Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526957#Comment_121526957

It's not random it's showing you are not supporting the Israeli operation unconditionally. That you have an independent position and don't just regurgitate mindlessly the Israeli government position. It also would put to the bed the idea that you are supporting genocide as at the moment your position as expressed is that the number to be killed is based on whatever it takes to complete the objective (who will even decide that, Israel I suppose) .

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526926#Comment_121526926

60,000 Israelis displaced after the Hamas attacks, mostly to resorts like Red Sea town of Eilat or to the Dead Sea, where the hotels have become refugee camps:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-morbid-routine-displaced-survivors-of-kibbutz-massacre-bury-friends-count-dead/

Entire towns have been emptied, as well as all the kibbutzim that were attacked: everywhere within a 7km range of Gaza. The whole of Sderot, a town of 27, 000 people, has been evacuated. People further than that from Gaza have also had to leave because they are too traumatised to stay, but they have to fund it themselves.

The quote below comes from an article which talks to a woman whose husband was shot by Hamas and bled to death because help didn't come in time, but because they're further than 7km from Gaza, they have no financial help: her brother-in-law is paying for them to stay elsewhere.

'At Abraham Eilat, a popular hostel and budget hotel, 12 families are staying free of charge at the hotel’s expense, says Omer Armoza, who runs the Eilat branch of the Abraham Travel chain of four guesthouses in Israel. After noticing some guests were hungry, the hostel, which usually serves only breakfast, began offering additional meals.

Youth movement activists and staff entertain the children of the evacuees at various hotels. The Eilat municipality and that of Sderot, a city of about 27,000 that has been evacuated, are providing mental healthcare to evacuees.'

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-the-displaced-eilats-charms-are-a-painful-reminder-of-a-life-pierced-by-war/

But because Israel takes care of its own IDPs, there's no talk here about the effects of the attacks on the mental health of Israeli children.

Or maybe it really is because they're Jewish. There's plenty of evidence about generationally-transmitted trauma in other populations, but the Jews are supposed to have got over the Holocaust, and just got on with things. Never mind living under constant threat of rockets for years.

It really is very strange, how little sympathy they get.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526969#Comment_121526969

They're backing down.

They're happy with 2 million + people being killed. They've said it multiple times before.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526939#Comment_121526939

Orientalism. Not sure what the Far East of Asia has anything to do with anything here. Of course the rest of your accusation doesn't make any sense either.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526969#Comment_121526969

Of course there are conditions. You can't for example just murder civilians for giggles like some IDF soldiers were accused of a few pages back. It is possible to fight a total war without genocide, for example like the Allies against Germany and Japan in WWII. One would hope that the same could be done in Gaza, and that the place could have the equivalent of de-Nazification e.g. by an international occupation afterwards.

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526999#Comment_121526999

I suggest that you Google it as you clearly have no idea what it is I am referring to.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526999#Comment_121526999

But again you haven't set any specific conditions in terms of numbers. Even Obama in Syria set a red line that he subsequently dropped, but at least he spelt it out. You say you want to minimise civilian deaths but actually your position is whatever Israel decides is enough civilian deaths is enough for you.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525065#Comment_121525065

Well in this present case both warring factions are guilty, not the Palestinian people as a whole, but that's what is happening.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525707#Comment_121525707

No, murdered by Israeli actions. You cannot deflect that.

gameoverdude

Why hasn't the thread tittle been changed?

igCorcaigh

Watered down UNSC motion passed. What a sick joke. 😔

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525716#Comment_121525716

They are doing zilch alone. Nothing. They have the backing of the US and the UK and weapons supplied by them. In fact the IDF and Israel have nothing to be proud of at all. They are waging a cowardly war on women and children and are absolutely no different to Hamas. Not a hostage freed after nearly 11 weeks?? The IDF are a murderous disaster.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526166#Comment_121526166

For a first attempt, as such it wasn't bad (assuming that a death count was the aim, and Hamas have said that there will be more attacks of a similar nature in the future, so this was trial run, if you like) But I don't think that was the plan. What Hamas planned worked beyond their wildest dreams. Over the years, thousands of missiles have been launched since Israel left Gaza, after Hamas took over, more than 20'000 + missiles up to the now infamous 7th Oct. And a pattern developed, Hamas fired 5 missiles into Israel, and they responded by firing 10 missiles back into Gaza. Nothing out of the ordinary, a few minor headlines word wide, and quickly forgotten. Oct 7th changed all that. Hamas attacked with a brutality that Israel had to respond to with almost full-scale war. I say "almost" because had Israel gone full scale, little or any of Gaza would now be left standing. And so Hamas got their wish, they buried themselves (not the big bosses of Hamas though, they are far removed from Gaza) within the civilian population of Gaza, and when Israel attacked, many thousands of Palestinians were killed (and still ongoing) and of course the worldwide condemnation of Israel that followed. This was the Hamas plan all along and it worked beautifully.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527042#Comment_121527042

I don't pretend to be qualified enough to just throw out some random number. But I don't see why Israel should not have, for example, the same latitude as the Allies did in WWII, or any other total war in history where one side was clearly in the right.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527009#Comment_121527009

Yes, I did so and am still not sure what you're on about. I did find a Wikipedia article about the term and you appear to be using the term in a "critical" sense, which seems to stem from radical Marxist and Postmodernist nonsense.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527149#Comment_121527149

But you do. So, genocide? All good?

