. You are correct. No "belligerent" in history has ever been expected not to just wholesale murder innocent and vulnerable civilians on a whim in order to sate their bloodlust.............. 😴

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500520#Comment_121500520

"[The hostages] appeared [to the IDF] to be terrorists because there was no good visuals on them, and they could have been wearing clothes that belonged to locals,"

So going by that the IDF are just shooting and killing people because they could be terrorists wearing civilian clothes. Sounds like a good way to limit civillian deaths, just shoot and kill anyone in clothes.

DarkJager21

Children in 30 years won't be learning about Nazis, they'll be learning about the IDF.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500725#Comment_121500725

Reminds me of the incident where a few Israelis ran out with their assault rifles in response to some kind of threat and was shot (I think by a soldier) because the soldier assumed it was a Palestinian so he could get away with it.

They tried to cover it up anyway but the body was later exhumed and an autopsy proved the soldier shot him. Was in the news yesterday or the day before.

Not to be making light of a serious situation, but it reminded me of an episode of South Park

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500735#Comment_121500735

So you have something against Muslims?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500725#Comment_121500725

Not even remotely a surprise that the IDF would be trigger happy creeps. If they're able to kill their own people so easily, they must be taking even less care with Gazans - they must be one of the worst and most unprofessional armies in the world (strongly rumoured they killed dozens of Israelis on October 7th).

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500735#Comment_121500735

Can you please provide the official order in which people are supposed to speak out about different issues?

Thanks. We wouldn't want to bring one up without having brought up any of the per-requisite ones first.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500725#Comment_121500725

Zero principles of distinction being applied. Which has been pointed out previously except this time they have now killed their own.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500856#Comment_121500856

It blows up the " human shield " narrative also if they just shoot anyone regardless of what clothes they are wearing.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500748#Comment_121500748

Right, and it's going to be whitewashed of any potential war crimes just like the allies are whitewashed in today's history. This always tend to happen for the winners, especially when they are the ones with a good cause.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500759#Comment_121500759

That makes them sound more incompetent than genocidal. But as a controversial statesman once said: "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500701#Comment_121500701

Sorry, hard to go back through so many posts here. I recall you and others debated the point about "the Jews being held to a different standard". Could you remind me what you posted in regards to this?

Speaking for myself, possibly others, I think anyone viewing these events who has any notion of humanity in them would see that this is just plain wrong. I think any belligerant who is responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of innocent civilians and reducing their homes, workplaces, hospitals, places of worship etc. to rubble, starving them, denying them medical supplies and terrorising them has crossed the line of unacceptability of plain simple humanity.

The attacks of October 7th equally crossed that line of unacceptability. But that does not give anyone the right to act disproportionately in their response. And in my opinion, there is nothing "absurd" in calling out Israel on what the IDF is doing.

I find the words "da Joos" that you used in your post quite offensive.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500958#Comment_121500958

All throughout history, civilian fatalities have been unavoidable in declared wars, and belligerents given very broad latitude to do whatever they have to, as long as they're going after legitimate military targets, with a view to ending a threat. And whether we like it or not, Hamas has turned the Gaza strip into a giant terrorist military base, having ruled it since 2006. I don't like it, but that's war. As to my phrasing, it was intended to parody what I believe to be something verging on anti-Semitism.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500950#Comment_121500950

They are well trained soldiers. Mistaken, probably. Incompetent, no.

The use of small arms fire wouldn't normally lead to "genocide" and individual foot soldiers would not normally be classed as "genocidal". That would be the State. With significant quantities of bombs and heavy weaponry and shells.

You seem to be suggesting that Israel is incompetent and not genocidal? And it has little/no control over the army it has? And has been training for many decades? Or am I reading too much into your words?

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500454#Comment_121500454

Phew. There was me thinking 20,000 dead civilians, decimated civilian infrastructure and forced relocation into conditions of disease and starvation were war crimes when its simply 'one of those things'. 'Par for the course'. 'It is what it is'. And there was me actually giving a shite - what waste, eh?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501003#Comment_121501003

First of all, I reject utterly the claim that Israel is "genocidal." They're in a war where lots of people want them dead, in my view they're justified in taking a total war stance. I was responding to tales of IDF soldiers killing their own troops, Israeli hostages etc. that sounds like at least some in the IDF aren't entirely sure what they are doing. I'd also have to question Israel's government and intelligence services if they legitimately had no idea the 7th of October attacks were about to happen.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501039#Comment_121501039

Yes indeed and when backed into a corner the old ''anti-Simitism'' is thrown in. Its their human shield kind of thing.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500995#Comment_121500995

I really don't see that the IDF is going after legitimate military targets with the bulk of the dead Gazans being women and children. I can't vouch for the men but I doubt all of them are Hamas combatants. I don't agree that Hamas has turned Gaza into a "giant terrorist military base" and Israel doesn't believe that either.

I think you are making excuses for the what the Israelis are doing by starting tour premise with "All throughout history..."

