Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540911#Comment_121540911

Not so fast. Either Israel has to co-exist with Hamas constantly attacking them (as they've been doing since 2006) or they have to fight.

There's no middle ground. Either Israel fights or it effectively surrenders. Under what circumstances should they thus stop fighting?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540941#Comment_121540941

Netanyahu hasn't done that because the international condemnation would be too great not because because he has a good heart. Unlike Russia Israel is affected by international isolation. He can achieve his goal and kill the Palestinians slowly. Its a win win for him at the moment. When will he stop? Who knows as only he can declare when victory is achieved unless Hamas admit defeat and surrender. The civilian in Gazans are in hands of Hamas and Netanyahu and his allies, two sets of bigots.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540954#Comment_121540954

They can fight but not bomb from the air killing civilians willy nilly. Do i believe Netanyahu will stop if Hamas don't surrender? Not in my life I can't support military action carried out by a corrupt and racist politician like Netanyahu who would not think twice about exterminating the Gazans.

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540954#Comment_121540954

Since it's Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Houtis etc. fighting as proxies of Iran what Israel does or the US or the UN in Gaza is probably irrelevant.

None of these Islamic terrorists are not going to surrender long term!

The Iranian regime are under domestic pressure and allies of Russia and probably China all of whom want to provoke as big a retaliation as possible for their own domestic and geopolitical reasons.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539938#Comment_121539938

Naive? Maybe. But the destruction of the Tunnels, or at least denying their use to Hamas / any other factions, Israel will be in a much better position to monitor and control what's happening in Gaza. Sure, they will be hated (nothing new there) and probably a continuation of low-level bombings and shootings, suicide martyrs etc. (for which the IDF will extract a very heavy price) But make no mistake, the IDF will control Hamaz. You will not see any more well-planned attacks like what happened on the 7th. as for Palestinians being forced to leave Gaza, we will have to wait until the fighting stops, and see then.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540964#Comment_121540964

Well every war requires extensive use of air power, this is no different. Also Netanyahu is utterly irrelevant. Hamas would want the Jews dead even if there was a left wing PM in office. And Hamas international supporters would be right behind them. And the Western Left would still be crapping on Israel, calling it all sorts of names and making genocidal chants like "From the River to the Sea" etc.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541043#Comment_121541043

Netanyahu is very relevant as his government will decide when the operation ends. I do think there are bigots on both sides it's just at this moment only the Israeli bigots are killing civilians on a large scale.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541061#Comment_121541061

No Israeli PM could change the underlying reality that Israel has been dealt a very bad hand, so to speak. If it weren't Netanyahu, even if it were someone on the Israeli Left (Israel has had some in their history) they would still be facing the same dire security situation.

The only question is whether Israel should have to engage in these fights with one hand tied behind their back. Given the circumstances, I don't think so.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541083#Comment_121541083

Israel has killed as many children as they have militants ( and even then can we rely on the idf figures for militants killed, how are they calculated?). Even with these great results you are worried about constraints being placed on the IDF methods.

Netanyahu is important and different to a left wing equivalent as he has been shown to be corrupt and dishonest. But the operation and killing will only end when he agrees to it. When in your opinion should the operation end?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541061#Comment_121541061

And who exactly do you think should decide when the war is finished?

There is an objective to a war, when the objective is achieved, the war is over

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541095#Comment_121541095

We know that PM of Israel is largely irrelevant because they had a centre-left wing PM in Ehud Olmert in the mid-late 2000s and (Spoiler alert: this will come as a huge surprise) they had to fight a war against Hamas in the Gaza strip. Plus ca change. Except the 7/Oct/2023 attacks were worse than anything that lead to the other recent wars.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541113#Comment_121541113

So who will tell you when the objective is achieved? Netanyahu. Is he not a corrupt and dishonest person? If you are waiting for him to tell you this then is done you will be waiting a while I suspect. He will kill as many Palestinians as he can get away with. And you will sit silently by. But you are waiting for the objective to be completed.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541117#Comment_121541117

The killings after 7/11 are also way worse. But you have expressed no interest in wanting this to stop. But again when do you think this operation should end?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539362#Comment_121539362

Yes I mentioned the Egyptians among other peoples, including the Jews.

Of course Egyptians were in Egypt originally, and mainly along the Nile Valley at that. More to the point though, they were "ancient" Egyptians, not today's Egyptians who are generally Arab-speaking, with much Arab blood in them, as a result of the Arab invasions I mentioned previously.

(There's a theory that the Coptic minority may be the closest living relatives to the ancient Egyptians. I'm not sure how much proof there is of that.)