I think my third time asking.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525852#Comment_121525852

Trigger-happy murderers. Cowards too.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527149#Comment_121527149

If you want to justify total war, justify it. That is your position to take. Not sure why you even referring to past conflicts, you are setting no limits on Israel killing civilians now, not the Allies then.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527169#Comment_121527169

Well the Allies didn't commit genocide as countries like Germany and Japan still exist, and they mainly focused on military targets. And they adhered to laws like taking prisoners of war and generally didn't just randomly kill people for no military reason. They used enough force to destroy the Nazi and Imperial Japanese regimes. Once the war was over, they de-radicalised the populations and helped rebuild. I consider that to be a general template for how Israel should go after Hamas, with the international community perhaps coming in to help after the fighting is over.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527191#Comment_121527191

That is quite a general template. Given hamas seem to have military targets under civilian infrastructure and no factories and as such the idf , are facing very different situation to ww2. I would hope that the WW2 Allies had an idea of the number of civilians they were willing to accept on the enemy side to get the objective done because you don't seem to have any number in mind, no limit for how many civilians in Gaza must be sacrificed until the israels can declare victory.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526231#Comment_121526231

All they are doing is murdering women and children, bombing hospitals, medical staff, journalists and even their own. Cowardly acts.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526769#Comment_121526769

Why haven't IDF spokesman been asked to verify this? I've seen loads of interviews with IDF spokesman during this campaign in Gaza, the question was never asked.

rolling boh

If the situation wasn't so serious the much worked on resolution just issued is a complete waste of time and will change nothing .

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527261#Comment_121527261

It seems to be generally accepted, especially by the US, who supply the bombs and rockets Israel are using. When the US supply (I assume Israel tells the US what they need and it's not just pot luck) 15,000 dumb bombs and only request 3000 JDAM kits to convert them to smart bombs, you can kinda see where the focus is for Israel and it's not on precision strikes.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527227#Comment_121527227

For the greater good.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527220#Comment_121527220

I'm sure the WWII Allies did have good estimates of how many people would die with various courses of action, because their generals, military intelligence services, and political leadership (Churchill, Roosevelt etc.) would have discussed these things in various meetings before decisions were made at very high levels.

I don't have any of that, being a random civilian in a country thousands of miles away. That's why I'm not qualified to just start throwing numbers around and have stuck to general principles.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527290#Comment_121527290

Your principle though is the number of death of civilians is not high enough now to be against operation. Also you have no limit in mind of how many people should be killed up to all of Gaza for when you would stop supporting the operation.

DarkJager21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527283#Comment_121527283

All for nought, Israel is a pariah now.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527497#Comment_121527497

Not at all. US is there

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527313#Comment_121527313

Because I'm not qualified to determine specific numbers. And I'm not familiar with any total war scenario in history between mortal enemies where one side (and one side only) was held to a standard of "if civilian casualties reach X you have to stop and learn to co-exist with the enemy that wants you dead."

But by all means, if you have such a number where Israel should be forced to co-exist with savage rapist murders bent on their complete annihilation, please feel free to share it.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527516#Comment_121527516

My acceptable number of innocent civilians to be killed has been reached now. You obviously have more you can stomach as long as they are Gazan. Hamas is bent on annihilation I agree but that you can't even agree on any total number yourself for Gazans to be killed suggesting that annihilation is not something you are against either.

Beta Ray Bill

But by all means, if you have such a number where Israel should be forced to co-exist with savage rapist murders bent on their complete annihilation, please feel free to share it.

This is changing in 2020, Moroco, UAE, Bahrain and Sudan all recognised Israel and normalised relations. The US wants Saudi Arabia and Israel to normalise relations, but the Hamas attack effectively ruined that, and Israel has kinda shot itself in the foot losing a potential ally that's one of the most powerful in the region.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527531#Comment_121527531

Well, historical precedent and AFAIK international law is clear - a belligerent has the right to target anything being used by an enemy for military purposes.

