Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524442#Comment_121524442

I agree, but what people have been marching for in London and elsewhere is a unilateral ceasefire, ie for Israel to stop. Hamas have already said they will continue more Al Aqsa Flood operations (Oct 7th) until Israel no longer exists.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524434#Comment_121524434

To the best of my knowledge, Dresden had no military value as such that helped the German war efforts, and therefore there was no real justification for the bombing. It was as I have already said, pure revenge, and nothing else, and I'd say that the bomber crews were cheering as they watched the bombs they had dropped explode far below them. And as we say here in Ireland, the craic was 90 in the bombers on the way home.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524316#Comment_121524316

Fair play is good sport - it was one poster.

They posted a very interesting and detailed article on the roots of Hamas.

whilst I agree with everyone here that the actions of Hamas on Oct 7 were abhorrent and Israel absolutely has the right to defend themselves. But "Hamas", as others have pointed out, is an ideology. Not just a bunch of terrorists.

I recall hearing a phrase years ago - in order to beat your enemy, understand them first.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121523479#Comment_121523479

Except Israel aren't indiscriminately murdering innocent women and children. Israel are going after Hamas, as they have every right to do. It is Hamas who hide amongst their own women and children resulting in civilians deaths. That is fact. No other military in the world are as tolerant and careful as the IDF, but they're participating in a propaganda war they cannot win.

What is abhorrent is the complete lack of knowledge about the history of this conflict. How many times have the Palestinian's been offered the two state solution? Six I believe, and no agreement. I'm thinking they don't really want it and anyone who says they do are living in cloud cookoo land.

Gaza was free. No IDF presence, no Jews and hundreds of millions of aid incoming every year to build a prosperous future. Look at it today. Money used to build tunnels to attack Israel, thousands of rockets built to fire indiscriminately at Israel and the enrichment of individuals within the higher echelons of these terrorist groups. It's a calipahte, similar to ISIS and a complete tragedy for innocent Palestinians living in Gaza that have no voice to criticise Hamas, if they do they and their families will be punished. Severely!

Bottom line: If the Palestinians put their guns down there will be peace. If the Israeli's put there guns down there will be no Israel.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524453#Comment_121524453

Perhaps that why the UN cannot currently agree a wording that both Israel and Hamas will sign up to.

I would fully understand why Israel would not support a unilateral ceasefire. And that is their right. As much as I would like to see the bombing stop, I do get their reasoning.

Perhaps this really will only end when Hamas are neutralised to the satisfaction of Israel. If so, I think the numbers of civilian deaths we are seeing today are paltry. An extended campaign of even a few more weeks will see disease and hunger set in - many will die from that.

There will be no winners here - civilians decimated and Israel possible an international pariah for decades and they will still not have the security they crave.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524515#Comment_121524515

Do you any further info on those six or so instances? It's not a loaded question - I'm not disputing it.

I'd be interested to see why the offers were rejected.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121523802#Comment_121523802

He said the situation is as bad as he's seen, not a mention that Israel are worse than the Khmer Rouge.

Because you have to take it in context.

Israel are not exterminating innocent women and children like the Nazi's did. Israel are neitralizing legitimate terrorist personnel and infrastructure. Hamas will purposely house this infrastructure/personnel within close proximity to innocent civilians which makes Israel the bad guy when they strike these targets.

Makes you wonder doesn't it.. (or at least it should) what Hamas had to gain from October 7th. You look around the world at all the protests and international condemnation of Israel and it begins to make sense. This is a propaganda war to Hamas and the ace in their pocket is the amount of 'civilian' lives lost.

There were no missiles or war planes attacking Gaza on October 6th. No settlements and no stealing of land in Gaza. So why butcher thousands of innocent people? 🤔

Do people not expect Israel to hold Hamas to account for October 7th attacks?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521200#Comment_121521200

How is Irish sympathy for Palestinians mis-guided? They are being wiped out, starved and bombed continuously for 9 weeks now for something they didn't do as a people. And not a prisoner freed yet by the IDF. They shot dead the 3 who managed to escape and seek their help of course.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524566#Comment_121524566

Rejection number one.

The suggested split was heavily in favor of the Arabs. The British offered them 80% of the disputed territory, the Jews the remaining 20%. Yet, despite the tiny size of their proposed state, the Jews voted to accept this offer. But the Arabs rejected it and resumed their violent rebellion.

Rejection number two.

Ten years later, in 1947, the British asked the United Nations to find a new solution to the continuing tensions. Like the Peal Commission, the UN decided that the best way to resolve the conflict was to divide the land. In November 1947, the UN voted to create two states. Again, the Jews accepted the offer and again, the Arabs rejected it.

