Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504132#Comment_121504132

They were attacked on Oct 7th , lots of Israelis are fairly upset still

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121507718#Comment_121507718

What's the end game here? What's the acceptable revenge kill rate for Israel - it's clearly not an eye for an eye?

Wipe out Hamas, wipe out the concept of Palestinian state, raze the housing and infrastructure in Gaza?

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121508942#Comment_121508942

I don't think anyone has ever claimed there were no Jewish people in Palestine, but they were a minority group. In fact there were more Christians in Palestine than Jewish people before Zionism. By 1900, the population was about 20,000 Jewish and 500,000 Arabs.

The start of this conflict was not the creation of Israel, it started when Britain back Zionism through the Balfour agreement and when the Great powers ignored the recommendations of their own commission of enquiry post WW1, which advised against Zionism and the creation of a Jewish state in that region. Based on their research in the region, The Commission recognised that any attempt to create a Jewish state would lead to conflict and here we are 100 years later.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121508772#Comment_121508772

This is exactly the point. Right thinking people have no issue with Jews per se. Jewish citizens in Ireland have the same rights and obligations as the rest of society here.

The problem arises with the aggregation of Jewish people into the state of Israel and how that state has conducted it's affairs with it's neighbours and with displaced people of the region. They have lost the right to be considered a civilised state and must now be isolated and prosecuted for war crimes. I expect that this onslaught has sowed the seeds of terminal decline for Israel. They are the authors of their own misfortune.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121508450#Comment_121508450

Israel is not defending itself. It is engaged on a campaign to eradicate Palestine as a legal entity and is quite prepared to massacre innocents in doing so. It's a campaign too far gone to salvage a peaceful solution unfortunately. One thing that Israel might not have taken into consideration though, is that even if they repopulate all the occupied territories, do they really think they will have 'won the war'? If Palestinians are made to disperse worldwide it will certainly make international Jewish infrastructure and people targets in whatever new phase this war will take. Israel will have made themselves a new, invisible enemy.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121508592#Comment_121508592

It baffles me that people still have this view. It's as if there were no jews in the area in 1946. Or 1846. Or AD46.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509215#Comment_121509215

I saw a well known psychologist suggesting last night that Israel going straight into murderous revenge mode almost instantly after October 7th was hugely ill advised. People in Israel hadn't even a moment to grieve or to process the awful events - attacking Gaza and its civilians like this out of pure spite and revenge is just adding to the trauma.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509143#Comment_121509143

You can see from past conflicts and wars Israel always does this. You kill one mine I'll kill 10 of yours.

Seems to be the plan. Seems unreasonable to me. But then Israel has done this in the past. I guess Hamas upped the ante, thus so did Israel. Entirely predictable.

Circle of violence continues.

I guess I remember the Lebanon war/invasion. Feels like deja vu.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509143#Comment_121509143

The 22:1 kill ratio has been well surpassed so I think Israel is all in.

Judging by recent statements from the Israeli war cabinet, they will continue this course, regardless of countless calls to stop, until the bitter end.

The numbers of Palestinian dead will continue to increase as will the discomfort of those denying genocide - until the facts speak for themselves.

And when all done, Israel will still be surrounded by people who would see them destroyed.

Strategic failure indeed.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509248#Comment_121509248

But they've well passed 10:1 now, have they not? I put it to you that they have no plan at the moment other than maybe to make Gaza uninhabitable, at whatever cost of human life.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509248#Comment_121509248

Correct, but one major difference is that Israel were able to completely control the narrative in the past via their numerous fanboys / lackeys in the western media. Social media has changed everything and people in the West are no longer relying on what the mainstream media has to say - which means they are hearing way more anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian voices for the first time ever.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121508874#Comment_121508874

The neighbouring countries tried that before. It didn't go well: they ended up losing the wars they started, losing territory themselves (Sinai and the Golan Heights in particular), and having to take in the resulting Palestinian refugees, and finally in some cases ended up themselves killing, blockading or deporting said Palestinian refugees. So I think they may pass on that unless they're sure the west is all-in with them and will take the Palestinians as needed. Another reason not to support Hamas, IMO.

I think Iran and Russia are happy to help Hamas though (and are probably behind the Oct 7th attacks), because they're that bit further away that they won't have to assume the consequences of their actions. Not sure about Turkey though: despite Erdogan's undoubted sympathy for fellow Muslims, I expect they won't want to get too involved in supporting troublesome guerrilla fighters using terror against an organised state - for obvious reasons.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509267#Comment_121509267

That’s pretty much my take on it at this stage, and that’s coming from someone who supported them in the early stages of this invasion after the Hamas attacks- but not now.

They are clearly wanting the destruction of not just Hamas at this point but also the complete displacement of literally millions of people - I don’t see how bulldozing houses graveyards ancient religious buildings and cultural artefacts is part of “going after Hamas”.

Given the terrorist make up of Hamas, it’s not like you can simply target a few strategic buildings and bam, 80% of Hamas destroyed- they’re intertwined across that strip of land with 100,000s of innocent people - it’s an impossible task which is why after the first few weeks of this invasion peace talks should have been the next step.

