Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

blackcard

Who is right and who is wrong? My poor grasp at history

Both sides have historical ties to the area. The Jews go back over 2000 years, the Arabs even longer. By the first world war, the Jews had dispersed and had only 7% of the population in Palestine. The British promised the Arabs a state in the area in return for fighting against the Ottoman Empire during WW1.

Balfour wrote to Rotschild in 1917 offering a home to the Jewish Diaspora. Why? So that Jews would put pressure on the US and Russia to continue in WW1, because of the influence of Jews in British Goverment and sympathy towards Jews having a homeland.

Jewish emigration and land purchase meant that their population had increased to a 1/3 and their land holding increased to 7%. Conflicts were ongoing between Arabs and Jews The British washed their hands of the situation and the UN got involved in 1947

There was sympathy to the Jews because of the Holocaust and genocide but the Arabs did not see why their land should be taken because of Hitler's actions thousands of miles away. Huge pressure was put on countries by Arabs and Jews. Truman was embittered by the Jewish pressure but caved saying he had never known a US election being decided by Arab money or influence. France and others had threats of reduced post war aid. Arabs tried bribery also but didn't have the same influence. Imo, the UN caved and gave the Arabs a rotten deal but I can see why Jews felt they were entitled. Even before the ink was signed, it was inevitable that Arabs would not accept the deal and would fight to regain their land. Arabs started a war. Israel, with the assistance of US and Russian arms, won more territory. Israel invaded Egypt during the Suez Crisis and started the 6 day war, Arabs started all subsequent conflicts and Israel ended up with 77% of the land.

So who is right? Neither. Israel should not have settlements in the West Bank, Hamas should not have carried out a massacre, Israel should not have killed 20,000 civilians, Hamas should release hostages, Israel should give back land, Hamas needs to be disbanded, a more moderate government is required in Israel, a UN force needs to be deployed and money provided by the US, EU and the Middle East to rebuild homes, hospitals etc.

The starting point for both sides is to admit that each is wrong

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531760#Comment_121531760

They were opposed to Zionism because Zionism would force them out of their homes, home they had held for centuries in many cases. It's too lazy to throw out the antisemitism argument when it's often much simpler and benign than that.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531760#Comment_121531760

It is previously posted here somewhere, but it is easily searchable, King-Crane Commission. A specific reference is a book called Paris 1919, by Margaret McMillan about the Paris Peace Negotiations along with a few other sources. This is perhaps the pertinent bit  "it ended as an investigation conducted solely by the United States government after the other countries withdrew to avoid the risk of being "confronted by recommendations from their own appointed delegates which might conflict with their policies" Exactly what happened.

Lets leave religion aside here, lets say the Polish population in Ireland got to about 10%. Entitled to buy land here etc, does that somehow entitle them to create a separate state here in any shape? Now imagine the EU declaring that they back the creation of a New Poland in Ireland, with the Irish people having no say in the matter? Or even worse imagine the US taking control of Ireland and backing the creation of a New Poland? How do you think people in Ireland would react to that? Figure that out and you get a better understanding of how the people in Palestine felt about Zionism and the creation of Israel. Undoubtedly there was an element of antisemitism, just as anti-immigration is already fueling issues here, but there would be still underlying problems with the whole situation. People try to justify it by claiming that the Jewish people had lived there previously and were somehow entitled to return there, but that is sliding into ideology.

We kind of went through this with the British, partition etc, which is why many people here sympathise with Palestine, especially those of a Republican persuasion.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531817#Comment_121531817

Lazy? When the antisemitism was in the air they breathed?As it is in ours.

Your "force them out of their homes" is tendentious and applying motives to them that you cannot know.

Even if it was true it doesn't mean that antisemitism wasn't the major reason.

We have the same race cards being played all the time."They are taking our jobs ,our services.Poisoning our blood."

If they were Jews ,that would be all that needed saying.

I don't think the Zionists forced many inhabitants out of their homes or land.The land was sold in an orderly way.We have that in Ireland too.Foreigners and out of towners buy up the land and houses and the owners take the cash and move on.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531872#Comment_121531872

It's a tortured analogy.No point debating it.Enough problems without wondering about a greater Poland in leafy Cork.

