Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536150#Comment_121536150

Is there an echo in here?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536154#Comment_121536154

Posted by accident before adding my comment.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536144#Comment_121536144

Yes ,very slick.

Timberrrrrrrr

Israel getting called out foe their lies

https://twitter.com/PalestineNW/status/1739262806912794983?t=cgaJs3_7Y01XJ9ZrcYQw-g&s=19

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536127#Comment_121536127

It seems that more (including Israelis) agree that Israel practices apartheid than those who refute it.

Jimmy Carter's statements do appear to "clarify" that Israel practices apartheid in the West Bank.

On balance, I don't thing I could disagree with anyone who says Israel is an apartheid state.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid

The video interview posted above references the previous head of Mossad who made his statement in September this year.

from the wiki ref:

A March 2023 position paper by the Israeli Law Professors' Forum for Democracy, a group of 120 Israeli law professors, stated that recent changes introduced by the Netanyahu government "validate the claim that Israel practices apartheid"

for balance,

Manfred Gerstenfeld quoted Gideon Shimoni, professor emeritus of Hebrew University, as saying in a 2007 interview that the analogy is defamatory and reflects a double standard when applied to Israel and not to neighboring Arab countries, whose policies towards their Palestinian minorities have been described as discriminatory

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536127#Comment_121536127

I think Herzog's statement disputing "illegal occupation of the West Bank" goes back to 1967. But it could be this - I'm not sure.

UN SC 2334 (December 2016)

"The resolution states that Israel's settlement activity constitutes a "flagrant violation" of international law and has "no legal validity". It demands that Israel stop such activity and fulfill its obligations as an occupying powerunder the Fourth Geneva Convention.[2][3]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_2334#:~:text=Resolution%202334%20concerns%20such%20settlements,be%20illegal%20on%20that%20basis.

TheValeyard

So Israel blew up an Iranian General in Damascus....

Israel knows this will require and Iranian response. They are trying to create a larger war.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536255#Comment_121536255

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Qasem_Soleimani

So not without precedent.The Iranians did not retaliate last time(2020)

Is Israel trying to provoke or just aiming to deter Iran from getting involved?

dmcdona

I wonder how the situation in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank would have played out, say for the next 12 months, if Oct 7 did not happen?

I wonder this because perhaps thinking that through would give some insight into why Hamas did what they did?

I do also wonder if current hostilities by the Huthis and Hezbollah, coupled with Syria and Iran will remain at the skirmish level or escalate?

As regards civilians in Gaza, God help them.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536326#Comment_121536326

I've seen speculation that Hamas thought Gaza was slipping down the global news agenda and was in danger of being forgotten by the international community. The theory is that they had to do something to get it front and centre again, no matter how gruesome or violent.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536326#Comment_121536326

If Israel and Egypt came to an agreement they could allow civilians to pass into Egypt(and Israel) for the length of time required to destroy Hamas in Gaza.

Then they could return.

Sounds sh!ty but better than the present situation.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536281#Comment_121536281

Iran are akin to a drunk shouting hold me back. They are fond of belligerent rhetoric but are rational actors in the final analysis.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536370#Comment_121536370

Most actors in positions of power are rational within the bounds of the madness required to get to their positions in the first place.

Iran will doubtless be quite happy to fight another day if they think they have time in their side.

I wonder if they think their position is secure if they enter into a conflict with Israel or the States.

Have they any allies? Do they have the support of their own population?

I wonder who (apparently) authorized the attack on the ship in the Red Sea.

Maybe it was a faction of the army /militias trying to drag the country into a conflict but the leadership as a whole was not behind it?(afraid of the faction and not ready to take it on for now)

StarryPlough01

WE NEED MORE INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE ON ISRAEL, THEY AREN’T LISTENING BECAUSE UNITED STATES LOADS ISRAEL WITH AMMO AS WELL AS MONEY

The New York Times Video ⬇️

My Notes​:

‘SINCE WAR IN GAZA BEGAN, THE US HAS SENT MORE THAN FIVE THOUSAND 2,000-POUND BOMBS’​

208 craters indicating 2,000-pound bombs dropped where Israel told civilians they would be safe

‘And likely more bombs used than what is captured in the video’…​

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0

'Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped Bombs [2,000-pound bombs] Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go'

"A Times investigation used aerial imagery and artificial intelligence to detect bomb craters that showed that one of Israel’s biggest bombs was used routinely in south Gaza.

