Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516833#Comment_121516833

And there is no evidence of White Phospherous use.

Wrong (Link)

The Israeli army fired artillery shells containing white phosphorus, an incendiary weapon, in military operations along Lebanon’s southern border between 10 and 16 October 2023, Amnesty International said today.

We've seen the disparity between what Israel was claiming Hamas was doing, and what evidence Israel found showing what Hamas was doing.

And when Israel itself is claiming only about 5% of deaths are Hamas personnel, then it is no excuse to say that Hamas are using people as shields and therefore it is their responsibility. Israel is dropping non-precision bombs in one of the most densely populated places on earth and doing so knowing what the collateral damage is going to be.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516829#Comment_121516829

A point of view that says there should be an immediate ceasefire and withdrawal from Gaza is certainly not a minority point of view in Ireland.

As far back as Nov 5, 71% of Irish people polled believed Israel’s response was “disproportionate in its severity”. The additional thousands of dead women and children since then will only have added to that figure.

You are in the minority, in this country at least.

ceadaoin.

It seems at least one of the kidnapping victims, who we have all seen being taken away on a motorbike, was taken by a mob of Gazan civilians, and not Hamas.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/noa-argamani-israel-hamas-hostages-nova-music-festival-rcna129792

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516320#Comment_121516320

I don't see the poster (or the likes of the poster) denying israel the right to exist?

if I denied Israel the right to exist (which I don't) are you saying that that is why they are doing what they are doing? I doubt the Israelis give any thoughts to what I think. Or the UN.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516829#Comment_121516829

I would argue that the majority are of the view that what Israel is doing is disproportionate. And that is borne out by the UN vote for a ceasefire. That is not silent.

Are you saying that if Israel had wiped out Gaza in 24 hours that would have been genocide? And are you genocide is a concept based on a percentage of a population?

As for employing some Arabs, I think it's a stretch to use that as evidence that there is no discrimination in Israel.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516752#Comment_121516752

You're missing the point, the people who made that picture don't care and they don't pretend to care. What are they trying to say it that these rallies are hypocritical and motivated by antisemitism. The crowd on that bridge doesn't really care about muslim lives, they are there only because they hate the jews.

Same goes for BLM, they were never interested in doing anything for the blacks, they embezzled the money and they bought mansions. They were only motivated by their racism against whites.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516937#Comment_121516937

So? Or are you throwing this out there as a quasi justification for murdering thousands of Palestinian women and children?

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517170#Comment_121517170

No, I'm not doing that. It's a new development related to the topic of this thread. A girl was taken god knows where and probably raped and murdered. Your response is "so?". Good for you, continue with the empathetic view point 👍👍

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517198#Comment_121517198

Do you support an immediate ceasefire in Gaza? We absolutely need to stop the murder of innocent women and children. Hopefully you agree?

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517210#Comment_121517210

All those children murdered by Israel were voting? Listen to yourself man. The notion that innocent Palestinians deserve to be murdered indiscriminately is an abhorrent view, that is not shared by the vast majority of right thinking Irish people. You should feel ashamed to espouse it here.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517013#Comment_121517013

This post is overloaded with your subjective opinion on both the makers of the meme, and the motivations of BLM.

How do you know specifically about why the person who made the meme made? And that aside, it was the context in which it was being used her that I was referring to, and in that case, it seems you agree with me, that others who bring up different crises situations are doing so mostly to shut down a particular angle of discussion on this crisis.

With respect to BLM, again, it is unreasonable and unfair to attribute the behavior of some to being reflective of the entire movement of people who approved the core message that Black Lives do Matter. It is frequently said on here that 'the BLM protests were all about violence'. They weren't. Absolutely there were some at which there was violence. A lot of violence. No one is disputing that. But the vast majority of protests were peaceful and the vast majority of attendees were similarly motivated. I think something like 0.002% of the total volume of people who were estimated to have attended protests were arrested for actions at them. Say only 1 person in every 100 who committed violence was arrested. That's still only 0.2% of all attendees which means 99.8% of people were peaceful. Is it appropriate to suggest that an organization should be judged based on the actions of 0.2% of its members or the 99.8%?

There is corruption in politics, in police forces, in religions, in industry, in non-profit organisations, wherever there are people. There is no debate there. But to discount the entirety of a movement because of the behaviour of a handful of people is disingenuous, particularly when those people were not specifically involved in directing all of the people who agreed with the sentiment that the movement was expressing.