Oh, I see there are two analogies .Pass.

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531899#Comment_121531899

In 1947, Arabs had a majority of the population and territory. Then the majority of the territory was awarded8 to others. Can you not see why some might have an issue with this?

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531922#Comment_121531922

The issue was settled at the UN.And then the new Israeli state was attacked to within an inch of its life by it's "new neighbours"with no pauses until the present day.

.

Some "issue".

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531899#Comment_121531899

Seriously? You're trying to compare the violent mass murder and displacement of the indigenous people of the region in the name of Zionism to private citizens migrating legally to Ireland today?

Just to supply some facts, more than 80% of all Palestinians were violently displaced from their homes around 1948 in order to create the state of Israel. Many thousands were murdered. Countless massacres wiping out entire villages have been documented. In addition to executing huge numbers of civilians including many babies, there are many reports of the zionists raping women and children in the course of taking over towns. It was an ethnic cleansing, not a few economic migrants moving in. And Israel has continued to murder, terrorise, oppress and displace Palestinians to varying degrees in the 75 years since as it has taken ever more land and backed the remaining Palestinians into an ever more difficult corner, inevitably creating organisations like Hamas in retaliation.

But yes, these people must surely be antisemitic to have opposed having everything they've ever known taken from them and seeing many of their loved ones killed, maimed or raped in the process.

Sudden Valley

6k kids have been killed in the last two months. I don't think the hatred of the Palestinians to the the Israeli Jews can be put down to anti semitism now. There now have a different reason to intensely dislike them.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531941#Comment_121531941

In 1948 the Arab states invaded Israel.I don't know the details of that war but it was Israel that was invaded..

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531960#Comment_121531960

They might have a better think about targeting their ire against those who they foolishly (and likely with some coercion) voted for and who have led them down this path without consulting them ever since.

If they are accorded the chance to reflect they may come to to realize that the attack against Israel on Oct7 was bound to lead to dreadful consequences and to serve others' purposes than their own.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531974#Comment_121531974

They should blame Hamas but no one seriously thinks they will. Israel was provoked but they have killed those kids, even if it was not their intent and all the relatives of those kids will blame them. The cycle of violence will continue.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531980#Comment_121531980

Most will live to see another day .Let us hope their reason survives this period and that they draw lessons from their experience.

And that the wider community also learns.

Is there any hope that the end of the oil economy will take some of the accelerant from the Middle East situation in the medium term?

lumphammer2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529733#Comment_121529733

Netanyahu needs to go ... simple as ... he is a nasty and malign influence .... the mastermind behind withdrawing from the JCPOA Iran deal? Trump? No ... his master Netanyahu ... the biggest arms dealers to Hamas? Netanyahu's pals ... the biggest cheerleader to hardliners in post 2021 Iran? Netanyahu .... the biggest ally of ISIS during the Syrian war ... Netanyahu ... I don't believe for one minute Mossad would not have had pre warning of October 7th either .... this war was well planned and Hamas were allowed to enter Israel for justification purposes ... Netanyahu is a bad man and the Middle East is the mess it currently is because of him and his policies ... I hate Trump but expected more from Biden ... it does not seem to matter who is in power in the US when it comes to Netanyahu ... they will bend over backwards for the little scut ...

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529143#Comment_121529143

Seems more and more articles coming out regarding Israeli behaviour. Another one here on the Al Shifa hospital

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531936#Comment_121531936

Honestly, you show complete lack of awareness. You’ve been provided with excerpts, links to books etc. The issue wasn’t settled at the UN. There are numerous literacy documenting how Palestine et al were opposed to the land split, terms etc. but under pressure after the holocaust and Britain wanting to find a solution pressed ahead and the vote went in. I agree the vote passed but it was evident it wouldn’t be accepted and the war started the next day. It’s more nuanced than to say they attacked Israel. The day before Israel didn’t technically exist. I’m not saying I agree with them attacking but I can rationally understand it.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531433#Comment_121531433

This "comparison" gets trotted out a lot. There were 2 major differences between the Troubles and the Israeli/Palestine conflict.