Hindustan Times Video ⬇️

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htxkbUs9oSk

'Worse Than What U.S. Did In Iraq': Watch How Israel Devastated Gaza With 2,000-Pound Bombs

“An analysis has revealed that Israel pounded Gaza with hundreds of 2,000-pound bombs. The study on the Gaza bombardment was done by CNN and the artificial intelligence company Synthetaic. It cited satellite imagery from the early days of the war, revealing over 500 impact craters. The report claimed the bombs were four times heavier than the one the U.S. dropped on ISIS in Iraq's Mosul.

SeanW

I had no idea that the Far-Left had become this evil. I had a low opinion of them before but even I found this truly shocking.

Would College Students Donate to Support the Killing of Jews? - YouTube

I think we can put the "Anti-Zionism isn't Anti-Semitism" argument to bed now.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536594#Comment_121536594

You seriously think a PragerU video is a credible source for anything??

Timberrrrrrrr

And then they wonder why the Palestinians fight back.

https://twitter.com/MalcolmXPage/status/1739450011497148763?t=ed4EdiUtcS0gWgmaQTznqg&s=19

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536635#Comment_121536635

TBH I didn't notice the source at first. I was just amazed at how easy it was to get Lefty college students to support killing the Jews.

Tell me how

Israel Prime Minister.

On Christmas day.

https://twitter.com/IsraeliPM/status/1738968478806094309?t=eOcQp-4xu6F3eHX1c-0cFA&s=19

This is a battle, not only of Israel against these barbarians, it's a battle of civilization against barbarism.

No difference between this rhetoric and that of Nazis.

Where's that poster who claimed Israel only care about hostages (their own)? Shameful stuff.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121535846#Comment_121535846

"it's a simple fact the IDF would be bombing Gaza for some other reason" - it seems you don't understand the difference between fact and opinion.

Unless the "eventually" means that Hamas would have committed some other atrocious crime.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121535947#Comment_121535947

You asked a question that made it seem as though I had said something I hadn't said. I explained what I had actually meant. I didn't insult you or get annoyed in any way, just clarified my own points.

Not sure why that seems to cause you some sort of problem. Maybe read what's actually been said next time?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537092#Comment_121537092

israel have bombed gaza unprovoked plenty of times, so hamas this and hamas that is meaningless really as israel would attack regardless of whether hamas existed or not.

i mean they slaughtered thousands during their years of occupation of gaza.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537158#Comment_121537158

Unprovoked? Any chance of some actual evidence of this?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536086#Comment_121536086

How are they "ensuring another attack" when Hamas have already committed the attack and promised to commit more of them until Israel no longer exists?

You're just victim-blaming there. The attack happened, so the idea that maybe there'll be no further attacks if only Israel would just sit there and do nothing is completely illogical. It's the attitude that led many Jews quietly to the death camps from the Warsaw Ghetto. I don't blame them for saying "Never again".

It's just embarrassing (to me) that so many Irish people seem to think they should let themselves be murdered again now.

ollkiller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537329#Comment_121537329

Most Irish people recognize that Israel has a right to after Hamas. It's the indiscriminate slaughter of thousands of innocent people, mostly children that they have a problem with. You do realise Israel can, and will go after Hamas for years. As that's what it will take to eradicate them, if that's even possible. But they're going the scorched earth route about it without a care for civilian lives. That's what people have a problem with.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536459#Comment_121536459

Not condoning the use of 2'000 lb Bombs, or indeed dropping any kind of bombs on civilian targets, but when you are dealing with an enemy buried 50+ feet underground, dropping large 2'000 lb bombs might be the only kind of bomb that works.

