Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Ignacius

The racism from Jews is so sad.

saying they are breeding like a rabbit farm. Calling them animals. The Zionists have lost their collective minds. They are a danger to the world.

Somebody said Israel was always defensive. How is it defensive to illegally seize the land of other breaking international law?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528558#Comment_121528558

I said that and I'm not Jewish. It's not racism to say a people are breeding like rabbits. But you like to play the victim.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528570#Comment_121528570

It's kind of a weird thing to say, when Israel's population has consistently grown at a similar, but slightly faster, rate to Palestines over the past 30 years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528577#Comment_121528577

The ultra orthotdox Jews are reproducing like rabbits, but they contribute very little to the economy. The women are not well educated, they are expcted to have a traditional life, marry early and have alot of children. They live off the government. The liberal Jews who contribute alot to the economy are on the decline. We are supporting Palestines traditional way of life by all the aid we are sending, otherwise they would need to develop an economy and have friendly relations with their neighbours so they can trade with them.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528583#Comment_121528583

Perhaps actually allowing them to trade, by removing the extremely stringent and prohibitive regulations and roadblocks by air land and sea that have been imposed by Israel for decades, would have been a good step in that case.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527911#Comment_121527911

It's unidirectional? Hamas aren't defending themselves? They've stopped aggressively launching rockets? That'd stop the fighting for sure. Try again.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527934#Comment_121527934

Uhh, Israel are killing Hamas fighters. Not sure where you get this delusion. Plus imprisoning them (remember the hue and cry about the photos of the stripped prisoners?)

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527875#Comment_121527875

Actually it's nothing like the Vietnam war. For one thing, the VC were not the government of South Vietnam. They were an actual irregular force. Hamas relationship with Gaza is closer to that of the Nazis to Germany, or other "traditional" wars. I.E. they are government forces.

Also, none of the Vietnamese were a mortal enemy of the US, the Vietnamese Communists were clear that once the US left, that was the end of it. Also Vietnam was nowhere near the US on the map. The opposite is true in Gaza, Israel's problems with Gaza began when they left and Hamas have made it clear that their quarrel is a fight to the death.

This conflict is the exact opposite of the US-Vietnam War in every conceivable respect.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527042#Comment_121527042

You say "Even Obama in Syria" as though setting conditions like that were the reasonable thing to do and that even the cruel warlord Obama did that.

That's a complete misrepresentation both of Obama and of that particular action, which was said at the time by military analysts to be a mistake, because it was such a hostage to fortune, and which of course - as predicted by anyone who had a clue - to be untenable. Far from being a warlord, Obama showed up his own (and his army's) weaknesses there. Israel would be badly advised to copy him.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527220#Comment_121527220

Do you have any evidence that the Allies had some sort of "idea of the number of civilians they were willing to accept" before they felt they'd have to ceasefire, thereby letting the Nazis win??

I've never heard of any such calculation existing.

In fact I know that in occupied France, where the Nazi occupiers prioritised their solders' safety over that of the civilians (rather like Hamas in Gaza, except Hamas are supposed to be on the same side as Gazans) the death rates from the Allied bombing raids over cities like Brest, Lorient or Toulon were far higher per capita than London. IOW they were bombing people they were also fighting to free - and nobody protested there that there were too many deaths. Neither before nor after.

So I think you're just making that up.

nacho libre

According to the Times of Israel 8,000 Hamas fighters have been killed since the start of the war.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527564#Comment_121527564

Clearly you don't though. What have you had to say about (for instance) Saudi Arabia killing Yemenis? Or deaths in Sudan/Southern Sudan? Thousands dead - how many civilians were acceptable to you there? Have you even posted about any of that, pre Oct 7th?

You're also just making stuff up about previous wars having had a theoretical "acceptable" number of dead civilians, so as to hold the Jews to a standard that nobody else is held to.

LuckyLloyd

NY Times piece with conclusive evidence of savage and indiscriminate use of 2000lbs bombs by Israel in densely populated areas of South Gaza that it had encouraged civilians to flee to.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bomb-investigation.html

I’m sure we’ll now be told that the NYT is also an opponent of Israel, even though it has been running constant Oct 7th narratives for the past 10 weeks.

Israel’s behaviour is not in keeping with Western values and they should not be entitled to a blank cheque of support.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528723#Comment_121528723

The "hue and cry" as you call it was around the fact that not all of those humiliated men were Hamas combatants.