1) No Irish government ever supported terrorism against the UK. Indeed, the Republic was often the victim of the same IRA terrorists, in terms of the killing of Gardai and other forms of organised crime in the Republic carried out by so-called "Republican" terrorists.

2) The Troubles were never a fight to the death for Britain or anyone else for that matter. The IRA only sought the removal of the British from Northern Ireland. Nobody wanted the destruction of the British state and the killing of all British people.

Israel faces the exact opposite situation on both counts.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531941#Comment_121531941

Again, there were no "Palestinians" prior to about 1960 as there never was a country called Palestine. This became a concept.

As for violent mass murder, get up the yard; again, an aggressive war waged by Egypt/Jordan/Syria against the newly established state of Israel (a recognized country by the UN), had casualties. The war of independence death totals:

"Palestinians:" 1953

Israelis: 6000

all from Wikipedia.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532060#Comment_121532060

Rationally? They (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq) disagreed and wanted the land back. That's their 'rationalizing.' So, you disagree with the UN, you're o.k. with resorting to violence? Because if you think that rational, then anytime Israel has flouted a UN resolution and been violent, you're o.k. with it.

Don't forget - the aggressors in the 1948 war wanted. the land. for themselves. "Palestinians" didn't exist then as far as they were concerned. They became a cause celebre once the aggressors realized after the 6 day war they weren't going to be able to conquer Israel. And the Palestinians became the ultimate useful idiots, willing to hijack planes, massacre atheletes, suicide bombs, etc.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121529616#Comment_121529616

It's fairly clear both sides have committed war crimes over the years. Some might be keen to cast doubt on this due to having skin in the game. They can fall back on if that's the case why has no one ever being prosecuted, well we know the victors, who are backed up by powerful allies, generally don't get held to account for war crimes.

Do you remember there was the case of an ex IDF general about to be arrested in London on foot of warrant for possible war crimes, but he was mysteriously tipped off by a MOD official to stay on the plane.

I am sure this incidence was a timely reminder to both Russia and America why they never signed up to the ICC.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531024#Comment_121531024

Interesting. Presumably these reparations could be paid with the reparations you also want the Germans, Poles, Ukrainians etc to pay to the Jews they stole from, right?

Or is that different and if so, why?

Also, would you have the Turks pay reparations to the Arrmenians, as well as the Jews, they hunted out of Turkey?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531265#Comment_121531265

I don't know, maybe they could have given them a US state, but they didn't. I mean, what's your conclusion from that?

Cos if it's "therefore Israel should not exist, and Palestinians are entitled to try to destroy it by murdering Israeli civilians", well I hope you take the same approach to the USA, to Australia, and probably to other countries including Turkey as well.

Because that would be hypocritical of you otherwise, wouldn't it?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531433#Comment_121531433

Were the IRA the actual government in Derry and Belfast?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531421#Comment_121531421

You're missing the point that Israel, as a sovereign country, is entitled to take military action to stop the government of Gaza from future similar incursions onto its territory.

It's truly sh1t for the ordinary Palestinians, but it's what happens when you vote for a terror group to run your country. It's the old problem of voting for an anti democrat: it may well be the last election you'll ever take part in - but that's really not the fault of the neighbouring countries whose role is to protect their citizens, not those of the neighbouring dictatureship.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532797#Comment_121532797

Violence in the area between the Arabs and the British was rife as well. And, of course, there were plenty of residents of the area in favor of the UN resolution, but I guess minorities don't matter if they're Jewish.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532806#Comment_121532806

Try Turkey and the Kurds?

Or indeed Turkey and Armenian Christians.

Or Pakistan and its Christians.

SO many examples, but you're only interested in the Jewish one. Funny, that.

Germany has paid a tiny fraction of what was done - they killed millions - how much shoudl they pay? And you haven't mentioned how much Russia, Lithuania, Czechia etc should pay, because they have paid nothing.

