Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504413#Comment_121504413

What? One poster said numerous times the other day that Israel needs to be "obliterated". Did you really not see all those posts?

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504444#Comment_121504444

"This perpetual demand for Jews to be seen as the victim no longer is accepted without question."

Right so the Jews that are being attacked around the world just for being Jewish arent victims now? They deserve it?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504512#Comment_121504512

One poster does not equate to "posters".

And to be fair, to quote the post, the poster stated:

"Why should should we not want to obliterate the existence of a genocidal, apartheid state in the same way that the obliteration of apartheid South Africa was considered a completely legitimate and worthy objective?"

That is a question - not a statement.

RobbingBandit

If those three hostages had been Palestinian we probably wouldn't be hearing much about them but it would have been a war crime killing them in such a manner and technically the malicious intention to kill men waving a white flag in war time is a war crime particularly when they are prisoners of war.

The fact that the IDF shot first and asked the question of their identity after the fact brings the question of how many times has this happened to Palestinian nationals during this conflict and not been reported.

RIP to the men killed in this tragic situation and to all that have died during this conflict.

Unfortunately peace is an unrealistic concept as long as both sides have the backing of significant others who care nothing for the lives of innocent people.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504523#Comment_121504523

What about the Russians being attacked around the world right now just for being Russians? They deserve it?

You'll probably even get racists on here trying to claim that such attacks don't excuse what the Russians did in the likes of Bucha etc!

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504523#Comment_121504523

Hardly the first time that posters mask has slipped.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504447#Comment_121504447

Per the above post - the poster did not call for the obliteration of Israel. Read the post carefully.

So, one poster asking a rhetorical question does not equate to "posters here want the State of Israel to be obliterated"

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504523#Comment_121504523

Ah now, read the statement. "no longer accepted without question". There is no way that could be read as anyone deserving anything.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504523#Comment_121504523

Yeah, because what I said was that there is never a Jewish person who is a victim.....

If that is what you took from my post, and your response isn't just another strawman trotted out for an evening runabout, I don't know what to tell you.

If it is just a strawman, then you go nuts, he's all yours.

Ten of Swords

@Danzy threadbanned

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504492#Comment_121504492

The suspicion among many is that this is systematic. The IDF seem out of control (driven by hatred for the Palestinians) - already credibly rumoured they may have massacred dozens of Israelis on October 7th.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504574#Comment_121504574

Wow. Talk about hair splitting. Apparently there's some massive difference between saying "Israel should be obliterated" and saying "Why shouldn't Israel be obliterated given that's a horrible evil country full of horrible evil people doing horrible evil things?"

In case there's any doubt, the poster went on to explicitly defending calling for the destruction of Israel, using the talking points about "settler-colonialism" that I referred to:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496268#Comment_121496268

Again, this poster could not identify where the Jewish Metropolitan State was, nor did he explain why all the Mizrahi Jews who live there did not have a right to live somewhere in the Middle East. Draw your own conclusions. My point stands.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504690#Comment_121504690

I'm not splitting hairs. Words matter.

You said: "Some posters here want the State of Israel to be obliterated"

Name the other posters.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504699#Comment_121504699

Yes, and the poster I referred to explicitly defended calling for the destruction of Israel. Based on radical-leftist talking points.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504703#Comment_121504703

Can you name the other posters? Simple question.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504712#Comment_121504712

The post below (24700) was thanked by 4 other people, sock.rocker*, TokTik, flutered and Odhinn. All of them explicitly support the obliteration of the State of Israel. All of them I suspect on the radical-left, or anti-Semites. Or both.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496386/#Comment_121496386

HalloweenJack

Criticism of Israel the state and how it operates does not equal roundly hating Jews and wishing them all dead or any kind of anti-Semitism.

The fact that the leaders of Israel are Jewish is beside the point; the problem is how they operate. Their ethnicity/religion is irrelevant. But, of course, it's a very handy way to shut down any criticism of Israel. No one wants to be labelled an anti-semite (and thus be sub-consciously hinted at being a Nazi).