Beasty

gameoverdude threadbanned

dmcdona

"In a New York Times public opinion survey this week, only 33% of registered American voters approved of the president's handling of the Israel-Palestinian conflict. A plurality, 44% to 39%, said Israel should end its military campaign."

full article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67788359

nacho libre

I have pointed out how those concerned with double tap bombings in Syria were largely silent about Saudi Arabia doing the same thing. This wasn't just left wing people doing it but also people on the right. Was it because of who was arming the Saudis? it seems to me some people are keen to point out the double standards they see in the left , but not of people on the right. Is that due to bias?

I suspect it is because how else are they able to laud a man like Kissinger while claiming to be disgusted by the deaths of civilians- only if they are killed in the name of the wrong ideology it seems

the reality is nearly everyone is guilty of double standards when it comes to world affairs - look at the Indonesian Government, what right have they to lecture anyone about killing civilians and Genoicide. The Russians and so on...

Does this then justify a country, you view as liberal and pro western in its outlook , having to be told by its main backer to do much better in safeguarding the lives of civilians in Gaza. The look over there excuse is a poor one and rather childish. I don't subscribe to the view that the IDF is actually committing genocide in Gaza, but certainly they have shown a reckless disregard for the lives of civilians in Gaza. You fall back on the its all Hamas fault to absolve the Israeli Government of any blame. I disagree, the harsh reality is both the likes of Bibi and Hamas have little concern for Palestinian civilians. Bibi was happy enough to prop Hamas up until it backfired on him. If there is any justice he will see the inside of a prison cell at some stage, but a deal will probably be done whereby he gets immunity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529109#Comment_121529109

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529272#Comment_121529272

I'm not sure what you mean. It's not about "look over there", it's about pointing out double standards. And they are double standards, and only apply to Jews. Make of that what you will.

I agree by the way about Netanyahu - way before the Hamas attacks I was hoping he'd end up in prison. Not just for his rejection of the two-state solution but also that.

But Hamas are propping him up too. In fact it looks to me like Hamas prefer having someone like him in power than someone who actually wants peace.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529156#Comment_121529156

Yes, but it reinforces my point that Hamas are indeed being attacked by the IDF. The OP I was responding to, said the IDF is just attacking civilians.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529362#Comment_121529362

I think it's more complicated than that. Many observers are of the opinion that the IDF are also quite deliberately attacking the Gazan population (a repeat of Dresden etc) nothing to do with collateral damage. Yes, they are indeed trying to wipe out Hamas and kill all its members, but a far more sinister element is that they may be deliberately attempting to terrorise the entire Gazan population : 'put manners on them' so to speak.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529354#Comment_121529354

They both have needed each other, that's the irony. The look over there is about people justifying what's going on in Gaza by pointing out bad things happen elsewhere as a deflection tactic. Does a judge direct a jury to absolve someone on the basis that some one else may have committed a graver offense. I think the reason this conflicts gets so much scrutiny is because It's so divisive. I think most people would agree about Sudan and Ethiopia , so there isn't the scope for polarisation of a views there. It doesn't automatically mean they don't care about people dying there. No doubt there is some anti semiitism involved in criticism of Israel but it's disingenous to claim all criticism of Israel is due to anti semitism.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529444#Comment_121529444

There is no point arguing with posters who are bringing up antisemitism. They are completing ignoring thr emotive effect of the killing of women and children. If they were massacring Hamas only, people wouldn't care.

They are just repeating whatever is the current Israeli government line because that is basically their positions. The operation should just end in theirminds s whenever the Israeli government unfurls their mission accomplished banner and declares victory.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529444#Comment_121529444

But it's not like saying individuals committing a crime because those crimes are clearly set out in law, so there's no question of whether a crime was committed or not. So for, say, speeding, you don't need to compare with anyone else: either you've broken the law, or you haven't. And it's easy to show that.

In the case of warfare, precedent is important: something is accepted to be a crime often because in another war it has been judged to be so - or not. That's why other incidents are relevant: because they set a precedent.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529516#Comment_121529516

If this were true, people would care more about the deaths of children in Yemen than they clearly do.

Quitelife

After watching the BBC lunchtime news , Israel must be the most Blood Thirsty & Evil state than ever existed on the planet , horrible horrible nation.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529626#Comment_121529626

I don't think people care about Muslims killing Muslims in general. They didn't care when the Shia and sunni militant were blowing each other up in Iraq when the americans were there. Do you care about when Jewish people are killing Muslims or only when Muslims kill Jewish people?