So shouldn't they all pay reparations to the Jews? (And why do you think you get to choose who gets the money? If they live in Israel, that's where it goes.)

There's a lot more owing than just what Germany paid - right? More than enough to pay off all the Palestinians, in fact. Why should only the Jews pay proper reparations?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532806#Comment_121532806

'The German's paid some reparations which sadly went to Zionist Israel."

Sadly? It's where the dispossessed people whose assets were stolen by Nazis happened to live. What, you regret them that?

Such blatant anti-semitism.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532060#Comment_121532060

"I agree the vote passed but it was evident it wouldn’t be accepted and the war started the next day."

Simple as that.,If you don't like the international consensus ,stick the boot in and strangle the newborn state.

Not just that, but 75 years later people will still "understand" why you did it.

If you want to provide me with references cite me something I can find online and not a book

I am interested in Parliamentary proceedings at the time but that doesn't mean to say that the British were immune from prejudice towards the Jews then either.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532797#Comment_121532797

No, its called giving context and background to issues rather than trying to provide a lopsided view on history as many seem to be trying to do so. The issues around Israel/Palestine started long before 1947, all the UN resolution did was solidify the issues that had already been created. The UN are an organisation, they do not get every decision correct. Clearly after WW2, there was a huge amount of guilt over the fate of the Jewish population of Europe, but making decisions based on emotions are not always the most logical. But of course there was a large amount of politicking going on in the UN as well at the time. The Soviets thought that Israel might become a socialist state as some of the communes that had been formed in Israel where on a collective basis, the Soviets also wanted to sow discord between the British and their traditional Arab allies so they saw the creation of Israel as a means to do so. Of course they used their influence on all the satellite Soviet countries to also vote in the same manner. Lets not forget, not a single Middle-Eastern Country supported the resolution.

Good of you also to at least recognise that Israel is similar to the US, Australia etc in how they were created. I think it is widely recognised nowadays that the people who lived in those places before colonialism got screwed over. Peoples who lose their lands or their rights tend to put up a resistance. That is not a justification, it is just reality. Fact is all these issue were foreseen in the King-Crane commission of 1919 as noted. Poor decisions were made on top of poor decisions and the people of the region have been paying the price ever since.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532275#Comment_121532275

Sure there were no Irish people before 1921 either.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533060#Comment_121533060

By not accepting the decision, the locals sealed their fate. Sorry you're unhappy about it, and your judging the decisions as poor is subjective, not objective.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533085#Comment_121533085

So, by not accepting colonialism and being pushed of their lands, locals deserved the fate they received. Got it.

I think the fact this is going on a 100 years later would back the opinion that poor decisions were made.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533082#Comment_121533082

Well this shows the level of your knowledge. If there were no Irish people before 1921, would the Duke of Wellington have felt the need to say he wasn't Irish using the logic that "Being born in a stable does not make one a horse"?

How could the Irish Republican Brotherhood have been created in 1858, if there was no concept of being Irish before 1921?

Whereas right up until the late 20th century, many Palestinians were opposed to the idea that they were "less than" "Pan Arabs". They wanted a replacement for the Ottoman empire, not a much smaller and less powerful state called Palestine.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533181#Comment_121533181

There was a region in the Ottoman Empire known as Palestine, the people who lived there were known as Palestinians. Primarily Arabs. During WW1 the British promised the Arabs a pan-Arab state which the Arabs thought would include modern day Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Paelestine, Jordan and the Western strip of Saudi Arabia, the areas in which they lived. Of course the British reneged on that promise, and along with the French split the region into the various mandates which has led to so much conflict since.

The whole mantra post WW1 was the right of self-determination for ethnic groups/nationalities, except that right was very much at the whim of the Great Powers. Never at any point were the people who lived in what became Palestine given the right to self-determination. Everything was foisted on to them.