Only this time, they did so by launching an all-out war. Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria joined the conflict. But they failed. Israel won the war and got on with the business of building a new nation. Most of the land set aside by the UN for an Arab state, the West Bank and East Jerusalem, became occupied territory. Occupied not by Israel, but by Jordan.

Rejection number three.

20 years later, in 1967, the Arabs led this time by Egypt and joined by Syria and Jordan, once again sought to destroy the Jewish state. The 1967 conflict, known as the Six-Day War, ended in a stunning victory for Israel. Jerusalem and the West Bank, as well as the area known as the Gaza Strip, fell into Israel’s hands.

The government split over what to do with this new territory. Half wanted to return the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt in exchange for peace. The other half wanted to give it to the region’s Arabs, who had begun referring to themselves as the Palestinians, in the hope that they would ultimately build their own state there.

Neither initiative got very far.

A few months later, the Arab League met in Sudan and issued its infamous three-NOs, no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel. Again, a two-state solution was dismissed by the Arabs.

Rejection number four.

In 2000, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak met at Camp David, with Palestinian Liberation Organization Chairman Nasser Arafat, to conclude a new two-state plan. Barak offered Arafat a Palestinian state in all of Gaza, and 94% of the West Bank, with East Jerusalem as its capital. But the Palestinian leader rejected the offer.

In the words of U.S. President Bill Clinton, “Arafat was here 14 days and said no to everything.”

Instead, the Palestinians launched a bloody wave of suicide bombings that killed over 1,000 Israelis and maimed thousands more, on buses, in wedding halls, and in pizza parlors.

Rejection number five.

In 2008, Israel tried yet again. Prime Minister Ehud Omar went even further than Ehud Barak had, expanding the peace offer to include additional land to sweeten the deal. Like his predecessor, the new Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas, turned the deal down.

https://africachinapresscentre.org/2023/10/13/5-times-in-the-past-palestine-rejected-offer-to-have-its-state-they-want-israel-out-of-existence/

ollkiller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524515#Comment_121524515

Theres so many points i could take but we'll take 1 line from your post. Id be here all night if I went through it all. "Theres no one as careful or tolerant as the IDF" you say. They shot 3 of their own hostages who were waving a white flag and shouting in hebrew. How careful were they then.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524442#Comment_121524442

I totally agree, a complete ceasefire is the absolute optimum.

I really hope it happens. Really. Contrary to posters belief I am not ' pro Israeli ' I just see things from both sides.

Both sides need to come to some agreement on a ceasefire and release of hostages. That's in the short term, to stop more innocents being killed.

In the long term, I don't know how it can be worked out.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521302#Comment_121521302

Surely you can't be proud of what's happening in Gaza?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521331#Comment_121521331

The US and Israel are the only countries that should be embarrasses. Imagine nearly 14,000 women and children murdered now??

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121523491#Comment_121523491

He's been posting that for awhile now. No shame on him at all regarding all the dead 5 year olds as that's the average age of the children murdered.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524259#Comment_121524259

That's not how you spell 'appalling '.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121523638#Comment_121523638

Of course they did.

From the period of 2005 to October 2023, Gaza was wholly administered by Hamas. It was essentially a region that was autonomous from Israel. Hamas used that time to build up an army with the sole purpose of attacking Israel. These aren't just a few dudes with Kalashnikov's either. It's two and a half months since the fighting started and they are still capable of launching rocket attacks into Israel. They are well prepared, organized and know exactly what they are doing.

With that said, these Hamas people are really, really stupid. What they've done is the equivalent to you or me downing ten pints, goading Tyson Fury into a fight, before getting pounded to hell for about 30 seconds and begging someone to step in to stop the fight. Unfortunately it's ordinary Gaza citizens that take the brunt of the punishment, as opposed to the Hamas leadership in Qatari exile.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524387#Comment_121524387

they definitely haven't been doing it at all bar one time for propaganda purposes, never mind for years.

the "roof knocking" is the dropping of high entencity explosive charges, that are designed for particular types of building.

essentially designed for narrow areas but beyond maximum kill.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524393#Comment_121524393

it's the actual fact of the israely state, simply stated by someone who happens to be a very prowd irish republican.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524717#Comment_121524717

Hamas are still in their actions far more 'evil', they need to go and they should have been gotten rid of years ago (Not be strengthened because they were and dare I say still are a useful tool for Bibi and the far-right/settlers)

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121523461#Comment_121523461

You can stop right there. Disgusting.

If you want to go that way then look at dresden or the second nuke in Japan. Again Disgusting.

Learn your lesson or we'll annilate civilians. Again Disgusting.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524515#Comment_121524515

Sweet jebus.