The fact that this needs to be pointed out every other page shows how deeply the roots of this trope have reached.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504726#Comment_121504726

I'm getting a bit tired of throw away comments like "other posters support/condone/agree". Its lazy and I find it disingenuous.

As I stated, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I've no problem with honest debate but to state that four posters who clicked the "thanks" button on a post that asked a rhetorical question "explicitly support the obliteration of the State of Israel" is stretching credulity - and is not evidence.

And by way of example, if I clicked "thanks" on your post above to thank you for making the effort of backing up your claim, would you then believe that I fully supported you and agreed totally that those four posters were radical leftists or anti-Semite, or both? I don't believe that's how the "thanks" button works.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504764#Comment_121504764

Do you need some help moving those goalposts?

First it was "I genuinely haven't seen anyone in this thread call for the annihilation of Israel. Evidence please."

Then you claimed that the poster was just "asking a rhetorical question" and not explicitly calling for the destruction of Israel. Then I posted other examples from that individual where they clarified that it wasn't "just" a "rhetorical question"

Then you asked for evidence that other posters agree, and I provided it. And yes, that's how the Thanks! button works - one tends to thank a post if they find something worthwhile in the post. And if you thank a post that calls for the total destruction of the worlds only Jewish state, then ... yes, you're probably on the same page as the poster to some extent.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504760#Comment_121504760

There are many countries in the world solely based on religion. Many countries have the crescent moon on their flag and some explicitly state that the Quran is their constitution. If the only state in the world you have a real problem with the existence of, is the one that also co-incidentally happens to be the worlds' only Jewish state ... that raises questions.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504760#Comment_121504760

It's one of the main way their propagandists operate - accuse anyone who criticises Israel of being "anti-Semitic" and pro-Hamas. I notice the most likely ones to do this are actual Israeli loudmouths / propagandists on social media.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504671#Comment_121504671

Extreme events tend to provoke extreme reactions. Wasn't that the whole point of events that day

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504555#Comment_121504555

Hmmm, you didn’t quote the whole post did you?

“Israel is a genocidal, apartheid state. Why should we want to perpetuate the existence of a genocidal, apartheid state?

Why should should we not want to obliterate the existence of a genocidal, apartheid state in the same way that the obliteration of apartheid South Africa was considered a completely legitimate and worthy objective?”

The poster’s answer to their own question is the first line. Pretty clear to me that the destruction of Israel is being called for here.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504813#Comment_121504813

No, I'm not moving the goalposts at all.

I never "claimed" your first quoted post was a question - it IS a question I stated as much. See the squiggly thing at the end of the sentence? Just like this one? That's a question. <-- That's a statement. See the difference? The post was a question. Not a statement.

No - you didn't provide evidence that other posters agree . You simply provided a list of people that clicked the "thanks" button.

You state that "one tends to thank a post if they find something worthwhile in the post". You also provide a clicked thank you button as "evidence". I'm not buying that at all. You allude to it yourself - a "thanks" is not evidence.

And do I detect a bit of a row back here?

"And if you thank a post that calls for the total destruction of the worlds only Jewish state, then ... yes, you're probably on the same page as the poster to some extent."

"probably on the same page" is not evidence that, as you stated, "Some posters here want the State of Israel to be obliterated"

Words matter. Stating that "Some posters here want the State of Israel to be obliterated" is a hefty accusation. I asked for evidence of "some posters". You have provided none.

Maybe the four people who thanked that post your referred to thanked the poster for calling out your support of genocide by Israel? Perhaps that was the worthwhile bit they they were thanking?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504872#Comment_121504872

Hmmm - how observant of you.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504880#Comment_121504880

Go click the link for post 24691: ceadaoin. had clearly understood Snooker's posts as calling for the obliteration of Israel and Snooker responded by explicitly defending doing so, in clear and unambiguous terms. And that poster explicitly used radical-Leftist language like "settler-colonialism" which is a provable falsehood. And their posts were popular. And yes, one generally does not thank posts unless there's something worthwhile in it. All I saw was deranged, genocidal psychobabble, but obviously the 4 fans saw something different.

