Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Strazdas

It's unclear if Hamas have a particular problem with women. It's believed that around 25% of people killed on October 7th were female - the fact that any were murdered at all is an outrage obviously, but it doesn't necessarily point to them being targeted because of their gender. At least 40 OAPs were murdered, suggesting those doing the killing were shooting at literally anyone they came across.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560583#Comment_121560583

Far from unclear. Screamingly obvious. Shooting women in the back of the head after raping them seems like a problem with women. Posting videos about it too. As was the mutilation of the genitals. And the orders from their commanders to rape: " the Shin Bet security service has released recordings of at least two investigations of Nukhba terrorists who were asked whether they had been given specific orders to abuse women and children. Referring to the sex crimes, one of them said that the aim was “to soil them, to rape them"

(https://archive.is/RIfq0)

Too bad the UN dragged its heels condemning this. But, of course, Israel.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559250#Comment_121559250

But I was quoting the other poster's bit and wondering what HE meant.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560657#Comment_121560657

In what way are women and children in Gaza responsible for any of the above? And yet the regime and its supporters seem totally to be using those events as justification for the onslaught against Gazan civilians.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560657#Comment_121560657

Most of the posters here that abhor the mass slaughter of innocent civilians in Gaza equally condemn the abhorrent actions of Hamas.

It seems to me that posters who "support" the actions of Israel are incapable of a balanced view. Your recent posts on the rapes perpetrated on October 7th seem to point to the fact that Hamas hate women, they are monsters, and that the UN are to blame for dragging their heals in condemning these actions.

So, on the basis of a balanced view, do you condemn IDF rape of Palestinians? I posted a link to the Safsaf massacre. Here's another link:

Do you condemn IDF rape of Palestinians? Do you accept that IDF and Hamas, as regards rape, are as culpable as each other? Or not?

https://twitter.com/fbhutto/status/1732010918827929768?lang=en

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560281#Comment_121560281

The Palestinian women are not being treated very well by the Israelis.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561170#Comment_121561170

The OP I initially replied to, hasn't condemned Hamas at all, as far as I can tell from its posting history. Started out on 13 Oct decrying Israel's behaviour, not a peep about Hamas.

I condemn the actions of Hamas in this war that they initiated. I always have.

As for the 1948 atrocities, if indeed rapes happened (though, it doesn't seem like they were part of the policy of the IDF at the time, that's no excuse but rape is indeed part of Hamas's policy as I showed in the article above.) And shooting defenseless prisoners is indeed a war crime, something Hamas has in abundance in the war they initiated. Interesting that Israel has spent a fair amount of time investigating these allegations - will Hamas do the same for their rapists? I can answer that for you: NO.

Do you equally condemn massacres of Israelis in 1948? There are known to have been several:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre

IDF prosecutes rapists in their ranks. Hamas cheers them on. I'd say Hamas are far more culpable, despite what some Rabbis might say. As awful as it sounds, it seems like if IDF has raped Palestinian women, they weren't slaughtered afterwards. Unlike by Hamas.

Note the term from the article about the rapes by Hamas. They used 'soil them.' WTF is that? Some medieval bullsh1t phrase, gives you a pretty good idea where their thinking is at, though I doubt any of use needed to know that.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561344#Comment_121561344

I think one poster here a few hundred pages back said we "shouldn't focus on Hamas." Would have to dig it up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560918#Comment_121560918

In what way were the women and children of Berlin (a city which suffered nearly nightly air raids in the latter stages of WWII) responsible for the actions of their government between 1938-1945?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561442#Comment_121561442

The raids on Hamburg and Dresden are now understood to have constituted war crimes and to have been militarily unnecessary.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561476#Comment_121561476

The Allies didn't just bomb Hamburg and Dresden. Bombing raids over German cities were a nightly occurrence in the latter parts of WWII.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561344#Comment_121561344

From the above, I'll take it that you do not condemn IDF rapes.

As for "if indeed rapes happened", and "weren't slaughtered afterwards", are you really cutting IDF some slack?

