Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539250#Comment_121539250

its a question of perspective. It is a fact that in areas of Gaza that the IDF have taken control of, there are no longer any missiles or rockets fired into Israeli territory. from these areas. So Yes, from the Israeli perspective, that is taking back control. And for your information, I've lived in that part of the world for several years, and I do not support either side, and especially when it comes to propaganda. If you want to believe that I am anti Hamas, and Pro Israel, you are very much mistaken, but believe whatever suits you.

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539297#Comment_121539297

You are correct, I should have said that Egyptians preceded Jews in the area

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539343#Comment_121539343

If that's the way you interpret it, then fire away, freedom of thought and speech is allowed here in Ireland.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539249#Comment_121539249

Yes, and you also said that all Israel is doing now with its bombardment is guaranteeing a new generation of Hamas (or its replacement) Martyrs. And yes, I agree with you. But not only that, Hamas is still launching attacks on Israel, and I don't believe that Israel will stop until at least some weeks go by without any Hamas attacks. But now, Palestinians are riding on a scale of support worldwide, that they never had before. And by extension, the justice you mention may have a real chance of materializing. But if the scenario you envisage comes to pass, with revenge attacks on Israel, then the Palestinians will have lost the high moral ground, and it will become Business as usual, or in other words, which came first? the chicken or the egg?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539427#Comment_121539427

Israel needs to treat the Palestinians with respect if they want a sustainable peace and help them rebuild Gaza. Hamas might just disappear if that happened imo, a big maybe. You catch more bees with honey than you do with vinegar. There's a grid in one of the posts on the last page about the deaths in Israel and Gaza through violence since 2006 and it wouldn't inspire a lot of hope but they have to try something.

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539383#Comment_121539383

Unfortunately, Israel's reputation in the last 4 weeks in particular has taken a nosedive judging by interactions I have had with friends and colleagues. Initially after the Hamas barbaric attack, there was a huge outpouring of sympathy for Israel. I think also that Ireland in general would have more in common with Israel due to its western outlook and values and there would a concern that some extremists exists among Islamists. I honestly think amongst a more secular Ireland that very, very few would have religious issues with Jews. Somehow, bizarrely, Israel has somehow managed to turn public opinion against it. Netanyahu, various Israeli spokespeople, the disproportionate attacks, the seeming lack of empathy, the images of flattened buildings, injured and dead women and children, people living in tents, all these have contributed to this. Israel, for its own sake, if not for humanitarian reasons, has to change its approach. Of all nations in the world, you would think Israel would have more compassion

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539223#Comment_121539223

Yes, Israel have indiscriminately bombed areas of Gaza they have deemed safe for civilians:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bomb-investigation.html

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539361#Comment_121539361

But if the IDF do not occupy these places you and they claim they have control of, when this operation ends, what happens then? They instantly lose control.

I dont care if you are anti- Hamas, I am Anti -Hamas. I also dont think it matters if you have lived in that part of the world for many years that doesnt make you are less of a chance of being totally biased in favour of the Palestinians or the Israelis.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539449#Comment_121539449

It's the ideal, of course, but realistically, can you see that happening?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539459#Comment_121539459

Yes, you would think that, but when all is said and done, it's the Middle East, and as they say, things are done differently there, and I mean that in the best possible way.

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539521#Comment_121539521

Maybe we all have to point to solutions? And the solution doesn't begin with the complete capitulation of the other side. The way I look at it, there is 2,000 years of history to be overcome. There is right and wrong on both sides. There has to be a 2 states solution. The 1947 solution which Palestinians deemed to be unacceptable but Israelis generally accepted hoping for more? I think Palestinians would now accept these borders but Israelis wouldn't?

I would be interested in your views

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539490#Comment_121539490

Ok, so the NY times says Israel bombed safe areas. I don't disbelieve it, why not, ? If Hamas move to these safe areas too? I'm not in the slightest condoning it in any shape or form. And for sure, Israel have bombed multi-apartment blocks in the Centre of Gaza in the belief that Hamas members were living in them. So yes, it most likely happened.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539492#Comment_121539492

Believe me, Sudden Valley, as sure as night follows day, when Israel finishes its military campaign against Hamas, one way or another, they will completely control every sq inch of Gaza. The 2005 hand over to the Palestinians will not happen again. You will have the IDF at every street corner, and in every administrative building. They will control everything that comes into and leaves Gaza. No longer will anyone be able to smuggle in missiles and bombs, or concrete to build tunnels. Gaza will be administered by the IDF.