But thanks for clarifying that you hold the Jews to a different standard to literally everyone else in the same position throughout history. Fortunately, for example the Allies didn't hold back on the Nazis for fear of killing "too many" Germans, the same being arbitrarily determined.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527531#Comment_121527531

My number is whatever it has to reach until

1. Hamas returns all the hostages
2. Hamas stops launching rockets
3. Hamas' leaders are handed over to the ICC.

It's up to Hamas to determine whether this means annihilation.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527556#Comment_121527556

I hold the Israelis, (not all Jews!) to the same standard as any modern state. But at least I hold a position. Your position seems to be wait for the Israeli government to decide they have killed too many civilians and then stop and then you will agree.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527560#Comment_121527560

So in theory you support annihilation/ genocide. So your morals are similar to Hamas.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527564#Comment_121527564

My position is the same as anyone who supported any other belligerent in any other total war in history. They're entitled to complete their objective and to target anything being used by the enemy military.

And considering that a near-majority of the worlds Jews live in Israel and the Disputed Territories, yes, by definition your view of Israel is at least partially your view on the Jews.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527569#Comment_121527569

Can you tell me if Hamas understands anything else? They've initiated an aggressive war; how do you make them stop? Pelt them with rose petals?

ED E

If we want to save further Gazan casualties the most direct solution is the US Navy flattening several Iranian cities. Lots of other civs will die but it mostly won't be Palestinians. Even the arms that Hamas pretend to DIY are actually premade by Iran for them. Houthis are the same. Eventually someone has to tackle the IRGC.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527593#Comment_121527593

My position is the same for any modern state. Your position of support for Israels position I presume would be the same if they were not Jewish? So it is not driving force for my position. But I guess your position is still that the whole population is Gaza may be killed if that is necessary to complete the objective.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527531#Comment_121527531

How can anyone have an ' acceptable number of innocent civilians to be killed'

there is no acceptable number. You can't possibly have a number, say 5000, & anything above that is unacceptable, so those 5000 are acceptable?!

innocent civilians die in war.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527606#Comment_121527606

I would suggest that if you want to keep calling Hamas evil, which they are, you should not be supporting the idea of annihilation by the Israelis of Gazans under any circumstances.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527624#Comment_121527624

I think posters that support your position don't share this opinion as some have suggested total annihilation if that is what it takes to complete the objective. The number of acceptable innocent deaths must keep rising in your mind, if you keep supporting this operation. If you are unwilling to identify a total number of acceptable civilians then why not kill them all now?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527639#Comment_121527639

There is no acceptable number, how can you decide that it's grand to kill a certain amount of civilians, but once you kill over some arbitrary number, that's not acceptable?

Innocent people are killed in wars, wars don't stop because a number of deaths has been reached.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527669#Comment_121527669

That is a dangerous position to take as it could lead to supporting genocide. Is your position then that the operation should only cease when the Israeli government proclaims its objectives complete? You are totally relying on the goodwill of this Israeli government to not wipe out the Gazans then. Talk about blind support.

tayto lover

Nice to hear how diplomats from another country view how Israel treats the Palestinians --

Bing Videos

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527620#Comment_121527620

My position is clear and universal: if any other country were attacked in the same manner as Israel was by Gaza under similar circumstances, I'd support the victim in going to a total war stance against their attacker. F*** Around and Find Out.

It's your position that is incoherent because you are OK with the Allies in WWII having killed civilians extensively in Germany and Japan as part of ending regimes such as Nazi Germany. By your standard, the Allies should have stopped defending themselves as soon as Axis civilian casualties reached some arbitrary number.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527696#Comment_121527696

This is not world war 2. Own up to you position now. You are not setting a limit on the amount of civilian casualties you are comfortable with being killed because you don't want to ever reach a stage where you would have to disagree with the Israeli governments actions. All your talk of minimising civilians casualties is hollow if you can't even proclaim that if a million Gazans died you would be against this operation

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527560#Comment_121527560

Washing your hands of the Israeli War on Children. Average age of the children being murdered is 5 years. Shame on you.

DarkJager21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527501#Comment_121527501

Slowly getting pulled down the shitter along with them, what Israel is doing is inexcusable and it doesn't matter who is backing them, US boxing themselves in to a corner with support.

This ‘Give me a number of acceptable deaths’ question is right up there with the question ‘Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or No’ there are no answers that do not paint someone in a bad light.

It is a question asked in bad faith.

Would ye ever give it up and move the discussion on.

Pages of tripe to wade through on the thread recently.

blackcard

Hamas are evil and what they have done is to be condemned. They killed unarmed civilians and that is deplorable

It seems to be the position of some here that unlimited killing of unarmed civilians can continue until the IDF or the Israeli war cabinet decide they have met their objectives. No number is too high. Truly shocking