And as for Hamas not investigating - IDF investigated Safsaf but the report was never released. Sounds the same as "not investigating" to me.

So, I'll assume you'll continue to point out Hamas atrocities without acknowledging IDF atrocities and avoid taking a balanced view.

For Palestinian deaths in general, prior to the current conflict, the death ratio of Palestinians to Israelis was 22:1. For every Israeli killed, 22 Palestinians have been killed.

On the current conflict, the ratio is about 18:1.

riffmongous

More calls for ethnic cleansing from government ministers

"Israel should discuss the revival of civilian settlements within the Gaza Strip as part of its planning for the enclave once Hamas rule is toppled, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich said Saturday night, while denying that any of Gaza’s approximately 2 million residents were innocent and calling for Israel to “encourage voluntary emigration” from the territory.

Speaking to Channel 12 news, the leader of the hard-right Religious Zionism party also doubled down on his refusal to transfer tax payments to the Palestinian Authority over concerns that the money will find its way to Gaza, sloughing off reported pressure from the United States on the matter and pushing back against insinuations that he and others had propped up Hamas as a convenient foil.

We will be in security control, and we will need there to be civil [control],” Smotrich said. “I’m for completely changing the reality in Gaza, having a conversation about settlements in the Gaza Strip… We’ll need to rule there for a long time… If we want to be there militarily, we need to be there in a civilian fashion.”

Under pressure from Smotrich, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Thursday canceled a scheduled war cabinet debate on shaping post-war Gaza, and said he would hold the discussion instead in the larger security cabinet. Smotrich is not a member of the tight-knit war cabinet, but he and fellow far-right leader Itamar Ben Gvir, minister of national security, do sit in the security cabinet.

We want to encourage willful emigration, and we need to find countries willing to take them in,” he said.

In an Army Radio interview on Sunday morning, Smotrich returned to that point: “We need to encourage immigration from there. If there were 100,000-200,000 Arabs in the Strip and not two million, the whole conversation about the day after [the war] would be completely different,” he said. “They want to leave. They have been living in a ghetto for 75 years and are in need.”

He also told Army Radio: “I don’t think there’s anyone in Israel who doesn’t want to see Jewish settlements everywhere.”"

riffmongous

Hm

"Smotrich said he still agreed with and repeated a quote from a 2015 interview in which he said, “In the game of delegitimization… the Palestinian Authority is a burden and Hamas is an asset.” He claimed that the quote had been intentionally misinterpreted by critics as him saying the terror group was positive for Israel."

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561491#Comment_121561491

In many cases, military installations were frequently the target and not civilians per se. What marked Dresden out in particular is that there no military targets of note and the city was full of refugees - the Allies knew full well they were bombing a civilian city i.e. the civilians themselves were the target.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561705#Comment_121561705

And I agree that specifically targeting civilians is bad, and shouldn't happen. But Israel has a terrible problem in how to focus on Hamas given both the population density of Gaza and the propensity of Hamas for disguising themselves as civilians and using human shields. It is nevertheless true though that Hamas is the government of Gaza, and have a similar relationship with the territory as other belligerents in more "symmetrical" wars throughout history.

The Allies in WWII for example bombed Berlin just about every night and many other cities across Germany. Same in Japan. That likely wasn't fun for the civilians who lived in those cities, but it had been an accepted part of war especially after the Blitzkreig.

I only want Israel to be held to the same standard as for example the WWII Allies - i.e. permitted to do whatever they have to do to target Hamas people and capabilities, and protect their own people. Which as we saw on New Years, is still a pressing need.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561762#Comment_121561762

I only want Israel to be held to the same standard as for example the WWII Allies 

By that rational you'd be fine with the dropping a nuke on gaza? Because the US did that twice in WW2.