And its been proven to be beyond ridiculous to imply that movements calling for the safety of the Palestinian people are instead motivated by antisemitism. It is shocking to see people so absolved of compassion that they would look to twist empathy for those dying in to somehow being hatred for those of the same religion as those doing the killing.

Or do you think that marches organized by and attended by Jewish people calling for a ceasefire are also anti-Semitic in nature? If not, please explain how you don't think those are, but the ones referenced above are.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516829#Comment_121516829

Ah the old, I can’t be a racist some of my best friends are black trope, repurposed for Israel.

Doesn't work anymore.

Its like claiming Trump can’t be sexist, he had women in his government. Laughable logic.

The world can see Israel for what it is now. No amount of Hasbara will put the genie back in the bottle.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517210#Comment_121517210

Do you know that not a single person under the age of 35 voted for Hamas? Are you saying people deserve what comes to them because of the governments they voted for?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517198#Comment_121517198

Here's another development. Care to respond?

and do you have evidence the girl you refer to was raped/murdered or is that just supposition?

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67768062?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6582c84298b40e4897f588d8%26Red%20Crescent%20says%20Jabalia%20ambulance%20depot%20besieged%262023-12-20T11%3A23%3A40.308Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:5d474d7b-4c1b-490f-b6e6-507662cec0a7&pinned_post_asset_id=6582c84298b40e4897f588d8&pinned_post_type=share

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516047#Comment_121516047

Well you introduced Yemen and Syria and China. If Russia-Ukraine more relevant to the discussion than those? Most definitely yes. Israel bases its claim to the region on a book that is a few thousand years old that says their god gave them some vague area of the Middle East to own.

Russia, in contrast, has the much stronger origin story of the Kievan Rus which is relatively far more recent in time and is actually supported by contemporaneous accounts and archaeology.

Israel claims it is at permanent risk of destruction from a population of about 2 million people living permanently at a subsistence level on the brink of starvation. Russia claims it is at permanent risk from the West who were expanding their influence through West-leaning politicians and policies into Ukraine. Which is completely true. So rather than 2m starving people, the Ukrainians have tens of millions of their own people, a sophisticated military, and the backing of hundreds of millions of the wealthiest people in the world via their respective governments. Both Israel and Russia have nuclear weapons. Palestinians don't, but the Western backers f Ukraine most certainly do.

I don't think that Russia has any justification for what it is doing, but I recognize that their claims to have are far stronger than Israel has. And I definitely don't think that Israel has any justification at all. You appear to have the opinion that Israel has the justification to kill all the brown Muslims, but that Russia doesn't have justification to kill the Christian Caucasians in Ukraine. It is difficult to rationalize that cognitive dissonance.

Pro-tip for you for today - don't introduce irrelevant nonsense if you don't like it being mirrored back to you.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517737#Comment_121517737

If anything, the Israeli public seem way more extreme and radicalised and bloodthirsty than the Palestinians : 90%+ support for the continual bombing of Gaza, even though they know many thousands of innocent civilians are being killed.

dmcdona

reply to bigwill123

from this source:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine

Following the Fatah–Hamas conflict that started in 2006, Hamas formed a government ruling the Gaza Strip without elections. Gazan Prime Minister Haniyye announced in September 2012 the formation of a second Hamas government, also without elections.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517621#Comment_121517621

Both sides are equally as bad. On one side you have Israeli minister calling for the territory to be nuked. And on the other side, the local dispso "Jimmy the drunk" was heard to slur the phrase "**** Israel" as he was being thrown out of the local pub here last Friday night at closing time.

Equally as bad.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517210#Comment_121517210

Who do you think the people of Gaza will vote for next time? Seeing their mothers, brothers and sisters murdered and their hospitals bombed, their doctors and journalists murdered and then their oppressors starving them will ensure that Hamas, or another organisation who are even more determined to fight, will have the votes. Rinse and repeat.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517413#Comment_121517413

You left an "e" out of sexiest

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517737#Comment_121517737

Even then, it was a party as part of a government and they got 44% to Fatah's 41%. Then there was a whole war and shlt and Hamas took over. That wasn't voted for.

