Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525601#Comment_121525601

The reason Israel are killing so many civilians is because Hamas has been preparing for just such an event (which they deliberately provoked) by ensuring that civilians in Gaza are human shields for Hamas' soldiers. They've deliberately made it impossible for Israel to respond militarily without killing Palestinians.

Hamas even told a reporter that they wouldn't let civilians shelter in the tunnels, because those were for Hamas, not for civilians, and that the safety of civilians was not their problem. Even though they run the health centre, the education system and the justice system, being the actual government of Gaza.

That makes Hamas responsible for those deaths, more than Israel.

As for proportionality (apart from the fact that you're again using it in a general sense, not the legal sense in which it applies to military operations under international law) could you explain what would have been, in your view, a "proportional" attack for Israel to make in response to the Oct 7th attacks? Kidnap and murder some Palestinian children? Rape a few Palestinian women? Murder the equivalent number of entirely random Palestinians?

Or launch a military attack to try to remove Hamas from power, despite knowing that this will lead to many civilian deaths because Hamas is using them as human shields?

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525600#Comment_121525600

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525577#Comment_121525577

I’m not say they treated them well. Don’t put words in my mouth. I said I haven’t seen Hamas being responsible for deaths in Israeli borders. Thanks to @Wolf359f i did just read that. However please provide reliable news sources like Reuters/bbc for your claims as I haven’t seen that.

as an aside, do you not think the method in which they shot three of their own is indicate of how they treat Palestinian civilians? Or do you think that’s ok?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525644#Comment_121525644

LOL.

The Independent, the Telegraph and various other links cited in the Wikipedia article (did you even read it?) are all Hasbara propaganda are they?

Whereas your statements, backed up bu, err, nothing, are not propaganda??

Just, LOL again.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524875#Comment_121524875

Let me ask you.

If your unborn child was cut from your wife's womb and shot in the head, while your wife watched. Then she was shot in the head. What would you do?

If your sister was gangraped by 8 men and then shot in the head while one of these scumbags were still inside her, then continued to rape her while she was dying. What would you do?

Israel strikes targets from the air. Hamas ensure women and children are in and around these targets.

Hamas shoot women in the head while they're filthy penis is still inside them.

It is completely different.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525675#Comment_121525675

It shows that young men on the ground in a warzone in which many of their comrades have already been killed are likely to overreact when faced with three young men who might or might not be Israeli.

It was in a zone from which civilians had all fled - they hadn't seen any at all there for days, and while obviously they got it wrong, I don't think it shows anything much other than how easy armchair strategising is compared to being on the ground with your own life in play.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524627#Comment_121524627

Murdered. By Hamas' actions.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524618#Comment_121524618

Absolutely I am.

The world over agree Hamas need eradicating.

The only country with the cajones to do it is Israel.

Took an international coalition to remove ISIS. Israel are doing this alone.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524612#Comment_121524612

That was part of a firefight where mistakes can and do happen.

I don't recall any other country calling people in close vicinity to where they're going to strike and informing them of impending strike and asking them to leave the area.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525702#Comment_121525702

That’s complete BS. But also indicative of your bias. There weren’t wearing tops. Waving a white flag, shouting in Hebrew. The IDF are trigger happy and appears to believe that principles of distinction don’t apply to them.

what about the sniper murdering a woman leaving a church to go to the bathroom. There is plenty evidence even if you don’t want to admit it

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525723#Comment_121525723

And then bomb the area they are going to.

I mean in most wars people aren’t confined to the space of Gaza either. Agree?

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525701#Comment_121525701

What would I do. If you, my neighbour did all those things and lived in a neighbouring estate. Do I then have the right to annihilate that estate? No. Hamas does not equal all Palestinians civilians whether you like it or not.

also, with all due respect, Israeli forces and settlers have raped and murdered Palestinians. Innocent civilians. Israel have proven themselves time and time again to be capable of horrendous acts.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525852#Comment_121525852

And ex-IDF man was telling Owen Jones recently that their instructions were to regard practically everyone in a combat zone in Gaza as an enemy combatant and opening fire on anyone behaving even slightly suspiciously is absolutely fine and there will be no sanctions.

They are essentially a bunch of criminals and thugs in uniform, but their commanding officers are okay with the criminality and even encourage it. We're talking Bloody Sunday multiplied by a thousand.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525600#Comment_121525600

So, ignoring the rocket launches that go on daily?

Not under imminent threat. Get up the yard with that. Hamas are an existential threat to Israel, as long as they launch rockets daily, and have threatened to repeat October7th until Israel is Judenfrei.

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525414#Comment_121525414

OK, It's propaganda on behalf of Hamas by their people in UN or media organisations!

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525701#Comment_121525701

I honestly believe, from your post, you need to talk to somebody.

What you said is without doubt a fantasy which only yourself can own.

Why did you bring my sister into it?

Children are being murdered in their thousands. You seem happy with it. Explain why please?