As for me living in that part of the world for many years, you are right, it has influenced my thinking and opinion. And that opinion is that at different times both sides have brutalized each other. And they continue to do so, as recent events have shown. I've experienced the Taliban in Afghanistan, Al-Qaida and ISIS in Syria, (they killed friends of mine there) and I can tell you that I consider Hamas to be just another terrorist group, and like ISIS and Taliban, the sooner they are all eliminated from the face of the earth, the better.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539550#Comment_121539550

So far, here on boards, there's been 870 pages and 26082 posts wrangling over the very points you mention, especially when you think of the context, all 2'000 years of it. That in my opinion is very important. But I can assure you that when very experienced diplomats, and specialists in politics in that part of the world, have so far been unable to solve the problem, I haven't a hope of a snowball in hell of doing it. So, your opinion and solution suggestions are every bit as valid as anyone else's. And maybe even better than many.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539580#Comment_121539580

I would agree that the world would be better without Hamas.

But the first paragraph is why I think you buy into the Israeli propaganda full scale, and that is why I do not believe you. I think those who support the continuation of the killing of civilians support such cruelty as they believe it is the only way to reach this perfect resolution to the conflict you describe. Its like you think it was an easy choice to leave Gaza in 2005.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539595#Comment_121539595

Sudden Valley, I'm stating it as I see it. I had no hand act or part in how the situation developed into what it is now in the present time. But you have managed to convert that into support for Israeli military response? Now that takes some doing, for sure!! How did you manage to do that? Obviously, you read the situation different to me, but please explain how you have arrived at the conclusion that I support Israel??? And the killing of innocent civilians? I don't, for sure, but just how do you suggest that I (or anyone else) stop the killings?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539614#Comment_121539614

I believe that you have no hand or part in this. I got this impression form the nature of your posts such as comparing the IDF to Putin, a ridiculous comparison since anyone not completely evil would look good compared to Putin. Perhaps you could put my confusion to bed, do you want Israel to stop immediately and allow humanitarian aid in without any preconditions? That would save civilian lives.

As to how to stop the killing, do you not support Israel's continued methods that are leaving 10s of thousands of Palestinians dead.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539459#Comment_121539459

Indeed, I have seen a lot of people say on social media that after October 7th they supported Israel and its right to go after Hamas. Things began to change though after weeks of relentless bombing and horrific images of children being pulled from the rubble etc. The IDF's non stop lying and use of misinformation and the extremely aggressive and confrontational tone of Israeli spokespeople and diplomats hasn't helped them a jot either. Many of these people say they have now abandoned support for Israel and have come to see Palestinians as the real victims.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539625#Comment_121539625

Through the slaughtering of innocent people, both Russia and Israel made the world take notice and for people to research or education themselves about the history of the conflicts. So many, myself included were oblivious to the plights of Ukraine and Gaza, now pretty much everyone is up to date on the history. Israel managed to turn the shock and horror of the Oct 7th attacks and the support for Israel and literally just transferred that over to Gaza. Most people can see through the lies and bullshit the Israeli diplomats and spokespersons spew, we've seen it all with the Russians. It's amazing how similar they are!

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539636#Comment_121539636

I've seen many commentators suggest Israel has scored a quite spectacular own goal here, possibly one that may take decades to recover from. They had all of the moral high ground and major sympathy right after October 7th, but have blown it with their insane three month orgy of revenge and violence (something Netanyahu says could go on for many more months yet).

sock.rocker*

They had sympathy because innocent people died, but as a country, they never had the moral high ground. They're one of the worst nations on the planet and we're being suitably condemned earlier this year for it.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539641#Comment_121539641

Absolutely, that's the case. Remember when buildings in the US and Europe were lit up in blue and white colours in solidarity with Israel, that won't be happening anytime soon as it will show support for Israel's mass bombing of innocent civilians.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121538699#Comment_121538699

If they have intelligence on their locations, yes, I'm sure the likes of those countries would do what they could to extract them. In fairness to the Israelis, they have something of a track record of doing the same.

However, they aren't going to stop the war just because they might kill some of their own side. In WW2 the Allies ended up accidentally killing over 20,000 of their own captured soldiers in the attempt to defeat the enemy. It wasn't considered a major scandal, it was part of the natural consequence of war and of keeping the eye on the prize.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539595#Comment_121539595

So Israel is the only belligerent in any war in history that is not allowed to cause collateral damage? Why are you singling out Israel? How exactly is Israel supposed to fight a mortal enemy with one hand tied behind their proverbial back?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539550#Comment_121539550

My 2 cents on the '47 borders FWIW is that they are totally impractical today. Firstly, the Jewish state called for in the '47 plan would only work for an Israel that had little or no security concerns. Obviously, that proved to be somewhat optimistic, to say the least. The second reason is that Israel had to suddenly accept waves of Jewish refugees from other parts of the Middle East and North Africa, which the leadership of Israel hadn't planned on.