Quitelife

Israel killing all round them over Christmas will never be forgotten by people of the world , Definitely the most evil nation ever created .

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121536086#Comment_121536086

Strange maybe, but how I see that playing out is that if Hamas do stage another brutal attack on Israel, then you will see opinion turning against them. It's one thing to be riding the crest of the anti-Israeli publicity wave, but that advantage (if that's the right word) could be lost very quickly, and that's what will happen if Hamas does stage another attack. With Israel saying " Look we told you what Hamas are like, now you can see for yourselves.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537455#Comment_121537455

A huge number of civilians are being killed in Gaza. It's not at all clear to me why that's Israel's rather than Hamas' fault.

It's also ignoring the fact that Egypt is stopping Gazans from fleeing across the border - so aren't they responsible for civilian deaths in Gaza too? Yet there's no talk about that.

The IDF's job is to dismantle Hamas. Not to save Gazan civilian lives - that was Hamas' job, and they chose to attack Israeli civilians in Israel just for being Israeli, in order to provoke this sort of attack from Israel. Hamas have prepared for this by using Gazan civilian infrastructure so that ordinary Gazans become human shields for Hamas' fighters.

So either Israel agrees with you that this effectively makes Hamas untouchable, in which case Israeli civilians can never feel safe within Israel ever again, or else the IDF attacks Hamas despite the likely death toll among Gazans.

Which do you think is a more reasonable approach for the Israeli DEFENCE force?

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537499#Comment_121537499

A military "expert" on CNN seemed sceptical that they would work.(they aren't bunker busters)

I still don't understand why civilians would remain in areas being bombed

Would Hamas be deliberately following them around as soon as they attempt to relocate to areas that aren't being bombed?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537329#Comment_121537329

no victim blaming but simple fact from that poster.

your post on the other hand is the victim playing that has caused israel to lose world support because it plays the victim while lieing and being the aggresser.

october the 7th wouldn't have happened with secure borders, it only happened because israel deliberately opened the borders knowing what was going to happen.

israel bombing the place into oblivian, raping and slaughtering of itself will not stop attacks.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537530#Comment_121537530

The most evil nation ever??

So the Nazis who murdered 6 million Jews just for being Jewish, and the Khmer Rouge who murdered about 3 million people for the crime of knowing how to read, and the North Koreans who still starve their population into submission - all pale into insignificance beside the Jews who dare to fight back against a murderous attack on their citizens, in their own homes or at a concert?

Turkey which displaced and murdered millions of its Armenian minority. And has murdered who knows how many of its Kurdish minority even recently.

Pakistan which regularly executes Pakistani Christians (a tiny minority in the country) on trumped-up charges of blasphemy, or jails women for the crime of having been raped - all minor misdemeanours compared to the evil Jews who refused to sit back and take yet another pogrom against them.

Ok, got that. I'm sure there's no anti semitism in that opinion of yours at all.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537329#Comment_121537329

It's more "lets go out and do it to them before they do it to us" than "never again" or even just "never (us) again" and multiple pro Israel posters on thread have openly said as much at this stage.

Oct. 7th has broken a lot of brains.

Supporters of Israel have retreated to some fantasy land where they are fighting world-dominating Modern Nazis of Hamas (and their sympathisers and fellow travellers) in some grand war for the fate of civilisation and light.

Of course, in such a war, anything goes, the ends justify the means. It's nuts really.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537557#Comment_121537557

october the 7th wouldn't have happened with secure borders, it only happened because israel deliberately opened the borders knowing what was going to happen.

🙄

No victim blaming here, no sireeee

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537530#Comment_121537530

So I guess the Soviet Union, Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge, the People's Republic of China, Nazi Germany, the Japanese Empire and Leopold IIs Congolese dominions never existed? Between them they slaughtered at least 150,000,000 people.

