Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542740#Comment_121542740

**** hell they really are not becoming hotbeds of antisemitism. Does it exist, yes, but being against the deplorable actions of Israel does not make one an antisemite. The next person who tries this should just piss off as they are not arguing anything in good faith.

Useful idiots on both sides by the way, and considering the narrative is almost exclusively being controlled by Israel it appears theirs are bigger idiots

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543701#Comment_121543701

Tell that to the Jews that had to hide and lock themselves into the library at Cooper Union in New York. As to who is winning the narrative war, it's clear that the "Israel bad" narrative is prevalent. Hamas and their useful idiots are playing a blinder.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543725#Comment_121543725

Well ten minutes of protest in which the new York police where present and nothing of note happened according to them.

It's easy to record a few minutes of protest and frame it as some evidence in the rise of antisemitism across the countries colleges, but that should be called out for the complete and utter bullshit it actually is.

I think I'll go with the NYPDs thoughts on it rather than the useful idiots on here and those that are deliberately framing very isolated and incidents and some sort of proof of absolutely nothing

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/nypd-stresses-cooper-union-students-were-not-barricaded-inside-library-during-pro-palestinian-rally/

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543725#Comment_121543725

They had to hide in a library

Meanwhile Palestinian children are trying to dodge 2000 lb bombs, the equivalent of 2 nuclar bombs has been dropped on Gaza in the last 8 weeks.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543823#Comment_121543823

And they didn't really have to hide. They were already there. They locked themselves in and piss all happened.

Being pro Palestine in the face of all that Israel and it's official policy is doing to ordinary Palestinians in both gaza and west bank does not make one a hamas supporter.

Being against much of what Israel has done both pre Oct 7th (illegal settlement, interment, humiliation, intimidation,, etc etc) and since does not make one antisemitic either.

We can separate them out. But nope, must be an antisemite. Must wheel out that lazy narrative and press on the collective guilt of people.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543725#Comment_121543725

No it's definitely Israel controlling, and it's nearly complete nonsense and so **** easy to see through it doesn't deserve any attention for the most part.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543725#Comment_121543725

Ah Jaysus ?? Imagine that - having to lock yourself in a library !! How awful !!

Meanwhile women and children are having huge bombs dropped on them in a REFUGEE CAMP when they were told to go there for safety BY the ISRAELIS.

Thelonious Monk

People going on about Hamas wanting to kill as many jews as possible should have a look on social media to see countless amounts of Israelis saying the same about Palestinians.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543701#Comment_121543701

The majority of Jewish people in the West are middle class (or even higher) and well educated - not exactly the type of people you would expect to be facing rampant racism and discrimination.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543963#Comment_121543963

Must be true, it's on Social Media.

blackcard

A side issue for both sides at the moment but what are the long term economic impacts for both sides?

A lot of Israeli males are on army duties, productivity must be badly affected, the cost of arms must be extremely high, tourism must be on its knees and will take a long time to recover, not sure if there is boycotting of Israeli goods, there is going to be a lot of money required for security measures going forward. I don't know what the economy was like before the war started? I presume that money will come from the US and expats.

For Palestinians, it is a matter of just trying to survive. I can't imagine there is any business surviving. Infrastructure is destroyed, hospitals bombed, housing gutted, schools flattened, water and electricity supply in tatters. I don't know what economic activity there was in Gaza before this kicked off. You would think for the forseeable future, it is going to be dependent on outside assistance for food, to build housing etc. but poverty is going to exist for a long, long time

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543985#Comment_121543985

Does that include pro Israel accounts on social media?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544177#Comment_121544177

Sure does!

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543892#Comment_121543892

And as sure as God made Green Apple's that advice was well heeded by Hamas. Waving flags and shouting " death to the Jews. From Sea to Sea, Palestine will be free" is all very fine, in protests and demonstrations etc. until you have to meet the Israeli's face to face. Since the very beginning, Hamas have buried themselves deep in civilian society, and then scream to the press " Israel are Mass Murderers, look at them bombing and killing in the safe zones " while conveniently forgetting that it was Hamas who started it by going to the safe zones themselves. This has been Hamas SOP from the beginning.