What the allies did to germany and japan was horrific. They firebombed cities. They couldn't manage to target anyone so they targeted entire cities. What they did was certainly a warcrime but because they won with unconditional surrenders, they were never prosecuted. They used actual nuclear weapons on cities filled with civilians. I realise that at this point, someone will reply with "but what about germany/japan". I'm not saying they were saints. I'm not saying they were blameless. they were horrific regimes who caused untold suffering. That doesn't mean it's ok to bomb a city filled with civilians. Especially when it made very little difference to the war effort.

The firebombing of german cities was so bad that civilians died in bunkers because the air was sucked out. In some bunkers bodies weren't even found because the air was super heated and they could only estimate how many people were killed based on the quantity of ash they found on the floor of the bunker. Civilians outside were found sticking out of the roads because it was so hot it caused roads to melt and their bodies sank into the road. The allies dropped delayed fuse bombs to hit first responders.

In hamburg in one night, 18,000 people were killed. There was a firestorm that covered 21 square kilometers, went 300ft into the air, had 240km winds and temperatures of 800c.

That's the standard you want for israel? Because I'm not sure you know how bad the allies were in WW2.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561442#Comment_121561442

Whatabout will solve it.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562080#Comment_121562080

I don't think people were or are in favour of what the Saudis are doing in Yemen or what Assad has done in Syria, and have marched against thise perpetrated those crimss. Do people selectively decide what they want to get upset about? Yes definitely. You can even see this in this thread where people will deplore the killings on 7 October and say nought about the killings of kids in the last two months.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562184#Comment_121562184

Plus they don't appreciate that the killings and crimes have been going on for many years at a ratio of 22;1and didn't just start on Oct 7th.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562199#Comment_121562199

They have been pretty clear in their position I suppose. Innocents must decide until Israel decides it is done, and they will support them whatever happens.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562213#Comment_121562213

Only the innocents on one side matter. The others are just collateral damage it seems.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561512#Comment_121561512

Seriously? Rapes from 75 years ago matter as much as what went on in October? Sheesh. Pointless to debate with such but whatever. I do condemn IDF rapes.

Will Hamas be investigating their own policy being executed? What do you think? I doubt it. Do you allege rape is part of IDF policy? And mutilation, too?

The killings as part of the war will stop when Hamas returns the hostages and stops shooting rockets.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562295#Comment_121562295

The killing of women and children will continue as long as Hamas exists. To destroy Hamas is the objective of the Israelis not just to get back the hostages and stop the rockets.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562337#Comment_121562337

We hold them to a standard of a western nation. But what standard we hold them is irrelevant. Either you think they are killing too many civilians in this conflict or not? What do you think?

If you don't object to their current methods it would explain well why you want people to focus their ire on the Saudis or Syrian government instead.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562307#Comment_121562307

According to the regime's propaganda, almost the whole of the Gazan population are Hamas supporters. Anyone who supports this is pretty much endorsing the destruction of the entire enclave and its people.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562139#Comment_121562139

Yes, IIRC it was you who said we should not focus on Hamas. Which is a really bizarre comment, it would be like saying in WWII that the Allies should not focus on the Nazis but instead focus on German collateral damage. A really weird way to discuss what is very clearly a fight to the death.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121480456#Comment_121480456

And were the Jews launching terrorist attacks on other people from their stetls?

Or is this just another example of false equivalence and whataboutery?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562596#Comment_121562596

Hamas has around 25k militants - Israel has a heavily armed military of 500k (including reservists) and has an army, navy and air force.

nacho libre

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0102/1424484-beirut-drone-strike/

I doubt we will see this kind of thing happening in Qatar

Sandor Clegane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562295#Comment_121562295

Israel will never stop killing, not until the whole Gaza enclave has been absorbed, they have no interest in a two state solution, Hamas or no Hamas, they'll continue to steal land and expand.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562677#Comment_121562677

To be honest you shouldnt have to answer such a ridiculous idea Anyone serious knows that Hamas could not destroy israel, not in a million years. To the death is only a possibility for the Gazans at the moment.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562677#Comment_121562677

And they are justified in using their full force to defend themselves and to prevent another 7/10 by any means necessary.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562716#Comment_121562716

This is disputed by many analysts - they believe that the onslaught on Gaza and its civilians cannot be construed as 'self defence'.