Whatever enemies Israel had to date, they’ve now multiplied 10 fold.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509153#Comment_121509153

Your figures are off.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_%28region%29

The increase in numbers started before the Balfour agreement. Thus imo it's misleading to imply the great powers initiated it.

None of this happened in a vacuum.

2smiggy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509295#Comment_121509295

I always thought this suited Russia the most. Taking the eye off their own invasion.

This may stop the unlimited supply of US weapons to isreal, as they don't seem to be as popular as they thought they were among the American population. Without America would be interesting to see how they do

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121506665#Comment_121506665

I asked the above question a couple of day ago, and was specifically interested in the views of Israel supporters. It looks like no one has responded to this so am pointing to it again, with an added angle.

If you think that Hamas is likely to be able draw on greater recruitment resources as a consequence of the last 10 weeks, would you say that this means that Israel's approach was flawed?

Palmach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494774#Comment_121494774

Naturally they don't state it. https://bdsmovement.net/call

"3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194." In other words using demographics to destroy Israel.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509352#Comment_121509352

Look down that same wikipedia page and you will see population of Ottoman Palestine is more or less what I said, this might depend on which source is used but the McCarthy one is much more detailed as it gives yearly figures whilst the one you are quoting are less detailed and says estimated underneath.

Zionism started in the 1890s, so that was when the idea of a Jewish state started and Jewish people were encouraged to move to Palestine. The area was under Ottoman rule, so the chances of a Jewish state were pretty .minimal. It was the Balfour declaration that promised the Zionists a Jewish state in the region after the break-up of the Ottoman Empire after WW1. Following WW1, a Commission of Enquiry was set up during the Peace talks to figure out how to best break-up the Austria-Hungarian, German & Ottoman Empires. That was primarily at the behest of the Great Powers, Britain, France and to a lesser extent Italy with the US overseeing things. The Commission looked at the feasibility of the creation of the various new states and made recommendations on what should happen. In most cases, they were listened to, but on Palestine they were ignored due to the interests of Britain & France. The British wanted control of Palestine as they had wanted to fulfil the promises they made in the Balfour agreement.

So this is very much the fault of the Great Powers as they ignored their own commission and put their own self-interest ahead of the wishes of the local populations. The whole theme post WW1 was self-determination, were the Palestinians afforded that right? Of course not.

Palmach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494822#Comment_121494822

None of this is true. Israel has said no such thing. No one knows what will be the end of this after Hamas, are hopefully eradicated.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509541#Comment_121509541

I didn't see your post before, but TBH I think the urgency for Israel now is to prevent more attacks such as already happened on Oct 7th. I mean, I don't really see how the risk of more supporters in the future can make the problem significantly worse than the existing crowds cheering as the brutalized corpse of a young woman was paraded through Gaza that day.

Hamas have said they plan more Oct 7th attacks. I think Israel has decided that they need to deal with that immediate threat, and that any future potential threat has to come second to that. Especially as people saying that this will increase support for Hamas never seem to have any practical suggestions for reducing support for Hamas - other than for Israel to stop existing.

But maybe you're an exception, and you do have alternatives to propose that will ensure that there isn't another Oct 7th in January or February? Or next year?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121507655#Comment_121507655

Israel should obey international conventions on civilians in war zones, right?

Or do you think they should obey other rules that you think would be better than the Geneva Convention and whatever other agreements exist?

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509247#Comment_121509247

I think Israel's reaction to Oct 7th played into Hamas's hands. Israel is becoming increasingly isolated internationally and a huge swathe of Israeli citizens and Jews alike are becoming disgusted by the actions of Netanyahu's government. The most sensible, logical and beneficial thing Israel could do is agree to a ceasefire but they're obviously too far gone for that.

It really is horrible to watch.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509688#Comment_121509688

I'd still argue you're implying it all started post WW1. It didn't.

I would agree that the Arabs / Palestinians got shafted. Arab revolt etc. That betrayal certainly was planned and deliberate by the great powers after WW1. They did the same after WW2.

That certainly is what led to all this. So the idea of us looking at this from a western point of view and applying our opinions to them, is ironic and hardly surprising it's gets short thrift.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509658#Comment_121509658

In other words using demographics to destroy Israel.

You mean, 'In your words'.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509245#Comment_121509245

'Who was here first' isn't really the point. The point is that now, Israeli law protects the civil rights of Jewish people only. It is by definition an apartheid state.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509767#Comment_121509767

Absolutely. They are heading towards apartheid era South Africa status at this rate - a pariah state that nobody will want any dealings with. Anyone can see they are aggressive in the extreme and are not 'defending' anything.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509768#Comment_121509768

Well the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine was not really likely until it was given the official stamp under the Balfour declaration. When the British mandate was created post WW1, it was with the express idea of encouraging foreign Jews to move there. If there had been no Balfour . declaration, it is highly likely there would be no Jewish state. Maybe Zionists might have still moved there with the aim of creating a state, but it would have been much less appealing without the security of the British in Palestine. Would the Jewish people have lived under Arab rule?