Furze99

So Israel are now warning dire consequences on their other neighbours. Who will stop them in their tracks?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544189#Comment_121544189

Exactly and Israel and the USA have known this full well. One can only conclude that there is no consideration at all, as far as the IDF are concerned all residents of Gaza are members of Hamas or potential members or sympathisers - so they feel justified to slaughter as many as possible.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543892#Comment_121543892

It is, until you have a quick look at the statistics for gun crime in the US. Solidary men, on the flimsiest of excuses, killing multiples of civilians with military grade weapons, and for sure, Israeli killing Palestinians in Gaza, is far from being a Flimsy excuse. Remember the Boston Marathon Bomber? Born in the US, but parents came from Chechnya. If I were in the same situation as you outlined, I'd be damn worried too. What do you think Tayto, that such an attack (or multiples) will take place in 2024?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543839#Comment_121543839

Israel behaves like a country that has been under attack since it's creation and is surrounded by mortal enemies because ... it has been under attack constantly since its creation and is surrounded by mortal enemies. Some entity or another has been plotting to annihilate them continuously since 1947, and their strategic geography is beyond horrifying. It seems to me that these realities are what informs their thinking.

And I don't regard it as a co-incidence, at least not in full, that campaigns like BDS aim to do economically what others have (so far) failed to do by other means, that is, undermine and weaken Israel to the point where it can be obliterated by its enemies.

As to the anti-Semitism argument, the fact remains that nearly half the worlds Jews - and the largest group in all - live in Israel or the Disputed Territories. So to me, the dilemma is a simple one - you're either with them, or you're with the people who want to wipe them out.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544314#Comment_121544314

You can be against the actions of Israel now and not be against the Jewish people in general or antisemitic. I am not a supporter of the bds movement so its not every is on one side or the other, pro or anti Israel.

You are throwing the phrase antisemitic so freely in this thread that you as may as well be calling people woke. The parameters for being antisemitic are so fuzzy now that if support bds you can be accused as being antisemitic.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544189#Comment_121544189

I would like to see your proof of that instead of this same o; same ol all the time. Someone said earlier that Hamas were all underground while the civilian population were left above ground to suffer. Now you are saying that Hamas are above ground hiding behind the civilians. Let's see some proof or is the Israeli propaganda changing to suit their style of bombing?

And another thing. This did not start on Oct 7th. The Palestinians have been treated brutally for many years and Oct 7th was a brutal retaliation by them. Completely over the top and completely wrong and should never have happened, none the less a symptom of being treated like 'human animals' for many years.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544236#Comment_121544236

Far too much gun crime in the US and far too easy to own guns. '' I don't Like Monday's '' over and over again. Presidents and Governments too scared to change the laws on gun ownership.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544360#Comment_121544360

Ahhhhhnd there it is. Spelt out for everyone to see.

Israel deserved the terrorist attack. An extremely common belief, that we have seen repeated from the 8th Oct. Wouldn't have been said if it happened in any other country.

Do you feel the same about all terrorist attacks?

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544425#Comment_121544425

That's not what is said here, but it has to be out to bed that this started on Oct 7th. It escalated on Oct 7th but in the 2 months prior Israel illegally settled more land and displaced more Palestinian people than it had in the previous 40 years combined.

Let's call a spade a spade here, and call out their aggression too, an aggression that has been allowed happen to settle wealthy, middle class people from the Bronx.

Fuck that

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544425#Comment_121544425

The poster did say 711 was completely wrong. Clearly. So it would be like saying 911 was a reaction to previous American actions in the Middle East. It is being factual not supporting the action.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544425#Comment_121544425

How much oppression would you take before you fought back?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544425#Comment_121544425

I have to disagree, the OP didn't say the attack was deserved. There's far more blatant 'death to Israel' posted here, the OP's post wasn't one of them.

nacho libre

I fear we are close to a second front opening up in Lebanon. If that happens all bets are off. No doubt the Americans will be putting pressure on the Lebanese, but their army is next to useless. So even if they wanted to they probably can't take on and defeat Hezbollah. Lebanon has little good options to choose from in this scenario. Maybe Hezbollah can be persuaded to move north of the river as per the agreement after the last war if they realise the alternative is a full scale war with Israel . Although that's probably very unlikely.