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541138#Comment_121541138

The general principle is that when you start a war, the enemy you attacked (i.e. Israel) gets a vote on what happens next. They may want to simply annihilate Hamas or severely degrade their abilities. I have no particular "deadline" in mind.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541242#Comment_121541242

Good to know. Up to Netanyahu I suppose then. Hopefully we don't have to hear from you decrying the immorality of israels enemies then when your position is kill as many as you want, i won't complain.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540964#Comment_121540964

Yet he has defied all comers by stating that he will not stop the war until Hamas is defeated, and likewise, I don't think that the reason he is not carpet bombing is because of public opinion turning against him, because he could not care less about Public Opinion. And most Israelis support him it seems, Oct 7th was Israels Pearl Harbour or Twin Towers moment. In the early hours/days after Oct 7th, I said that Israel was now like a runaway horse, with the bit between its teeth, and its still in the same mode.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541288#Comment_121541288

I as talking about international opinion. He still wants to make deals with Saudi Arabia and doesn't want to lose the support of America. The Israeli public support I would say will stay with him till the very end for his operation,I have no doubt.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541294#Comment_121541294

Yes, and its Israeli public opinion which keeps him in power. And so far, anyway, except for allowing a dribble of aid in, he's not pulling back. In fact, he seems to be increasing the level of bombing and street fighting. So, it would seem that he's not too concerned with world public opinion. Speaking of Saudi Arabia (and most of the surrounding Muslim states) they do not seem too eager to help the Palestinians, aside from castigating Israel. Any suggestion that they take in Palestinian refugees, even temporarily, is met with shock and horror responses. Not to mention the massive death toll of Men Women and Children that has been taken place for several years now in Yemen, practically going unmentioned, which makes a mockery of their condemnation of what's happening in Gaza.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541279#Comment_121541279

My general expectation is that Hamas will - as they've repeatedly made clear - try to kill as many Jews as possible, as long as they exist - and that they will target civilians in particular. In response, I expect Israel will continue trying to target Hamas terrorists, and I'm fine with that.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541367#Comment_121541367

Yes I agree that is hamas objective but if you support the killing with no limit of people in Gaza in pursuit of them are you no better? You would have to be a blind man not to notice they are killing way more civilians than militants in Gaza. You have already stated you wish to set no limits on Israeli operations so do you actually care about civilian deaths?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541366#Comment_121541366

Though in fairness the posters who support israels method here have been in the same thread condemning Saudis bombing of Yemen. What do they call that? Cognitive dissonance?

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541367#Comment_121541367

But Israel are not really trying to hit Hamas targets. They're just launching volleys of ballistics and wiping out swathes of civilians. That they might hit a hamas member is sort of pot luck

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541367#Comment_121541367

I'm no fan of Hamas but their raison d'etre is surely Palestinian statehood, not the destruction of the Israeli state.

They might claim or even state the latter is a major goal, but I would suggest it's more hot air than anything else (Sinn Fein was saying in the 1980s it wanted to see the setting up of a 32 county Marxist republic in Ireland).

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541279#Comment_121541279

aye, sure make up stuff that wasn’t said, attribute to other person. case closed. easy.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541406#Comment_121541406

“hot air” v October 7th. Something amiss with your logic I think.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541423#Comment_121541423

I think he can clarify what he said. What is your position then? You waiting for Netanyahu to decide when the operation should end?

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541242#Comment_121541242

By his logic, Hamas chooses what happens next so given what had been going on in the weeks leading up to Oct 7th. But that's oversimplifying things and par for the course for those supporting Israels continued butchering of women and children

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541406#Comment_121541406

They are constantly saying they want to annihilate Israel and will kill as many Jews as they can. I think you're being overly generous by claiming they don't really mean it.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541442#Comment_121541442

I think it is, with respect, a bit of a silly question. The answer is obvious.

Hamas started the current hostilities and Israel will end them. In the meantime sadly there will be far too many innocent lives lost.

I have said before that I think that whilst Hamas prepared, I think they underestimated how ‘successful’ they would be and therefore the extent to which Israel would react.

This does not mean I am a supporter of innocent lives being lost although, if I don’t give the correct answers to your flowchart of questions no doubt you will label me as such.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541442#Comment_121541442

He/she will die the death of a thousand clarifications if you keep this up.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541603#Comment_121541603

Hopefully hamas will give up at some stage to stop more people being killed as those advocating for the current Israeli operation seem to have no idea when it will end. If you support an operation that is resulting in the death of innocent people you can expect to be challenged on that position.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541440#Comment_121541440

October 7th was a large scale one off terrorist attack on the Israeli side of the border with Gaza - hardly an attempt to topple the Israeli state or government.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541635#Comment_121541635

According to Hamas it is not a one off sadly

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541614#Comment_121541614

It’s not so much support as understanding why from their perspective they want to be rid of Hamas on their doorstep.

dmcdona

Does anyone know how many Hamas combatants are active in Gaza or has IDF posted any numbers?