Strazdas

Good thread from former UK ambassador Alexandra Hall. She feels many Israel defenders (including Biden) are stuck in a 1970s mindset of Israel automatically being the good guys and Palestinians the bad guys. They just cannot compute that everything has changed and that Israel under Netanyahu is a nasty and depraved state.

https://twitter.com/alexhallhall/status/1738556831243366430

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529675#Comment_121529675

This doesn't even make sense. I don't see it as Jewish vs the rest, I see it as one small nation that is fighting to survive, and whose people have nowhere else safe in the world, as their history shows. Unlike the Palestinians who, for centuries, even by their own reckoning were "Arabs" rather than Palestinians, and who for decades didn't even want Palestine to exist, because they mostly saw themselves as part of "Greater Syria".

The Palestinians were given the option of their own country, but they didn't want that, because they wanted to destroy Israel rather than create their own functioning state. All their resources have been funnelled into weapons to destroy Israel, which is why they have now lost what they originally had. But them's the breaks when you choose to go to war.

If Ireland had rejected the treaty and gone on fighting the English, would we now be a modern state that is part of the EU or would we be a war-torn shithole?

So no, it's not about who's killing who, but about why the war is happening in the first place.

Palestinians could have accepted the existence of Israel - it was only a small percentage of the total land the Arabs were given - but no, they wanted it all. They lost that fight, so they needed to suck that up, and compromise. Like us with the treaty. You can hate a situation but not everything justifies going to war over it. And you can use peaceful means to change something. That's what we agreed with the GFA.

Instead of that though, Palestinians went all-out for a death cult that prefers constant war to building a state. And this is the result.

Meanwhile, Israel has tried all sorts of ways (some worse than others) to find ways to create a stable state next door to the death cult, but the Oct 7th attacks were an attack too far for many ordinary Israelis. Because you can't farm land or do anything normally when you're likely to be kidnapped at any moment. Hamas became an existential threat to ordinary Israeli civilian life at that stage. And nobody who is saying that Israel has overreacted seems to have any alternative suggestions to make as to what Israel could reasonably have done instead.

That makes me think that they all know well that there was no alternative, but that they want Israel to sit there and take it anyway. IOW they're perfectly content to see Israel being destroyed.

They're just not quite ready to say so out loud. Yet.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529755#Comment_121529755

They're getting there, the CBC (Canadian state TV) came out and accused Israel of starting the war with Hamas. They're backtracking now, maybe kind of, but I think its quite telling how desperate some are to paint Israel as the bad guy, not Hamas or the Palestinians who support them.

CBC blames teleprompter error for 'Israel started the Hamas war' statement (msn.com)

At this point, I'm not sure who is Israel's biggest enemy, Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran or some on the Western Left who seem to hate them even more, if that's possible.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529755#Comment_121529755

I do not want to see israel destroyed and am against this operation continuing so you can take that bogus conspiracy theory elsewhere.

There is no alternative to the slaughter of women and children with end in sight in your mind? To be honest that may be because you just take what the Israeli government line is and run with it. If Israel had not taken 20k lives in last two months they would still be in existence today.

What is your perfectly reasonable end game solution for this conflict or are you waiting for the Israeli governmentcto tell you this?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529832#Comment_121529832

The end game is for Hamas no longer to be a force in Gaza. If that has to be done by military means, then after Oct 7th, I think that's a reasonable choice to make.

What's your "reasonable end game", and how would you suggest getting there?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529832#Comment_121529832

You cannot expect us to take this seriously. You supposedly don't want Israel to be destroyed but you don't want them to defend themselves against a mortal enemy bent on their annihilation?

These two positions are mutually exclusive. Israel cannot be expected to co-exist with Hamas.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529857#Comment_121529857

I'm not against attacking hamas but bombing civilians areas to do that is wrong. Under the method you support God knows what the civilian bodycount will be at the end of this. Your crocodile tears for people in Yemen are clear when you don't question Israeli methods which is resulting in such carnage.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529869#Comment_121529869

So if a terrorist group/government, let's say Hamas for example, develops a strategy of using its own civilians as human shields, they then become unattackable in your view?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529856#Comment_121529856

So you are waiting for Israel to declare victory then.Given hamas are a terrorist group how will you know when this has happened, will you just blindly believe Israel when they announce this? And are Israel going to occupy gaza then or let a new Palestinian Authority take over that could be just a front for hamas. And this " success" on the back of 10s of thousands of civilian deaths.