In fact, there were more Jewish refugees fleeing the rest of the MENA region than Arab refugees fleeing during the so-called Nakba. Most of the Jewish refugees went to Israel and became citizens - and they are, as well as their descendants, native the MENA region. Ideally, the all the displaced Arabs should have gone to the countries that the Jews had left in a population exchange.

And don't underestimate the impact of geography on all of this, Israel's geography is absolutely horrifying for a country that is always on defence against neighbours waiting for a chance to annihilate them. And a country with so many mortal enemies (Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, ISIS, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda and the Western Left among others) cannot afford to ignore military geography.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539710#Comment_121539710

"So-called Nakba"? Your whole post is just an indirect way of saying you support illegal takeover of territory and ethnic cleansing. For all your feigned shock at The Left earlier, you're far worse

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539641#Comment_121539641

With respect, this is such a Western Armchair General comment.

What is the point in having the “moral high ground” if your citizens are being kidnapped and killed and your citizens are afraid? Israel had to act.

How far and in what manner is certainly up for debate but wallowing in self pity and moral sympathy from people in Ireland etc (who enjoy the protection of NATO and the UK and have never in living memory had to defend themselves against multiple enemies) wouldn’t really have helped Israel.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539800#Comment_121539800

Moral high ground is how the RCC taught Ireland to be neutral in wartime. It served their needs, wouldn't want the populace to become more self reliant.

Always easy to do when some other protects your borders (UK, US)

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539783#Comment_121539783

Yes, because the majority of refugees who had to flee during and after '47/'48 were Jewish. About 900,000 Jews fled the MENA region with 650,000 settling in Israel. The Nakba, by contrast, affected 700,000 in all.

TheRepentent

idf murder junky says the war on civilians is going to continue for a couple of months

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/1227/1423798-gaza-israel/

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539812#Comment_121539812

Nakba is a meme created by BDS and used in their worldwide campaign to delegitimize Israel.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539812#Comment_121539812

So because it was only 700,000 and not a majority that makes it 'so-called'? You know more Slavs died in WW2, does that make it the so-called Holocaust in your eyes? Don't answer, it's rhetorical, your logic speaks for itself

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539580#Comment_121539580

I think you are being more than a bit naive there if you think the IDF will be able to sustain a long term operation amongst the physical and human ruins they have created in Gaza.

Of course if they succeed in driving out most of the population first it's a different matter

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539916#Comment_121539916

The 900,000 Jews have been largely forgotten about. When we think of refugees from this particular conflict, it's nearly always considered to be synonymous with Arab refugees fleeing Israel, and not the majority which were Jews fleeing the rest of the MENA region, the majority of them in turn going TO Israel.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121538420#Comment_121538420

Presumably they're in tunnels hard to get to

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540013#Comment_121540013

That still doesn't explain why you feel the need to denigrate the ethnic cleansing of 700,000 people like you did.

But of course we really do know why, it's why you also say all 900,000 were refugees, when the exact amount is not so clear and the reality is more complicated.

"In a Knesset hearing, Ran Cohen stated emphatically: "I have this to say: I am not a refugee." He added: "I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee."

"Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath has rejected the comparison, arguing that the ideological and historical significance of the two population movements are totally different and that any similarity is superficial. Porath says that the immigration of Jews from Arab countries to Israel, expelled or not, was from a Jewish-Zionist perspective the fulfilment of "a national dream" and of Israeli national policy in the form of the One Million Plan. He notes the efforts of Israeli agents working in Arab countries, including those of the Jewish Agency in various Arab countries since the 1930s, to assist a Jewish "aliyah". Porath contrasts this with what he calls the "national calamity" and "unending personal tragedies" suffered by the Palestinians that resulted in "the collapse of the Palestinian community, the fragmentation of a people, and the loss of a country that had in the past been mostly Arabic-speaking and Islamic""

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539823#Comment_121539823

Ethnic cleansing is a meme, that's the moral level of the Netanyahu enablers here

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539802#Comment_121539802

So to support what we think is right thing is the fault of the RCC? There are posters here that will support Israel no matter how many civilians they kill in this operation, until Israel say they are done and this unthinking support is somehow to be admired and followed?