Wolf359f

You only have to see what's going on in the West Bank to understand when people say Oct 7th didn't occur in a vacuum. Maybe one day there will be an attack on Israel launched from the West Bank and people, like on here will be surprised it happened all of a sudden.

What did Israel do to deserve it etc.....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/28/first-thing-un-report-condemns-israeli-treatment-of-palestinians-in-west-bank

That's 300 dead in the West Bank. Surely the people in the West Bank have a right to defend themselves against war crimes? Hate breeds hate. It's going to be just a vicious circle that goes around and around with higher death tolls each time.

Thelonious Monk

If I was from the UK and saw how spineless Keir Starmer has been on this issue I would have no idea who to vote for it the next election. He has brought shame on the Labour Party. Bring back Jezza.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544511#Comment_121544511

Have any settlers from the West Bank been charged by Israel for their attacks on Palestinians?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544450#Comment_121544450

In Gaza?

dmcdona

An Israeli military official has said that the use of the wrong munition led to "extensive collateral damage" in strikes targeting the Maghazi refugee camp on 24 December.

According to the Hamas-run health ministry, at least 86 people were killed by Israeli air strikes on the camp on Sunday, according to the UN, and that number could still rise.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67831997?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=658d98e9b255e96a9e4bb6e0%26What%20do%20we%20know%20about%20the%20Maghazi%20strike%3F%262023-12-28T15%3A52%3A50.947Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:30ff5f81-db9f-4129-9cfc-d25e2aaf4ec7&pinned_post_asset_id=658d98e9b255e96a9e4bb6e0&pinned_post_type=share

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544536#Comment_121544536

He has learnt well from Tony Blair in positioning himself as Tory lite to appeal to floating voters while hanging on to the traditional vote.

As part of this process he recently praised Thatcher. He is trying to be all things to everyone at the moment. He is just lucky Sunak is in power at the moment. He is a great asset for the Labour Party. Just as Corbyn was for the Conservatives.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544461#Comment_121544461

Israel left Gaza in the capable hands of Hamas 20 years ago.....

if anyone is oppressing the Palestinian people, it's been Hamas.

dmcdona

This also from the BBC. Were the other 340 IDF soldiers killed in the Hamas attack of the 7th?

More than 500 Israeli troops have been killed since the war against Hamas began on 7 October, Israel's military has said.

It added more than 160 IDF soldiers had been killed since its ground offensive inside Gaza started in late October. Some 900 soldiers have been wounded since that operation began - with troops engaging in close combat with Hamas fighters.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121538053#Comment_121538053

But the same thing happened in Dresden and Hamburg during WW2: civilians do die during conflict. Killing more civilians doesn't necessarily make that side wrong, just more efficient. Unless you think the Nazis should have been allowed to continue unopposed because otherwise innocent Germans would be killed?

dmcdona

It looks like the West Bank could boil over.

BBC:

Israeli soldiers have raided several money exchange premises in Ramallah and other cities in the occupied West Bank, seizing millions of shekels.

Israel claims the businesses are providing funds to groups like Hamas, a proscribed terror organisation in many Western nations. 

The Palestinian news agency Wafa reported that troops "arrested several of [the exchange] owners, and seized money from their safes after blowing them open".

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544566#Comment_121544566

No, they just put them in a crammed open air prison camp, took away their ability to do international trade, took away their ability to fish in their own waters, do mineral exploration routinely harassed those entering Israel for genuine reasons.