And FWIW, a loaded question is the same as a statement, since it contains inherent claims.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504898#Comment_121504898

Why did you partially quote the post in question?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504671#Comment_121504671

It's revenge. The U,S quite early on reminded Israel not to follow the mistakes the US made post 9/11. They didn't listen, they turned the revenge dial up past 10.

How a country who suffered such a horrendous act of terrorism can loose public opinion in such a short timeframe makes you wonder the horrific suffering they are instilling on the innocent civilians in Gaza.

Israel could have used the Oct 7th attacks to bring about change in Gaza. They blew that, they went from victim to aggressor in days.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504905#Comment_121504905

I'll try again, one last time...

You said: "Some posters here want the State of Israel to be obliterated"

I asked for evidence.

So far, you have provided one poster who exhibited "deranged, genocidal psychobabble" and four people who thanked a particular post which, in your (paraphrased) means they are "probably on the same page to some extent."

So no, you've not provided evidence for your statement.

Can I suggest that if you're going to post a hefty accusation, at least be careful how you phrase it? If you had said "A poster wants the State of Israel to be obliterated", you and I wouldn't be going at this hammer and tongs. But as you stated it, you're suggesting that there is more than one poster actively calling for Israel to be obliterated - I just do not see that. Happy to be corrected though - still.

And for the record - I'm not negating everything you post. I find your posts challenging and informative - that's the mark of a healthy debate. I've certainly learned from you and that is appreciated. The alternative view to one's own is important to healthy debate. I've learned much by simply listening to the alternative viewpoints and trying not to be entrenched in my own.

SeanW

Fair enough. My view was that it really was impossible to read Snooker Loopys posts and not conclude that they want to obliterate Israel. Nor can I see any reason for thanking their posts other than broad alignment between (for the want of better words) thanker and thanked.

That was why I came to the conclusion that I did.

sock.rocker*

Pretty tiresome when people argue things they don't actually believe. Have some self respect.

sock.rocker*

Wonder if there will be much fallout from the war crime of murdering surrendering unarmed men. The fact they were actually Israeli hostages is completely insignificant really and is just the reason we know about it.

HalloweenJack

@SeanW

"There are many countries in the world solely based on religion. Many countries have the crescent moon on their flag and some explicitly state that the Quran is their constitution. If the only state in the world you have a real problem with the existence of, is the one that also co-incidentally happens to be the worlds' only Jewish state ... that raises questions."

That's quite a leap from the context of this thread and you're making a lot of assumptions about those criticising Israel's actions. It's just more whataboutery and ignoring the point I made:

Criticising Israel does not automatically mean the critic is anti-Semitic. Throwing out that accusation deflects from the criticism and also suggests that the person making it knows they can't justify Israeli actions so they need another line of defence.

I doubt you'll change your mind or approach but plenty of people are aware of how and why this tactic works and how it is a disingenuous form of debating.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504400#Comment_121504400

Nope.

Its not a racist issue and its a lazy tired argument but tbf it gets you a few likes every time.

brickster69

Latest numbers from 7th October. Currently 300 times more children have been killed in Gaza since then

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504920#Comment_121504920

I think that's a Western perspective.

Neither side in this conflict care about external opinion. It's water of a ducks back. Moderate approach hasn't worked for either side. Expecting them to try it again after such an massacre is naive.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504332#Comment_121504332

But your videos are not only not relevant, they are deeply misleading: the videos you showed were of Orthodox Jews who are dispensed from military service. Those are the Israelis who are hostile to Christians. Not the average Israeli "man in the street", who, if anything, is probably less likely to be anti Christian than the average person in Europe is likely to be antisemitic.

So, the incidents you showed are not representative of the average Israeli "man in the street", and are of people who are FAR less likely to be serving in Gaza than the "average" Israeli anyway.