I would go after the leadership of hamas have direct assassinations using the network of moles that the idf has in gaza. I know its bit as sexy as demolishing while residential areas. And then put political pressure to isolate them from their allies in the region.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529884#Comment_121529884

I wouldn't bomb them thereby ensuring their human shields die. You would obviously.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529894#Comment_121529894

International law is clear AFAIK, military targets are fair game. If one side chooses to use human shields, then they bear sole responsibility for what happens to them.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529894#Comment_121529894

I didn't ask what you wouldn't do. I asked what you would do.

It seems like your answer is "Nothing".

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529913#Comment_121529913

Targeted assassination of the leadership. The method of not killing innocent people wholesale. But hide behind international law all you want for something that is moralIy wrong. Guess you were a supporter of Gitmo Bay and waterboarding cos they were legal.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529755#Comment_121529755

Something that is very seldom highlighted is that all ! islamists want , in theory, all infidels killed. Did not Mohammed say that if an infidel do not turn his/ her back on the non Islamic religion they are following an d convert to Islam then they should be killed. Is it not stated in the Koran? I stand to be corrected and maybe it is only one or two of the ‘ branches ‘ of Islamic followers that have this as a basic tenant. The branches would include Shias, Bahais’ Wahhabism and Sunnis at least

t

The above position, is part of the unwritten script that has been driving Hamas.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529884#Comment_121529884

..and the same would naturally apply if the IDF hid behind baby Israeli civilians .

They could walk into Gaza and the surrounding Arab countries unopposed.

They could take as much land as they wanted until they were met with fierce resistance from the columns of similarly infant protected opposing armies.

That said ,it is still not clear to me why so many civilians have been killed

Is it entirely Hamas' fault or has the IDF simply found it too difficult to combat Hamas in its "civilian terrain" in a timescale or rate of it's own casualties that it is willing to accept?

Right at the start they realized that public opinion's support would fall away once the memory of Oct7 faded(I remember this fear being expressed at the time) and that would have been a motivating force to get the job done at whatever cost and as quickly as possible

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529888#Comment_121529888

No, you seem to have forgotten - or perhaps you never noticed? - that Hamas are not just a terror group.

So a good sign would be when the health ministry is no longer the Hamas-run health ministry, for instance. That would mean that the head of Al-Shifa hospital would no longer be a Hamas man, put there for his Hamas sympathies. Ditto for the education, police and justice systems in Gaza - once they are no longer run by Hamas, there would be some chance of doing what was done in Germany after the collapse of the Nazi regime and allowing others to run the place. Your belief that this would mean Israel is not shared by many Israelis, who want nothing to do with Gaza after the war. An international coalition would probably be needed. Hey - you could even put your own life where your mouth is and go and help them, since you claim to care so much about the ordinary people of Gaza.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529929#Comment_121529929

Do you really think the Israeli public is of the mood to make them stop. They don't care.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529926#Comment_121529926

So in effect, your only suggestion is "no change from previous strategy". Targeted assassinations have been happening for years. They didn't prevent Oct 7th, so they aren't enough to stop it happening again.

The rest is "look over there" handwaving from you. Hilarious, given your previous posts.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529930#Comment_121529930

I am against the killing of innocent women and children that is the difference between is. We are both only armchair warriors.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529936#Comment_121529936

No I'm looking at Gaza. And your support of the killing of innocent people. But I guess you think trh operation should end whenever the Israeli government decides it should. Nothing to do with the civilian bodycount.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529942#Comment_121529942

But not against the killing of innocent Israeli women and children, it seems. They can go stuff themselves.

Field east

I understand that , under ‘normal conditions’ and pre Oct 7th last that there were 500 trucks a day entering Gaza. And only 20% of theirs had to do with basic needs including food. The rest , I assume, had to do with cars , machinery,, Electrical goods, and suchlike. I suggest that the UN is doing a dis- service to the cause by constantly referring to this 500 trucks as if that is the current target that is now required. I wonder if Israel is not trusting the UN to supervise the trucks coming in because of this ?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529946#Comment_121529946

Now you're lying: you brought Gitmo into it, a subject on which I've never posted here, and attributed an opinion to me on it that comes straight from your own head.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529945#Comment_121529945

No I'm against the killing of both Israelis and gazans. Are you? No is the answer