Did you think Netanyahu was a good guy before this operation began? Do you want to give him carte blanche to kill as many civilians as he likes?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540178#Comment_121540178

I'm not so sure about this. With regard to "expelled or not" I mean if you're expelled from a place, you are a refugee from it almost by definition, would that not be so?

As to the concept of some having left their homes due to the "call of the land" to make Aliyah, it must be borne in mind that of the 900,000, only 650,000 went to Israel, ergo 250,000 went somewhere else. At any rate, it must take some really serious events to cause 900,000 people to leave their homes and migrate in a relatively short span of history.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540186#Comment_121540186

And yet, things like BDS predated Netanyahu's time as Israeli PM.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539800#Comment_121539800

There's talk that their relentless violent assault on Gaza and its civilians could go on for another three to six months. In no way could that be seen as a proportionate response to October 7th. They've already 'lost the room' in terms of global opinion.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540589#Comment_121540589

From their perspective they have to see it through. If even one Hamas rocket unit survives the war and fires on Israel then they will spin it as a victory. With this in mind there must be some in the Israeli Cabinet who like the Egyptian plan, as it offers them a way out of this which they can spin as a victory. Hamas have naturally rejected it, but I can see a point coming whereby they will accept it because again the political leadership love the rhetoric about Martyrdom but it's clearly not for them. The plan may involve giving immunity to some of their top leadership, but the question is would Israel stick to such an agreement long term.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540618#Comment_121540618

It may not be a Hamas rocket but I could see rockets returning to being launched at Israel at some point. Unless Israel is willing to kill all men of combat age then I think Hamas will just disappear into the general populace and bide their time. I dont believe IDF will be able to occupy the Gaza strip of 2 million people considering only a few months ago they were no able to secure their own borders.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540618#Comment_121540618

One huge mistake Israel has made is that they have probably emboldened the idea of Palestinian statehood and swung international opinion behind it. Palestine surely hasn't got a future as a subjugated region - subjugated by a government and a people that have nothing but intense hatred for them and who don't regard them as equals. Israel could easily win the battle but heavily lose the war.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540255#Comment_121540255

I think anyone who does the right thing would do so without some guy in a dress pontificating from the Bronze Age Goatherders guide to the Galaxy. And no, Netanyahu was never a nice guy, no politician ever is, nor should he have carte blanche to do anything.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540786#Comment_121540786

So if that is the case when would you ever consider no longer supporting Netanyahu's actions in gaza ? It seems that for some posters here the operation should continue until the objective is complete but they also concede that they are waiting for the Israelis to tell them when the objective is complete .

That sounds like they just allow the Israelis to continue as long as they wish, casualties be damned.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540805#Comment_121540805

When the hostages are returned and the rockets stop falling. I've given this answer to that question repeatedly.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540823#Comment_121540823

So you are not waiting for Hamas to concede defeat and leave Gaza? I don't think some of those others in support the operation have the same view. I don't think the IDF can just turn this operation on and off at short notice Say Hamas stop for a month and release the hostages, I don't expect the idf can easily mobilise their reserves to hammer Gaza again if Hamas commences sending rockets their way again.

This is the problem in supporting an operation led by such a bad actor like Netanyahu. You can't tell what his end goal is, or what will make him stop.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540847#Comment_121540847

Let me turn the question around: under what circumstances should Israel try to co-exist with Hamas, a mortal enemy that wants the Jews dead?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540887#Comment_121540887

I don't want them to co exist. But I just want posters to be clear what they support not come out with empty statements like that civilians die in war. I'm not going to support a position where the amount of civilians to die in Gaza is dependent on the goodwill of Netanyahu and Hamas. And if you support this continued operation that is the position you are taking.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540758#Comment_121540758

Yes,an unintended consequence of this war for the likes of Bibi is that he will no longer be able to maintain the status quo... I think the pressure from the American Goverment will be immense given they have isolated themselves on the world stage over this war .

if Bibi, or whoever comes next, tries to do so, then it's inevitable as you say that another militant group will form eventually, assuming the goal of eliminating Hamas can be even achieved in the first place.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539621#Comment_121539621

Sudden Valley, without reservation I utterly condemn violence in any shape or form by anyone against any innocent Men, Women and Children anywhere. With good reason, I'm a big fan of the Geneva Conventions. The comparison I made between Putin and the Israeli's is very valid, whether you think so or not. Putin has literally leveled entire cities in Ukraine, and not only cities, if he gets his way, he will eliminate ALL of Ukraine, its cities. its culture and its people and he and his government has said that. Netanyahu could very well do that too if he wanted, yet he has not done it, why? Now that's an interesting question to my mind.