In other words, you're showing carefully cherry-picked incidents to create a false narrative about Israelis in general, and the soldiers in the IDF. Now maybe that's because you're ignorant of the realities in that region of the world, but TBH at this stage I think plain old antisemitism is more likely to be the explanation. Nobody happens on curated videos like that by accident - it shows what sites you hang out on, looking for antisemitic propaganda.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504395#Comment_121504395

Probably less than RT or PressTV, but they're certainly no longer an independent voice.

Why do you think they aren't liars, given who owns them?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505449#Comment_121505449

Of course it must be antisemitism. What else could motivate a person who who tries to deny Israeli snipers' right to summarily execute two unarmed women. Everyone know the women committed the grievous crime of being near a Christian church in Gaza. A bit of R&R for the poor soldiers.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504872#Comment_121504872

Eh, South Africa is still a state. It's the Apartheid that was 'obliterated'

brickster69

MSC now diverting ships away from Suez. Those just in time supply chains will be turning to not on time supply chains soon enough.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67738792

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505455#Comment_121505455

Not what I said though. When you have to lie about other posters' posts, you're the one with the problem.

jmreire

...

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505496#Comment_121505496

That depends on the broadcasting legislation in each country and the protections afforded to freedom of thought and speech.

For example, you don't really imagine that Russia Today has the same level of editorial independence as the BBC do you? Yet both of them are state-owned.

Or maybe you do?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505454#Comment_121505454

I didn't say they weren't liars. I was just checking what your own views were. I didn't express a view.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504914#Comment_121504914

My first thought is "why do you want to know?"

But since you asked - I wouldn't be in the habit of quoting every single word someone has posted - just the salient points that (in my opinion) further the debate.

If you think I was trying to be surreptitious, manipulative or disingenuous then just say so. I don't think I was. If you're just asking a genuine question, see the above response.

If you read the particular thread of the debate, I think that debate is over. But feel free to resurrect it.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505507#Comment_121505507

When you consider that blatant anti-semitic image posted by @brickster69 includes *a pentagram* FFS, you get the idea of who, exactly, you're dealing with. "I'm not antisemitic, but I play one on Boards." Ignoring your point that AlJazeera is, in fact, run by the Qatar government, unlike, say, Disney.

Sorry to have misattributed this racist nonsense in my initial post.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505513#Comment_121505513

Surely my post made it clear that I feel a certain level of scepticism towards Al Jazeera these days? What did you think I was going to say?

Or did you not realise they are owned by the Qatari state? Or perhaps you imagined that Qatar operates the same sort of largely benevolent overview of its media that, say the UK does? Naive of you, if so.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/sep/30/al-jazeera-independence-questioned-qatar

FWIW I think they were launched with the intention of being an independent Arab voice, but for several reasons, including financially, that hasn't worked out well for them. https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/al-jazeera-criticized-for-lack-of-independence-after-arab-spring-a-883343.html

Which is why in this latest conflict, they've shown their bias several times, such as abruptly ending an interview with an injured man in Gaza who dared blame Hamas' strategy of hiding among civilians for his injuries. They only wanted to hear that it was the evil Jews who did it.

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505496#Comment_121505496

To be fair to Jewish folk, for their number they are incredibly successful. And nearly 25% of Nobel prize winners are of Jewish blood.

Probably another conspiracy in there I suppose.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505560#Comment_121505560

I have no idea what you were going to say. I didn't give it a moment's thought. I just asked a simple question.

I'm well aware of who owns them. But if our decisions on which media to trust is based on ownership alone, there would be very few trusted sources of information.

I much prefer to read individual trusted journalists and not base my consumption of news on any particular outlet. And if you read your own quotes from the Guardian and Spiegel, you'll see that the Al Jazeera journalists had major issues with their employer.

Scepticism is a good thing and like you, I would have a healthy scepticism of the media I consume.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505537#Comment_121505537

What image ?