We can't separate what how Israel treats Palestinians in west bank from what's going on in gaza either. It's 2 sides of the same coij and if you want to turn a blind eye to decades of their illegal actions go ahead, you're another one who isn't here to debate anything in good faith

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544360#Comment_121544360

I stated my position on the tunnels way back, when all the rage was its just Israeli propaganda, look at this, look at that. The Israelis claim that Hamas had their headquarters directly under the Hospital, and showing a motorbike as proof, which was quickly debunked as Israeli propaganda. As well as was every other Israeli "Proof" of Hamas occupation. My position back then was wait and see, and since then I have been proved right. Pictures have emerged of tunnels of very advanced design and manufacture. And proved beyond a doubt that Hamas ran their organization and operations from the tunnels. They publicly announced that the tunnels were built by Hamas for protection of Hamas, and they had no responsibility for Civilians, which was the responsibility of the administration. They forgot to mention that they (Hamas) had stolen all the funds that were to be used for civilian administration, medical, social welfare etc. and used it to build the tunnels and purchase armaments. So much for protecting Palestinians. But now since the IDF chased them out of the tunnels (ongoing process) and they had to move overground, and of course exposed to IDF military so yes, they are now heavily merged with civilians. As for the Palestinian justification for Oct 7th. the buildup of resentment against Israel for all the occupation wrongs over the years, which resulted in and is being used as justification for the events of 7th Oct. There can be no justification for the horrors perpetrated by Hamas on that day. And make no mistake, Hamas knew full well what they were unleashing on Palestinians with that attack. And believe me Tayto, the repercussions of Oct 7th, like the ripples in a pool of water, will reverberate around the world. This story is only in the baby stages yet. It may ae been born in Palestine, but it will travel the world.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544591#Comment_121544591

The bombing of civilians and the firestorm in Hamburg etc have been widely criticised since they happened. There was no need for that ****.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544591#Comment_121544591

Ah ffs, why these comparisons with WW2. There was no smart bombs, laser and GPS guided bombs/missiles and shells etc.... It did have a Holocaust, 2 nukes being dropped, mass firebomb attacks on civilian cities but despite all that, civilian casualties amounted to 57% of all deaths, while in Gaza it's 77%

No wonder people think the IDF is targeting civilians.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544591#Comment_121544591

you said: "A huge number of civilians are being killed in Gaza. It's not at all clear to me why that's Israel's rather than Hamas' fault."

That is what I replied to.

You seem to be stuck in the 1940s - that was 80 years ago. A different time, a very different war and different weaponry. We are now in the 21st century with weaponry that is much more accurate.

Whataboutery will not solve this conflict.

Do you think Israel should continue its indiscriminate bombing of a civilian population?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544580#Comment_121544580

What about the West Bank?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544580#Comment_121544580

The Hamas that Israel supported and funded so they would win the election.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544605#Comment_121544605

Are you clapping yourself on the back here? No one disputed Hamas has an extensive tunnel network. What was in dispute was whether they had a command center under the Al Shifa Hospital. I don't think the evidence presented for that was convincing. Ehud Olmert gave an interview where he stated the main operational center for Hamas maybe in Khan Yunis. He also stated the top leadership is likely hiding out there in tunnels . It wouldn't surprise me if tunnels running from the North to the very south of the strip are discovered in the months to come. We may also hear about leading figures being cornered in certain tunnels.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544605#Comment_121544605

So what justification does Israel have for the decades of abuse against the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank?

I agree with you - there is no excuse for such retribution. But that applies to both sides.

You're right about this being in the baby stages. What repercussions do you think will come of this?

I really can't see anything good coming out of this for anyone bar the arms manufacturers.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544425#Comment_121544425

Ah the poster who said that the Gardai strip prisoners on the street is mixed up again and can't read properly. It happened in Israel and is now happening in Gaza. Terrorist attacks from two sets of terrorists. And yes all terrorist attacks are wrong.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544599#Comment_121544599

Here is just one video of the "crammed open air prison camp". Is that what it looks like?

https://twitter.com/khalidi79397/status/1737844161414643826

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544702#Comment_121544702

No. Hamas are a terrorist organisation.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544729#Comment_121544729

Ask the relatives of the dead Gazan children and they'll tell you. The relatives of the dead doctors, nurses, nuns, reporters, ambulance drivers etc will agree too.