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497706#Comment_121497706

Excellent post towards the end. Thanks.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501039#Comment_121501039

Did you "give a s***e" about the people killed in the Allied bombings of cities in Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan? Or just Gaza?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501053#Comment_121501053

From the news sources I read, I'm seeing the word genocide rather a lot - and not in the sense of rejecting it. You're entitled the reject it of course, as do others, but I I'm seeing that as a minority view. But you've made it clear and I'm not here to debate that with you.

So, let's see, "Israel is in a war with lots of people who want them dead". And let's just stick to Gaza for now. These people are starving, deprived of shelter, deprived of basic human needs. You think they all have the capacity to stand up to the IDF? You think they are all potential terrorists/combatants and fair game? They may of course want the IDF dead - if I was being bombed into the stone age, I'd at least want it to stop. And if someone wiped out my loved ones for no reason at all, I think I would wish an unhappy ending on that person(s).

IDF Soldiers know exactly what they are doing (as do trained professional soldiers in general). I think any soldier who had a notion that one of their colleagues "didn't know what they were doing" would keep their distance or report it.

And by "having to question the Israeli Govt...." do you accept then that there is the possibility that all this could have been avoided and all the innocents who have died on both sides would possibly still be alive?

blackcard

The killing of 3 hostages by the IDF raises a number of questions

*Had the hostages escaped from their captors? If so, how? Were their captors killed by the IDF? Were the hostages walking towards the IDF forces?

*Were the hostages allowed to escape? If so, why? Were there other hostages in the vicinity

*Presumably the hostages weren't armed and they were dressed like civilians. In that case, is it the policy of the IDF to kill unarmed civilians that approach them? Did the IDF think that they might be a victim of a suicide bomb? How close did the hostages get to the IDF?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501158#Comment_121501158

I doubt many people here were alive at that time.

In my younger years, I read a lot about the allied bombings - especially Dresden. I don't know much about the details of Japan other than the two nuclear bombs dropped. Dresden was appalling, horrific. So is what is happening in Gaza.

Do you have any empathy for those in Dresden/Hiroshima? Do you have any empathy for those in Gaza?

dmcdona

Ref the three hostages mistakenly killed - I wonder what the reaction will be from the families of all the hostages - those that were freed, those that are dead and those that are still captive - will be...

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501175#Comment_121501175

The reaction to the killings by the Israeli bots on social media is depressing and grim btw. They clearly couldn't give a flying fig about the dead hostages : it's all about defending the regime (I suspect many of the non Jewish ones don't even like Jewish people....it's more that they hate Muslims).

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501231#Comment_121501231

The Allied bombings went far beyond the controversial episodes in Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Way beyond that. In later stages, carpet bombing of German, Japanese and occupied cities was a nightly routine extensively covering both countries. My point is that nobody considers, for example Operation Meetinghouse as being particularly controversial, even though civilian deaths and suffering were enormous. The reason was simple - it was war.

Israel seems like it's being held to a different standard, despite the fact that they've been under attack constantly since 1947 and are seeking a decisive outcome against a mortal enemy. My question is why? Why was basically every other belligerent in history was allowed to do whatever they had to, but Israel is expected to co-exist with mortal enemies?

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501443#Comment_121501443

....because it's colonizing their lands.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501443#Comment_121501443

I think know what you're getting at - I agree that there were many atrocities in WWII - and the countless other wars before and after. Man's inhumanity to man.

But I don't get the standard bit. I don't think you can directly compare what is happening in 2023 to anything that happened in the 1940s. Today, Israel has a well equipment military - accurate weapons systems, accurate delivery systems, good intelligence etc. In WWII, a fair few of the bombers directed to bomb Dresden actually bombed Prague. I would expect an army today to a lot better than that.

So perhaps Israel is being held to a different standard - because these are different times.

I have no difficulty in holding the two views at the same time - that things that happened in WWII were beyond cruel and that things happening in Gaza are also beyond cruel and should stop.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501443#Comment_121501443

Keep in mind that the modern and updated Geneva Conventions plus the International Criminal Court didn't even exist during WW2. They were largely set up in direct response to the multiple war crimes and atrocities against civilians that had taken place during the war.

Also, what might have been deemed acceptable in war even 20 or 30 years ago would be much more likely to be frowned upon in 2023.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501443#Comment_121501443

Why do you just blindly parrot guff that the likes of that evil bitch Ambassador to the UK come out with? Why stop at 80 years ago? Why not go back to the Mongols FFS to set the standard for the Israelis of today. I mean, why should the IDF care about Human rights when nobody on this site was protesting Genghis Khan or has included a statement condemning him before first criticising Israel. Such a glaring omission clearly makes any attempted condemnation invalid.

But your arguments are always asymmetric and only ever one-sided. You will no doubt resile from those arguments if they were applied to what you consider the "other side".