Filthy penis. Feck sake.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525896#Comment_121525896

These rockets are not an imminent threat to Israel. How many thousands of rockets fired from Gaza since Oct 7 and how many Israeli's dead as a result of them?

Do you honestly believe that Hamas will ever get 2k of them across the border into Israel like they done on Oct 7?

When I say imminent threat, I mean if Israel stop indiscriminately bombing for a day, then Hamas would be able to pour over the border and have another Oct 7. Their rockets will all of a sudden become accurate and start killing Israeli's.

There's only 1 group of people under imminent threat..... Civilians in Gaza. There's only 1 group dieing by the hundreds every day.... Civilians in Gaza. You really are thinking in the IDF mindset. Some child throws a stone at the border so the sniper kills them. Imminent threat right?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525937#Comment_121525937

"These rockets are not an imminent threat to Israel. How many thousands of rockets fired from Gaza since Oct 7 and how many Israeli's dead as a result of them?"

Do I detect a note of disappointment? They're launching rockets. Multiple times/day. Thousands. But, that doesn't meet your definition of 'imminent' because the rockets haven't killed anyone yet.

If Israel stops bombing without reciprocal action from Hamas, what do you think they'll do? Suddenly make efforts at humanitarian relief? Surrender their leaders?

No, they'll at least continue to launch rockets and probably a few of the crazier ones will want to counterattack.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525921#Comment_121525921

No fantasy. This is the true events that innocent civilians went through in Israel.

Hard to fathom isn't it. I know.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524199#Comment_121524199

By that logic, the IDF are committing war crimes on a much larger scale.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525992#Comment_121525992

So your pro murdering innocents?

What happened on the 7th was terrorism.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525862#Comment_121525862

Israel have done nothing of the sort.

What people fail to understand, is there is no way of getting to Hamas to hold them to account, because they hide behind and among the their own civilians.

It really is not that difficult to understand.

You don't allow October 7th to go without response. Instead of berating Israel, people really need to look at the real culprits.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525858#Comment_121525858

That's a question for neighbouring Arab states my friend.

Israel is doing what it needs to do to protect its civilians.

Innocent Muslims within Gaza have been offered no shelter by neighboring Arab states.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525858#Comment_121525858

Egypt has been preventing them from leaving for years. Israel only stops them from coming into Israel, which is understandable, given the attacks that Palestinians have launched on Israelis.

But nobody is accusing Egypt of imprisoning Gazans. Just the Jews. As usual.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526007#Comment_121526007

Not sure what you're reading.

Terrorism needs to be eradicated. Israel are doing that.

What's the issue?

Killing in Gaza? How does Israel eradicate Hamas? Force. What does Hamas do to prevent that. Use their own as shields.

What's the answer? There is no 'nice' answer.

It's what you rightly called terrorism. And any country that suffers an act of terror similar to October 7th would do what Israel are doing.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526004#Comment_121526004

Only if you don't understand the difference between a legitimate military aim, versus killing civilians for ethnic reasons.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525954#Comment_121525954

The only disappointment I have is Israel acting like a terrorist state, acting more like Russia etc... and causing massive loss of life in Gaza.

If Israel stop indiscriminate bombing, they won't face any extra threat from Hamas and civilian lives will be saved. Hamas are a terrorist group, they don't have a mass of armed vehicles or planes ready to launch attacks on Israel as soon as Israel let their guard down. The crazier ones you mention won't get within sight of the border before been taken out.

This defense people use, of Israel being under imminent threat is just a ridiculous excuse to defend the indefensible, massive loss of human life through indiscriminate bombing of a city under siege.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524515#Comment_121524515

Would you go away out of that. Israel murdered a lot of their own people on October 7th. Indiscriminately shelling kibbutz and shooting people on sight.

They indiscriminately murdered 3 Israeli hostages who were surrendering to them, half naked and holding up white flags.

They indiscriminately murdered an off duty cop who’d shot a knife attacker.

They indiscriminately murdered 11 men in front of their families and then threw grenades into a room containing the women and children.

Israel is a terrorist state.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524515#Comment_121524515

Would you go away out of that. Israel murdered a lot of their own people on October 7th. Indiscriminately shelling kibbutz and shooting people on sight.

They indiscriminately murdered 3 Israeli hostages who were surrendering to them, half naked and holding up white flags.

They indiscriminately murdered an off duty cop who’d shot a knife attacker.

They indiscriminately murdered 11 men in front of their families and then threw grenades into a room containing the women and children.

Israel is a terrorist state.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525862#Comment_121525862

That's because there's a police force that you are supposed to report those crimes to and a justice system that will punish the attackers. No equivalent method for stopping the violence exists when your neighbours actually run the estate and no police are allowed near it.

That's the situation Israel is in - if they allow Hamas to do this with impunity, Hamas will do it again and again until Israel no longer exists. That's what Hamas themselves have promised to do - funny how people will believe all their other claims, but not that one.