It's the kids fault?

Let me ask you, if your baby Lost limbs or was killed, with state of the art weapons...would you be ever be slightly so peeved?

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524606#Comment_121524606

Irish sympathy for Palestinians is misguided because it was Palestinians (Hamas members are Palestinians after all) that started the current war (or current round of the ongoing conflict if you prefer).

Yes, you can say that “ordinary decent” Palestinians are suffering but that is a direct consequence of Palestinians starting the current war - just as “ordinary decent” Germans suffered severely in the 40s as a result of their country’s initial actions.

Unless people want Ireland to retrospectively condemn the Allied nations for their failure to call a unilateral ceasefire during WWII, which would have left the Nazis in situ in Germany, then people need to accept that Ireland is being very one sided in our approach to this war.

Would there be this much condemnation from Ireland if it were the US that was responding to a direct attack on its citizens? Of course not, as we saw post 9/11 in the cases of Afghanistan, Iraq etc. - and the difference in attitudes is a clear case of double standards, and probably one of anti-semitism.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524908#Comment_121524908

"Ordinary decent"...explain please. Ate you saying all individuals are terrorists. Own your post

Don't use antisemitic.

Kinda like anti civilian bombs at this stage?

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524916#Comment_121524916

2%! Only. Your post is a pisstake.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524208#Comment_121524208

Wow, comparing Israel to the Khmer Rouge, when the latter slaughtered millions for literally no reason whatsoever, and had nothing to do with any external threat. Comparing that to a country that has been fighting against mortal enemies since the day it was founded, is absolutely insane.

And yes, you're right. I've never been to Israel, but everything I know about it indicates that it would be absolutely awesome. Yes, the desert heat and the potential need to run to a bomb shelter at any time would be a bit of a downer, but if I wanted to visit part of the holy land or had some scientific or technological business with an Israeli company or university, I would go in a heartbeat.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524254#Comment_121524254

Do you you think Israeli hostages have a better chance of surviving if there’s a ceasefire?

a) because previous ceasefires we saw hostages being released

b) if no ceasefire Israeli hostages maybe killed by the IDF.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524979#Comment_121524979

Sigh. Silly question. You left out (c) Israeli hostages may be killed by Hamas.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524606#Comment_121524606

Sympathy for innocent victims is never misguided and of course I wasn't trying to say that it is.

Sympathy for the Palestinian cause is the one that is misguided, simply because it means siding with a terrorist organisation. It's also misguided from the perspective of siding with the ones who are historically the invaders and the oppressors.

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524211#Comment_121524211

It’s not on the UN news page dedicated to the Israel/ Gaza conflict

https://www.un.org/en/situation-in-occupied-palestine-and-israel

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524272#Comment_121524272

I look at the actual UN page dedicated to the Israel Gaza conflict where I don’t see it mentioned

https://www.un.org/en/situation-in-occupied-palestine-and-israel

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525132#Comment_121525132

They aren't "worse than pol pot". Stop being ridiculous.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525168#Comment_121525168

You are likely to be told he only said somebody else described them in those terms.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525132#Comment_121525132

"Can you maybe give some insight into why you support these psychopaths?

Family in Israel?

Friends with Israeli's?

Work for an Israeli company?"

Well, first of all, they aren't psychopaths. Replace "Israel/Israeli" with "Jew/Jewish people". Not a good look.

You said that people who raped, burned, tortured and murdered innocent people were only a 4/10 on your evil scale. But the Jews who defend themselves or even just exist are even worse than that. Says it all. You're not worth any more responses.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524746#Comment_121524746

They have been warning people to leave before an attack since some years before the "roof knocking" technique, though previously they usually targeted a single building, so dropping leaflets over a whole neighbourhood would create unnecessary panic.

The point being that the IDF have been warning civilians for years, using the most effective techniques for each situation, to avoid civilian casualties as far as possible. Which makes the claim that they ever only did it once as a media op complete lies.

I mean, you can keep lying, but that's on you.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525378#Comment_121525378

the IDF only gave a warning once for propaganda purpose3s and this has been shown by all organisations monitoring the situations everytime israel goes on a genocidal rampage.

the so-called roof knocking is just a name given to dropping high explosive charges designed for more narrow areas but designed for maximum kill, which they then lie and claim otherwise.

in short, israel lie about everything and anything and every claim they make is disproven quite quickly.

a genocidal, racist, apartheid, cleansist, colonist state.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525078#Comment_121525078

You said it was Hamas propaganda. It's not.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524482#Comment_121524482

Well of course it's an ideology, but I assume the Israelis decided that fear of further attacks like Oct 7th would be so disastrous that they would make large parts of southern Israel uninhabitable, including farms which are needed for food. That would certainly be my conclusion anyway, if I lived there.