It was 44% of a vote in an election 16 years ago with a 75% turnout. With such a ridiculously young population, the percentage of people alive who voted for Hamas is so low that to weaponise it and justify the murders happening now is either stupidity or just happily lying to oneself.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517737#Comment_121517737

They never seem to think things out before posting ridiculous stuff. Either that or there are not enough women and children dying to satisfy their bloodlust.

tayto lover

Anthony Blinken tried to suppress Al Jazeera News from reporting what was going on in Gaza?? Blinken asked the Qatari government officials to stop them reporting. When they refused the chief reporter's family was killed in an Israeli strike. The US is now complicit in War Crimes imo.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/oct/27/us-asks-qatar-to-turn-down-the-volume-of-al-jazeera-news-coverage

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517982#Comment_121517982

I remember seeing a news report a few weeks back. A Palestinian lady in a hospital crying in Arabic. She had been in a convoy traveling to where they told was a safe area when Israel stuck them, killing some of her family, and maiming others. She blamed the US.

Why did she blame the US - well the US embassy had told them where to go to. Why had the US Embassy been telling them where to go to - well herself and her family were actually US citizens. She finished the interview by holding open all the US passports that she and her family held and pleased with the US government to help them. Some of them were already dead from the strike.

I cannot think of any other circumstance where the US would tolerate the deliberate murder of its citizens. Never mind doing so while supporting the murderers.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517982#Comment_121517982

I've watched some of Al Jazeera's coverage in English - it's actually pretty balanced and nuanced and informative, not hysterical anti-Israel ranting and raving (even though they do criticise Israel a lot naturally).

GeminiLad

Amnesty International. Really? May as well have Hamas reporting this themselves!

https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/amnesty-internationals-cruel-assault-on-israel/

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517413#Comment_121517413

Everyone is capable of racism. Some blatant, others subconscious but you cannot argue with fact.

Many Arabs enjoy a peaceful, prosperous and secure life within Israel.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516914#Comment_121516914

Ireland isn't really relevant to any player in the middle East though.

And most Irish ignorantly compare the situation in Israel to that of Northern Ireland. This shows complete ignorance and a serious lack of knowledge about the history of this conflict.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518258#Comment_121518258

It says a lot that you will blindly trust this far right think tank run out of Israel by people with connections to the Israeli government over one of the most respected humanitarian organisations in the world.

The fact that they've gone to the trouble of founding an extremist propaganda outlet with a neutral sounding name like "ngo monitor" specifically to try to discredit humanitarian organisations like Amnesty International also says a lot. If you scroll through their most recent articles you'll also find fact free hit pieces against Medicins Sans Frontieres, Human Rights Watch, the International Federation for Human Rights, the UN Human Rights council, Swedish and Norwegian international development and refugee agencies amongst many others. This organisation really seems to despise anyone who is in favour of such horrific sins as promoting human rights or providing shelter or medical aid to innocent civilians.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518264#Comment_121518264

Not at the moment though

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518273#Comment_121518273

How many Irish ignorantly compare the situation in Israel to that of Northern Ireland?

Do you have a source for that stat?

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518273#Comment_121518273

This is an Irish forum and I was responding to a post suggesting that there is a “silent majority” that support Israel’s continued murder of Palestinian women and children.

As for your subsequent point, I actually think Irish people have historical context for this situation and are attuned to its nuances, *because* of our experience of conflict with Britain. We know when a larger state is bullying its smaller neighbours, flouting International law and disseminating propaganda to obfuscate and confuse discussion around its actions.

Do you support an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and the discontinuance or Israel’s murder of innocent Palestinian women and children? Because that’s what a vast majority of right thinking Irish people stand for.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518258#Comment_121518258

Embarrassing.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515343#Comment_121515343

"What solutions have you offered to resolve this, rather than just decrying mine? What Israel is doing, isn't working, so let's see something original that treats the lives of all involved with equal value."

1. Ceasefire immediately once the hostages are returned.
2. Hamas leadership turned over to the ICC, probably by Qatar as they're hiding there. The one visiting Egypt could be first, fairly convenient to do. Qatar likely is in possession of a fair bit of Hamas intelligence that can help with the pursuit of these criminals.
3. Disarmament of civilians in Gaza.
4. Establishment of a joint Israeli/UN-sponsored administration for Gaza since it lacks functioning government (has since Hamas was elected). Eventually this can be UN-sponsored entirely, but I'm pretty sure Israel would want a role.
5. Gaza rebuilt with funding from the Arab League along with any nation that wishes to contribute, perhaps including Ireland and the US
6. Eventually a 2 state solution that establishes Gaza as a self-governing area, with defined boundaries and responsibilities for its own security and commerce.