Presumably, there's no chance of any reinforcements coming in from outside.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541762#Comment_121541762

We can all understand that, no one would want hamas on their doorstep. 130 countries didn't vote for an immediate ceasefire in the UN because they don't support Israel they just think Israel is too reckless in the killing of women and children and want aid to reach Gaza to save innocent lives. Eventually Israel and the supporters of its actions here will have to consider thst perhaps the majority of the world being against their actions is not antisemitism and is to do with the results of its actions.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541635#Comment_121541635

Oct 7th, a large-scale terrorist one off attack on Israel? Not according to Hamas if I remember right. They promise more, until the Israeli's are driven out of Palestine, which is one reason why Israel is engaged in a war with them. And I'd say that many of the Hamas members that have been killed so far, would have been killed in martyrdom attacks. So that will continue, even if or when after Israel decides to call a halt to the bombing.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541083#Comment_121541083

Israel wouldn't be able to sustain this war without the US. They supply the bombs, arms and other ordinance and protect the coastline. If the US pulled away in the morning Israel would be in serious trouble. They talk about being surrounded by enemies but in reality they have made themselves the enemy forever in the region and are more detestable than ever because of the way they have treated the Palestinians since 1948.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541937#Comment_121541937

Talk of "destroying Israel" is clearly hot air - Hamas almost certainly don't believe it, nor does Israel. The regime trying to con people in the West into believing it is fighting for its very survival might have worked in the 1970s and 1980s, but has been exposed as a blatant and malicious lie in the last three months.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542110#Comment_121542110

You don't think they believe they can destroy Israel?

Their incursion made it a long way into Israeli territory and apparently the aim was to link up with the West Bank.

Had they done so it might have been a lot more serious and the conflict would have taken off to.a much greater degree.

They don't have to destroy Israel in a frontal assault. They can simply continue their campaign and try to isolate Israel on the world stage.

Oct7 has been.partially successful and must give them encouragement of greater success down the years to come.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542110#Comment_121542110

On a practical level, I doubt it too, after all Israel do have the bomb, (allegedly) and probably the capabilities of taking most (if not all the middle east with them) Not practical like I said. But, for sure not only Palestinians but in general, most of the Muslim population in the region have expressed their support for the death to Israel brigades. And it's not only an opinion, but they will also convert it into action if they can. And they are not worried about death either, why would they be? When Martyrdom beckons? Since the foundation of the state of Israel, they have been attacked in one form or another, and understandably they are pretty paranoid at this stage about their security. This is merely stating a fact, and not to be taken in any shape or form as an endorsement of Israel's current activity's re Gaza.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542368#Comment_121542368

How can Israel and Netanyahu simultaneously believe Hamas has the capacity to 'destroy Israel', but at the same time firmly believe they will be able to crush and obliterate Hamas in the next months (to the point where there won't be a single Hamas member left alive)? None of this even adds up.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542621#Comment_121542621

Hamas doesn't have the capacity to destroy Israel.

(With a bit more "luck" they might have given it s better shot this time.ie come closer)

But ,it should be obvious that even if they are physically defeated this will only provide a brief respite for Israel and what will follow will likely be a fertile ground for groups like Hamas to recruit support.

Israel will have to navigate that territory to survive.If it fails in that navigation it could be destroyed(and take a lot of others down with it no doubt)

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541973#Comment_121541973

Don't worry, your friends in the US Left are working to change all of that. As we know, US college campuses are becoming hotbeds of anti-Semitism and that will eventually spill out into wider American society. Eventually, that could mean no more US support for Israel, and that in turn would mean that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Islamic Jihad, IS, Al Qaeda etc. can do whatever they want to the Jews. And in that they will have at least the indifference of some on the radical Left.

There's no arguing that Hamas/Iran have played an absolute blinder with their 7/Oct attacks. But they could not have been anywhere near as successful if they didn't have legions of useful idiots championing their cause in the West.

Jewish Students Sheltered Inside College Library During Protest - YouTube

DEI Offices Are Driving Campus Antisemitism | Glenn Loury & Tabia Lee | The Glenn Show (youtube.com)

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542672#Comment_121542672

You have to view what happening now in Palestine in the wider context of how Israel is viewed in the middle east and Islamic world generally, so it's not just Hamas. They are just the tip of the spear.

bnt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542621#Comment_121542621

It's not just Hamas. It's Hezbollah in Lebanon, rattling their sabres. It's the Houthis, hundreds of km away in Yemen yet taking pot shots at ships in the Red Sea that might be heading for Israel. Iran is behind it all, using these smaller local forces as proxies, and discrediting Israel with the world's governments and media is part of the strategy. This is a propaganda war as well as a proxy war, since the Iranian regime knows what will happen if they attack Israel directly.

All these reports of Israeli atrocities ... all true? Who knows? I don't, and I don't believe anyone here knows either. One of those reports from a hospital says that the people there are scared the IDF is going to kill them all ... where do they get that fear? Not from anything the IDF has said or what they've actually done so far on the ground. (Yes, I've seen reports of IDF soldiers being dicks, as soldiers do; they should follow their orders, not dick around in a playground, write crap on shells or whatever.) I've said all along that Israel needs to be held to a higher standard, preferably by themselves, if they want to represent civilisation in the region, and that starts with obeying the rules of war and being seen to obey them.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541774#Comment_121541774

Shelling 2 million people in what is effectively an open air prison and killing thousands is one way to create more

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542740#Comment_121542740

Ah the old antisemitism again, the go-to !! Maybe its just ante murder of women, children and other innocent civilians.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543630#Comment_121543630

132 countries voted to ask Israel for a ceasefire in the UN. Would they claim all those countries are antisemitic? Or that they are against the reckless actions in killing women and children 😕 people can be against israels actions and not antisemitic.

It is as lazy as claiming Hamas with 30k militants are an existential threat to Israel.