Or somehow they were not as evil as a tiny little country that's been under attack since the day it was founded. One that just happens to be the only Jewish state in the world?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537580#Comment_121537580

How can it be "before they do it to us" after Oct 7th? Unless you think Hamas were about to bomb Israel, this is a completely counterfactual take on events.

Hamas had already attacked Israel, and promised to do it again, and again.

So no, the chronology of events shows that you're simply wrong about that.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537590#Comment_121537590

Oct. 7th (and Hamas) did not destroy Israel, and could not have destroyed Israel.

By contrast I don't think there's going to be much left of Gaza or its former population after this.

I predict we'll be looking back in the mirror at the 3rd big "ethnic cleansing" of 2023 - seems like all the cool countries are doing it now (and getting away with it to an extent)..."never again" what a joke.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537590#Comment_121537590

And, sad to have to post this yet again, Hamas continues to launch rockets. They *never stop* attacking Israel.

Palmach

If you are comparing to the Khmer Rough you are not a serious poster.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537555#Comment_121537555

There was a report last week about Russia dropping a 3'000 lb bomb on Kherson that they claimed was capable of penetrating 60ft deep. Whatever about its penetrating effect, a 2'000 lb bomb would have devastating effect on any nearby buildings. Hamas knew very well how Israel would react to the attack, and indeed, the whole Hamas plan was based on the Israeli reaction. A massive Palestinian death / injury was also part of their plan, so Yes, I'm pretty sure that Hamas prevented Palestinians from reaching safe areas. And the resulting headlined (which did come to pass) "Israel orders Palestinians to evacuate to safe areas, then bomb the safe areas, and that's exactly what happened.

Israel are pure and utter scum. The tide has turned against them.

Proud of the stance Ireland took from the outset.

I haven't spent too much time looking at this story lately as it is utterly depressing and hopeless. When I last looked at the end of November Israel where acting complete irrationally and they seem to have ramped up. However their main supporters US, UK and EU now seem to realise they are dealing with a mad out of control state led by a madman in Netenyahu.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537722#Comment_121537722

Could they ,rather than preventing civilians from moving (not sure how they could do that -perhaps with misinformation?) have just followed the movement of the civilians as much as possible(minimizing their casualties) ?

Does Israel have the luxury of time against Hamas?Can Hamas outlast IDF even just in Gaza?

If they ration their rockets they can remain "undefeated " as long as they can still fire them. Do they gave a chance of defeating/frustrating IDF in more than "just" the propaganda front?

We seem to have two armies who both have "home advantage".

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537753#Comment_121537753

Of course, any sane person would be blaming Hamas (Gaza's terrorist government) for this, 100% but ...

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537910#Comment_121537910

Yes rational people will blame Hamas for this but also they can call out the disproportionate response of the Israelis in all of this. Just because you agree with them doesn't automatically make it right.

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537573#Comment_121537573

I couldn’t give a toss what religion Israel is - all most people see is a nation dropping bombshell on top of families and hospitals ….. not to mention stripping people they capture , pure humiliation and evil thing to be doing on Christmas Day of all days !!

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537109#Comment_121537109

So, you surmised all of the above from this?

"Is the Iranian general a Hamas operative?"

With the best will in the word, that's a stretch...

As mentioned further in, it was a genuine question. I only quoted you because you brought assassination into the debate.

Maybe you should read what is being asked a bit more carefully...

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537587#Comment_121537587

How many people will be slaughtered to satisfy Israel’s blood thirst ??

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537312#Comment_121537312

actual evidence seeing as you asked - I saw Israel terrorise Gaza for no reason at all. naval exercises at night, tracer to beat the band. Israeli friends told me Israeli airforce would fly low over Gaza, hit Mach 1 and break all the windows because, well, terrorism.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121537553#Comment_121537553

I'd imagine most people are pretty clear that the constant shelling and bombing plus boots on the ground is what is killing civilians. And that all happens to be by Israel.

its not hard you know....

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121538006#Comment_121538006

What does it matter that it's Christmas day?