Palmach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511693#Comment_121511693

They won't be let in.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519322#Comment_121519322

Good list. Off the top of my head, for balance, might I suggest:

2a turn over Israeli war cabinet to ICC

3a disarmament of all civilians in the West Bank

Palmach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511887#Comment_121511887

That's your reply? ALL Israeli citizens have equal rights.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517205#Comment_121517205

Yes of course, a ceasefire would be best for everyone. That means hamas need to return the hostages, or be honest about their fate if they can't, and stop firing rockets into Israel. They should probably also stop saying that they will do another October 7 type attack as soon as they can. Don't know why the calls for a ceasefire only ever seem to be about Israel. Both sides need to stop for it to work and both sides need to not break it by firing on the other, which is what hamas did last time so...

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517863#Comment_121517863

And yet, nobody cares about the actual genocide of East Turkestani people by China. There was no BDS movement against the PRC, no massive street protests denouncing China in the strongest possible terms. Nobody supporting terrorism against China, nobody calling for China to be obliterated in full. Nothing. Only "Israel" gets the ire of certain parties even though it actually has casus belli.

And yes, Israel does have much more casus belli than Russia has in Ukraine. Nobody in Ukraine wants all Russians dead. Nobody in Ukraine wants to drive the Russians into the sea. Ukraine has not been waging war against Russia for the last 2 decades, the way Gaza with its democratically elected Hamas government has. Russians do not have to keep bomb shelters to protect them against constant attacks by Ukrainian terrorists. Ukraine was never a threat to literally anyone on the recognised territory of Russia. Also Russia is a much, much larger country that Israel, which is a tiny country nearly a micro-state that is mostly desert. And Russias history is of attacking and actually committing genocide against its neighbours, rather than Israel's history which is of being under attack by its neighbours bent on their annihilation.

Russia/Ukraine and Israel/"Palestine" are opposite situations in virtually every respect.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517289#Comment_121517289

BLM ... weren't they the ones who cheered on Hamas in the immediate aftermath of the 7th of October attacks?

BLM Chicago under fire for pro-Palestinian post featuring paragliding terrorist (nypost.com)

You don't have to be a Hasabrabot (or some other such ridiculous epithet) to see what they were getting at ...

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519490#Comment_121519490

Not once did you stick up for the Russians protecting themselves against the Christians Caucasians SeanW. Not once. I've many posts calling them out for their actions in the likes of Bucha etc. Not once did you attempt to stick up for them or justify their butchery.

Not even a single solitary post. But as soon as people call for a slowdown of the Israeli genocide brown Muslims you sprang into action.

Get a big mirror and spend a while looking into it. If only I could be arsed enough about it to photoshop a stupid meme.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519532#Comment_121519532

Because Russia isn't defending itself against a mortal enemy bent on it's total annihilation.

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519490#Comment_121519490

People do care about what China is doing to the Uyghurs, just because it doesn't come onto your radar because they're Muslims doesn't mean everyone else feels the same.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519539#Comment_121519539

You can make up whatever excuses you like SeanW........The contrast is stark and we can all read between the lines...........

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519549#Comment_121519549

Where are the massive protests? Where are the calls for BDS against China? Where are the calls to "free" East Turkestan from the Mountains to the Sea?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519562#Comment_121519562

Well, I'm sure you'll read whatever you like between the lines, but the actual facts are clear.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519579#Comment_121519579

Perfectly clear SeanW. Not a single solitary post from you. Not one. You can remain in denial and insist black is white better than any IDF spokesperson or Israeli politician or "diplomat" if you want. Facts speak for themselves.

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519579#Comment_121519579

You said nobody cares, which is objectively untrue. How do you suggest ordinary people lobby against unjust policies carried out by an authoritarian regime like the PRC vs. a liberal democracy like Israel?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519454#Comment_121519454

If they march en masse as a column or series of columns, a peaceful movement of people, driven from their home lands and head to Israel - what are the IDF going to do? A column of old people, men, women & children with their possessions on carts and donkeys. Will ye mow them down with machine guns and tank rounds? Remember it is Israel that has destroyed much of their housing and infrastructure and ultimately Israel is liable for what happens to these people. Let them march on and settle in Israel.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519465#Comment_121519465

No they don't.

An Arab Israeli citizen and a Jewish Israeli citizen, while both citizens, enjoy different rights and privileges determined by their nationality.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519322#Comment_121519322

Do you notice any major difference between the solutions I offered, and yours here?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519704#Comment_121519704

I desperately went back to find your solutions (I know there was a post) but couldn't dig it out. Any chance you could point me there? Much appreciated.