Palmach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509782#Comment_121509782

Any objective assessment would conclude that is the end goal. Allowing millions of people to flood into another country will change the demographic makeup of that country.

Palmach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509789#Comment_121509789

This is a lie. An egregious one at that. Israeli law is crystal clear. You cannot discriminate against a person on the basis of religion, skin colour sex or sexual orientation. It has been that way since they brought in legislation on it in the 70s.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509541#Comment_121509541

Perhaps people think it pointless to engage when you've already typecast any opinions other than your own with a leading question.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509808#Comment_121509808

There's no maybe about it. The figures clearly show significant demographic changes prior to it.

Even Arabs don't live peacefully under Arab rule. Look how much infighting goes on, with no small cost to the people living there. As Brian learnt to his cost.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509832#Comment_121509832

100m in Egypt. Does that help?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121508596#Comment_121508596

Israel obviously felt that it was more important to target the civilian population and kill as many women and children as possible to settle old scored before turning their attention to Hamas. This just proves how they value Palestinians and why they referred to them as human animals.

batman75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121508450#Comment_121508450

You have chosen to defend Israel which is your right. You are morally on the wrong side of the fence. What Israel is doing is immoral. If you support Israel's actions you are supporting genocide and ethnic cleansing. The Palestinian people have a right to exist and a right to a homeland. Israel since it's formation in 1948 has played fast and loose with international law.

The holocaust as horrific as it was doesn't give Israel the right to ethnic cleans another group of people. What Israel is doing is indefensible. Equally the United States President has brought great shame to the country by backing Israel and worse still arming it to commit genocide. That will be Biden's legacy.

Israel does have a right to exist but so do the Palestinian people. Israel doesn't get to play judge and jury on an ethnic group's right to exist. They have clearly learned no lessons from history.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509789#Comment_121509789

Have you ever been there, spoken to an israeli, or read their laws? It's a secular state by definition.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509248#Comment_121509248

As has been said numerous times, Hamas and the current Israeli Goverment have one thing in common: they don't care about the Palestinians. Hamas knew what the response to the attacks would be yet went ahead anyway. The more Palestinians that died the better for their propaganda purposes. Israel does have a right to defend itself,but

this is where I depart from those who try to frame opposition to Israel based purely on political ideology and race because of their own political ideals. Using their logic any country in the pursuit of what it deems to be self defense can get away with doing just about anything, and sure look it bad things happen in war -until its the side I support that are on the receiving end then I will abandon that argument rather than be consistent.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509716#Comment_121509716

Hamas will not be eradicated. Hamas or whatever other organisation replaces them will have their numbers swollen by the relatives of the people they have murdered in their attempt to make Gaza part of Israel. That is what they are attempting. Israel will be worse off after all this. Their actions will guarantee that their enemies are even more aggressive in the future and Israel will never have the peace the population crave for. They will always be looking over their shoulders.

nacho libre

I was saying this to a friend of mine recently. Social Media has made Mark Regev's job much harder. In the past he had it much easier in the absence of Social Media. He is still to his credit is a slick performer but his spin can be more easily debunked in this day and age.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509285#Comment_121509285

Flinty997

Can't think it will change much.

There will still be unrest with a two state solution. But perhaps life would improve for more ordinary people.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509841#Comment_121509841

Cool, it's not that difficult to refute the point being presumed.

Something tells me that you'd have done that if you had a genuine answer.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510070#Comment_121510070

Less people if they have good prospects will be drawn to radicalism anyway. That is how you truly weaken the likes of Hamas long term. Unfortunately normalisation of relations horrifies the likes of Bibi who has no interest in a two state solution. He wants to see the end of Hamas to save his own skin, but long term he will want another radical group to take over in Gaza to maintain the status quo.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510088#Comment_121510088

Don't shoot the messenger. It reads as an insincere question. You've basically confirmed it with this reply, and attacking me for some reason.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510070#Comment_121510070

There was a time when people thought that about Northern Ireland, and common sense prevailed. Eventually. Don't get me wrong, but that is a more likely outcome than the removal of one of the parties in its entirety.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510113#Comment_121510113

Does seem like that. Both sides seem to want to keep the conflict alive.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510182#Comment_121510182

Oh I agree.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509866#Comment_121509866

So in that case, the problem was Zionism because it was after 1890 that movement to Palestine really increased. Before that, those who went there were prepared to live under Ottoman rule.

Some Arab countries like UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman etc are quite stable, even if by western standards their adherence to Muslim law is excessive. Several of the one's that are a mess are where Western nations had their claws in for longer, with various groups mixed in together.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509992#Comment_121509992

Have you?

Flinty997

Seem to remember Kuwait being invaded by Iraq.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510061#Comment_121510061

Also, the western media (press and TV) were more inclined to push the Israeli viewpoint up until now - definitely the case with commentators and opinion shapers.

As you say, social media has ruined things for them - their numerous lies are getting exposed to the point where nobody believes anything they say any more.

Palmach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510032#Comment_121510032

If they liquidate Hamas it will be a lesson for future Hamas types. F** around. Find out. Many terrorist groups have been eradicated in the past and have never come back.