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532907#Comment_121532907

The 1947 UN decision was a truly shocking decision. Jews owned 7% of the land but the newly formed Israel was granted 56% of the territory. It was a land grab aided by bribery, economic threats and expedited by Jewish terrorism against the British. It was predictable that the Arabs would fight for land that was rightfully theirs

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533099#Comment_121533099

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Repeatedly instigating and losing wars sacrificing your own people, committing acts of terrorism, well, yeah, you're making poor decisions.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533302#Comment_121533302

I forget which account natters on about the 56% business (and again, Jews were 1/3 the population of Palestine), but most of that land was in the Negev desert. I am certain had the Arabs offered, say, Gaza instead of the Negev, confining themselves to the Negev, the Israelis would've been quite happy.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533357#Comment_121533357

Did the native Americans play stupid games when they tried to resist settlers taking their land? You seem very keen on justifying colonialism?

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533386#Comment_121533386

You seem very keen on false analogies.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533416#Comment_121533416

You seem very keen on ignoring anything that's shows the people of Palestine were ignored and generally screwed over in the cause of Zionism.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533432#Comment_121533432

Everyone screws everyone .

Had the "Palestinians" and the Arabs won(screwed the Jews) in 47/48 I would have been telling the Jews to make the best of the hand they were dealt.

Israel .The little state that could.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533449#Comment_121533449

Not really surprising to see the imperialistic might is right mindset coming to the fore now.

Sudden Valley

Arguing over the past I think is pretty irrelevant as I dont think the Palestinians will ever think they got a fair deal from the Jewish people in the past, and that will keep them fighting the Jewish people, even if the conflict only goes "hot" every few decades.

This is more a problem for Israel as they just want peace with the surrounding countries and that is prevented in any meaningful way if they are still fighting the Palestinians.

Hamas may be defeated and the rockets stop for a short while but if Israel doesn't occupy Gaza, which I dont think it has the strength to, the Gazans will be building up to avenge their 20k dead in a few years.

ollkiller

As we all hunker down for the Christmas with our lovely pints of Guinness in warm pubs I pray for a ceasefire so innocent children dont die.

The conflict is a clusterf**k. A new years resolution I'd love to see happen is a 2 state solution leading to peace. It is actually the only way forward. In time, which could take decades due to barbarism by both Hamas and Israel being c**ts it might happen.

Peace to you and yours this christmas. I despair at the lack of empathy on this thread to thousands of innocent people being killed.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533478#Comment_121533478

I don't expect the Palestinians to give up. I have no skin in the game so they can continue to fight or not, I'm not recommending either choice. I just see no victory for either side in my lifetime. I also don't believe either side are animals.

I am against the current Israeli operation and the death toll.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533463#Comment_121533463

Thanks for the ad hom,fellah!

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533060#Comment_121533060

Unless you're calling for the USA to be given back to the natives, it's hardly much of a concession from me. We are where we are, is the point.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533256#Comment_121533256

And everyone who lives in Siberia is a Siberian, but so what? It's a mixture of ethnicities, and the fact that one religion had the power over the all the others for decades, charging them a special tax to be "allowed" to live in their native lands for example, doesn't actually make those people any more entitled to decide on the government than any of the others.

The fact is that the Muslims, specifically Arab Muslims, all around the Middle East and North Africa were determined to chase everyone else, including Jews and Christians - how many Jews are left in North Africa now? They hated the Jews so much that they couldn't bear for them to even have a tiny percentage of the lands being divvied up among the Arabs after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Nor the Armenian Christians in Turkey, nor indeed the Syrian Christians or any anyone else. Only Muslims were to be allowed to have a say in what replaced the Ottomans.

The Christians and Kurds and the Yazidis etc all got pretty much nothing.

Only the effect of the Holocaust in Europe meant that Jews were so desperate that they came anyway, despite everything, and meant also that other countries were shamed into giving the Jews a tiny part of the land, much of it desert, that was being redistributed in the aftermath of the Ottomans and the two WWs.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533432#Comment_121533432

That why they became citizens of Israel? Because they were ignored?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533386#Comment_121533386

We've been over this before. It's not colonisation when there is no "motherland" as a home-base for the colonisers.

As for the native Americans, the question is not what they "should have done" at the time. It's whether they'd be entitled now to go into random American homes and rape and murder them today, because their ancestors were forced out of their homes in the past.