So they feel that the urgency is to remove Hamas as a military force now, and that they can worry about hypothetical future Hamas' after the present military force has been dealt with.

The other problem they had is that if they'd allowed Hamas to get away with this attack, it would have been presented as a great success by Hamas compared to anything that Fatah or any other Palestinian organisation managed, and that would have recruited MORE people into Hamas' ranks, as well as likely pushing Fatah to doing the same thing.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525410#Comment_121525410

You keep saying this, but you've given no evidence of it.

I've provided links talking about previous times when the IDF have warned civilians before attacking a military target in the area.

So unless you can prove that I'm wrong and you're right, I'm going to consider that you've lost this argument and leave you to screaming your lies into the void.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525410#Comment_121525410

"the IDF only gave a warning once for propaganda purpose3s..."

Wrong, but it's EOTR. Truth means nothing.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210520-roof-knocking-israel-warning-system-under-scrutiny-in-gaza-conflict

Just one of many sites (not particularly from the Israeli side) documenting roof knocking, this one from events in 2014

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525378#Comment_121525378

'roof knocking' was abandoned very early on. Instead they have been dropping 2000lb bombs on a densely populated city. Of all the ordnance they could have dropped, they dropped the largest ones in their arsenal. It's been mentioned it's the highest density bombing since Vietnam.... And remember this is in one of the most densely populated places in the world.

Some estimates are 90% of those dropped in the first week were 2000lb, and overall half were dumb bombs.

The IDF have also bombed areas where they told civilians to move to for 'safety'

That is a far cry from doing what's required under international law to minimize civilian casualties. Only recently the IDF announced they will start to target Hamas leaders now. Maybe they should have been the first target?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525410#Comment_121525410

Holy crap. I'm going to repeat my question to those who have made the "colonialism" claim against Israel writ large.

How do you define the Metropole - Colony relationship? An empire that has colonies, by definition, has a Metropolitan State - Colony relationship. That is, the people of the colony have and identify with a core homeland.

So if Israel writ large is a colony, where is the Jewish Metropole? What Jewish empire extended into Israel? Or is part of Israel a legitimate territory and part of it a colonial venture?

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525132#Comment_121525132

Just to clarify, you want to call out people and make them give their justification for being family, friends or employees of "Israel", aka "Jews". This after denying the rape, murder and torture which was literally documented and live streamed by hamas. And you think you're the good guy? Lol. Keep spiralling 👍

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525037#Comment_121525037

Sigh… the initial question was surrounding Israel. I was answering from Israel perspective only. But Hamas may kill hostages. However there isn’t any evidence yet of them killing them since Oct 7th. There is evidence of Israel killing its own people

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525468#Comment_121525468

Before answering, how do you define the settlements in the West Bank?

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525547#Comment_121525547

Yes, there is the video they released of a tortured hostage with his eyes gouged out and badly beaten who died, which they then claimed was due to Israel. Not to mention the many young women who they refuse to release, and the baby they "lost" and have since said has died. Yes, I'm sure they are treating them very well indeed🙄

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525547#Comment_121525547

There was 2 hostages found near a hospital in Gaza dead with bullet wounds. But we haven't heard anything since about them.

But since Oct 7th, and I'm open to be corrected, Hamas have been or claimed responsibility for 3 murders of Israel's in Jerusalem, the IDF have killed 1 Israeli in Jerusalem and 3 Israeli hostages in Gaza. So based on that, it's hard to see Israel being under imminent threat from Hamas.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525421#Comment_121525421

I have no issue with the way Israel view the abhorrent attack of Oct 7th (and previous attacks of course) and to take action to secure Israelis. And yes, I totally agree that if Israel did nothing (or very little) it would have been propaganda gold for Hamas.

The issue I have is the way Israel they are going about it to the detriment of so many innocent civilians. Proportionality is what is required.

The world is watching and the world is reacting. And as far I can see, most people see this campaign as just plain wrong. This campaign will likely drive more Palestinians into the Hamas recruiter's office.

And around and around we go...

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525492#Comment_121525492

Why do you use the phrase "Israel, aka Jews"?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525431#Comment_121525431

the links themselves prove you wrong as they are essentially hasbara propaganda.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525610#Comment_121525610

Because it seemed to me thats what that poster meant and that they skirt around it by saying Israel. I'm basing this deduction on pages and pages of their posts, in which they steadily have revealed their support for Hamas, but of course, I could be wrong

"Can you maybe give some insight into why you support these psychopaths?

Family in Israel?

Friends with Israeli's?

Work for an Israeli company?"

I mean honestly, this rhetoric is disturbing