Hamas could consider themselves at war with Israel since their inception. With legitimate reason. Tens of thousands of Palestinians being held hostage in Israeli facilities (aka detention without charge or trial). Over a decade of sanctions keeping the Palestinian economy in a perpetual state of bare subsistence and a large part of the Palestinian population being held in an open air prison. The portion that are not in an open air prison are not kept behind fences simply for the reason that the absence of fences makes it easier for settlers from the US etc to come and conduct raids on them and their properties and later steal that property.

So, given Hamas were at war with Israel prior to Oct 7th, and given that wars in the past involved raids where people were murdered, maybe even raped, and taken hostage, you are logically then ok with the events of October 7th.

Or are you a complete hypocrite?

BTW, you may think the IDF and Israelis are your friend. The sad thing is that if you visited the West Bank or Gaza, or even a border somewhere with Israel, you would be far more likely to be summarily executed or killed on sight by the IDF than any other group in the area. And without any compunction whatsoever.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500905#Comment_121500905

I mean the human shield argument never stood up to any scrutiny from anyone with the slightest modicum of intelligence or anyone who's capable of basic human empathy. You don't blow up a school to put an end to an active shooter situation. Even if someone actually was being a used as a human shield (and there was never any independent evidence of this being the case), that doesn't give you the right to intentionally brutally murder them.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501603#Comment_121501603

It's quite simple. After blockading the territory for over a decade, the Israelis have more recently invaded it and sealed off it's borders and left the population without food or water.

You'll find people on here trying to say that that is wrong. That Israel should not be starving the Gazan population. But those people on here are hypocrites. And their criticism is wholly invalidated as it is purely driven by antisemitism. What is the proof for this? - Well it is obvious. They never - and I repeat, never - start off by condemning the Moroccans for their 26 year long siege of the Spanish enclave of Ceuta from 1694-1727.

So not a word about the Moroccans, but they want the IDF to be held to higher standards. It's just antisemitism. It's all fine for the Moroccans to do it but as soon as the Israeli's do it, the hypocrites have a problem with it. Coincidence or wha?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501693#Comment_121501693

There was a video doing the rounds the other day of the IDF demolishing a UN school and cheering as the explosives detonated and reduced it to rubble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WPjIZP6sZw

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501443#Comment_121501443

Do you realise how bad it sounds when the best defence of Israel you can muster is to go back to some of the worst atrocities in all of recorded human history that we all learned about in school in the context that this must never ever be allowed to happen again, and in response to which most of today's international organisations, treaties, conventions and laws around war were created in order to stop such crimes against humanity ever happening again, and then declare Israel are totally justified in what they're doing because maybe it has possibly not quite reached that level yet?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501715#Comment_121501715

He's just blindly parroting the Israeli Ambassador to the UK. She has given a few interviews now to the UK media where she springs the "gotcha" about Dresden to them. SeanW may not be aware that Ireland did not take direct part in WWII and so - if it has any smidgin of relevance in the UK (I'm not convinced it would) - it has zero here.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501725#Comment_121501725

Dresden was controversial, even at the time. There was disquiet in England once it gradually became clear that a non military city had been attacked and destroyed and tens of thousands of innocent civilians had been killed. There were even editorials in the British press seriously questioning what had happened and why it had been necessary to bomb the city.

Israel and pro-regime extremists seem to be under the impression that the bombing of Dresden was popular and deemed necessary at the time.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501158#Comment_121501158

I wasn't born then. I never lived through them and neither did you.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493772#Comment_121493772

You're confusing non-Israelis, residents of the occupied territories, with Israeli Arabs, who are 20% of the population of Israel, and have the same legal rights as any other Israelis. Non Israelis don't have the same rights as Israelis, same as non Americans don't automatically have residency/working rights in the US.

The reason Israel is occupying territories goes back to the attacks on Israel by neighbouring countries who thought their numerical superiority meant they'd easily destroy Israel completely. They lost those wars, and while Israel continues to occupy some of the territory they won back then, they've given most of it back, including Gaza, the Sinai and most of the Golan Heights near Syria.

Israel claims that while Hamas, PIJ and others continue to launch rocket attacks from the areas it controls, they can't allow Palestinians to control strategic areas that would make, for example, life in Tel Aviv completely impossible.

And yes I know there is also an extremist section of Israelis who think that the only solution is to annihilate Palestine as a political entity completely - but that's a view that only gained significant support as Palestinian terrorism within Israel has proved impossible to eradicate by other means. The Oct 7th attacks will likely have strengthened that view, not diminished it.

But to come back to Israeli Arabs, many of them are choosing to join the IDF to fight against Hamas: significant majority of them support Israel in this war. They know they don't live in an apartheid state.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492392#Comment_121492392

And there were more deaths again due to Allied actions in WW2 - but that's not an argument to prove that the WW2 Allies were worse than the South African apartheid regime.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501934#Comment_121501934

" Do you think Iran or USA is the bigger destabilizer in the middle east?"

You need to ask the people of the region for the answer and i would be 100% certain that we know what the answer would be.