Or else they're actually grand with the idea of destroying Israel. But are not antisemitic of course. Never.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525852#Comment_121525852

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525896#Comment_121525896

A militia with 25,000 members without an airforce or navy is not an existential threat to one of the most powerful armies in the world. They are a threat that needs to be dealt with , but they are not an existential threat to the Israeli state as things stand. Are we going to go down the road of hypothetical to justify your statement. I will indulge you, if Hamas were a comparative force to the IDF they would most certainly be an existential threat, but they are not now and likely never will be.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526032#Comment_121526032

So your pro murdering of innocent Palestinian children. Gotcha.

How does Israel eradicate hamas...genocide is grand. Fill your boots.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526059#Comment_121526059

They aren't an existential threat to the IDF. They are an existential threat to Israel. Not the same thing - that's far worse.

A large section of southern Israel is currently empty of its inhabitants - that means no farming, as well as the internally displaced people. But I don't see any sad ads on TV this christmas about all the refugee Israeli children, even though there are thousands of them.

If the Gaza envelope remains too dangerous for civilian inhabitants, that's an existential threat to the whole country.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526081#Comment_121526081

If those Israeli child refugees were being bombed and dying in their thousands, then yes, you would see that on TV adverts. You would even have people marching on the streets in western capitals demanding a ceasefire to save those innocent lives.

spakman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526032#Comment_121526032

So if the British army responded to an IRA bomb, by wiping out all Catholics in Northern Ireland, it would have been appropriate? The only option?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526090#Comment_121526090

Not true though - right after the Oct 7th attacks, there were marches in the west for Palestine, before Israel had responded at all. And nothing for the Israeli children who were the victims of the Oct 7th attack.

So your claim that "there would have been" is pure speculation, not borne out by what actually did happen.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526081#Comment_121526081

Let's not minimise the threat to the farming as part of an existential threat to Israel. No farming, no food. Bad.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-war-hamas-militants-farms-e112d5e3e6739a030db5c788dfe6e48e

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526105#Comment_121526105

But remember, it's Israel's obligation to co-exist with Hamas and not really respond to repeated and continuous acts of war by Gaza's government.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526105#Comment_121526105

No electricity, water or healthcare, bad.

Plus no homes, death, dismembered limbs of innocents...guess what...bad.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526132#Comment_121526132

And remember, Hamas aren't an existential threat to Israel.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526142#Comment_121526142

Those horrible WW2 Allies attacking the poor Germans in Berlin, eh? Evil. FFS

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526081#Comment_121526081

Existential threat to Israel is hugely overstating the issue : 'a threat' would be much nearer the mark.

Hamas had one to two years to prepare for the October 7th massacre and still only managed to kill just over 1k people out of a population of 7m Israeli Jews.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526132#Comment_121526132

Are you just creating strawmans so you can win arguments? 153 countries voted for last UN ceasefire resolution in Gaza because they are against Israels current conduct of the war and the treatment of civilians not because they are against Israels right to defend themselves or support Hamas.

Do you support the current operation even if it is resulting in such a civilian bodycount? Would any death toll make you consider not supporting the operation anymore?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526166#Comment_121526166

They don't have to kill them all to destroy the state - they just have to disrupt life as described above: make education impossible for children in those areas, make farming impossible etc.

Israel is a small country - if this sort of attack goes unpunished, then Hezbollah in Lebanon to the north will start doing the same thing, and Fatah in the West Bank. No part of Israel would then be safe for unarmed civilians, because it would all be easily reachable by some terror group or another.

It's really that simple - it's an existential threat to the whole country.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526162#Comment_121526162

Oh my. You did go there.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526181#Comment_121526181

Still waiting for you to make an actual point.

I'm sure if you think really really hard, you can do it.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526099#Comment_121526099

Israel responded to the attacks and was bombing Gaza within hours of the attacks. There has been marches in support of Israel across the west. You may even remember a lot of western buildings being lit up in blue and white in solidarity with Israel. Unfortunately very soon after as the innocent deaths mounted in Gaza, people in the west were horrified with the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza and support diminished for Israel.

Western populations have marched calling for peace and support of Ukraine, Iraq, Palestine, Syria & Iraq. So it's not pure speculation if the situation was reversed that they wouldn't also be marching for peace and support for Israel.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526170#Comment_121526170

I think Israel should do whatever they have to do when dealing with mortal enemies. Like Hamas.

The time to be calling for a ceasefire was BEFORE the 7th of October. Now it's Israel's turn to hit back.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526081#Comment_121526081

If to eradicate Hamas the Israel operation would need to take the lives of say 1/3 of Gazas population would that be a price worth paying to you? If not, do you have a civilian death total that would be too high for you to continue to support the current Israeli operation?

ollkiller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525723#Comment_121525723

Ya right lad. If your army is shooting first and asking questions later it's not a mistake. Its barbarism. You just said in another post your proud of what's happening in Gaza. I wont be engaging with you anymore as your comments excusing the slaughter of children are vile.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526231#Comment_121526231

So what total civilian death toll is acceptable to you? Is there a point at which you would think it was too high, too costly to eradicate Hamas?