An analogy would have been the British Army deciding to flatten West Belfast or the Bogside at the height of the Troubles, supposedly with the aim of eradicating the IRA,

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562382#Comment_121562382

says standard is irrelevant then seeks to apply standard…

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562737#Comment_121562737

I meant i had no standard s different to israel vs saudi. What standard do you have for the war then? Or are you just going to snipe from the sidelines?

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562730#Comment_121562730

And some other experts claim the opposite. In the end it's Israel's duty to protect their people by whatever means they see fit as to be used as self defense.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562751#Comment_121562751

I think that is the minority view given 130 countries voted against Israels current methods. Maybe because their method are not good at protecting innocent civilians

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562751#Comment_121562751

And some other experts claim Israel can't claim self defense when they are attacked by a population who they have under occupation.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562771#Comment_121562771

It's been pretty darn good, considering the odds against Israel. Part of why 7/10 was so shocking.

And, well, countries voting against Israel is a thing. It's a popularity contest, Israel's never going to win one of those.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562773#Comment_121562773

I must've missed where Israel occupied Gaza. However, that's likely to be the reality soon enough.

Sudden Valley

Pretty darn good? What constitutes pretty darn bad for you in terms of civilian deaths to militants killed?

At some stage the supporters of Israel will have to accept that the rest of the world are not jerks and they have crossed the line. I can't imagine you would blindly state the same with regards to the popularity of Russias action in Ukraine.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562773#Comment_121562773

Considering that zero of these experts were killed, raped and beheaded in 7/10 attacks I would be inclined to trust what Israel decides it's self defense.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562794#Comment_121562794

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/

many prominent international institutions, organizations and bodies—including the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, UN General Assembly (UNGA), European Union (EU), African Union, International Criminal Court (ICC) (both Pre-Trial Chamber I and the Office of the Prosecutor), Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch—as well as international legal experts and other organizations, argue that Israel has occupied Palestinian territories including Gaza since 1967.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562812#Comment_121562812

So you want the Israeli government to do your thinking on the matter. Whatever they decide you are 100 % behind them?

I can't imagine anyone supporting the Irish government on domestic matters 100 percent on any matter.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562814#Comment_121562814

I'd say you need to take a good long look at that article. Some experts agree, some don't, and nothing's been resolved.

Should Israel station military there and impose 'martial law' of some sort, the situation will change.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562706#Comment_121562706

Except they're continuing to attack Israel and have made it clear they will continue to do so. I.E. it's a fight to the death.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562730#Comment_121562730

The IRA-UK war and the Hamas-Israel war are not alike in any way. The IRA were never in government in any country or territory anywhere, and their dispute with the UK was never a fight to the death. Even if the IRA had been militarily successful beyond their wildest dreams, the sole outcome of that would have been the removal of UK authority from Northern Ireland. They never wanted to annihilate the British people or drive all the Brits into the sea from Britain.

Hamas on the other hand have made it clear that they want Israel to cease to exist in full and that they will kill any Jew they can anywhere to make that happen, and they are the governing authority of Gaza.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562801#Comment_121562801

Well, imagine if there was no Iron Dome? Israel's done pretty well defending themselves. As for what's a number, I don't have one. My conditions are, stop shooting rockets and return the hostages. Whatever gets to that. Hamas controls the number killed, they could, of course, sue for peace.

The rest of the world aren't jerks, for sure, but a lot of it is, like Ireland's silly pandering to Palestine. Let's import a few hundred thousand refugees from Gaza and see how the tune changes.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562295#Comment_121562295

You think rapes of 75 years ago are pointless to debate?

And yet you wish to use the massacre of Israelis in exactly the same year as the Safsaf rapes a debating point? Seriously?

As for the return of hostages, I'd say the Israeli attack on Beirut today has pretty much sentenced the hostages in Gaza to death.

So, it seems you're happy for the entire Gaza population to be wiped out but you're outraged at rape?

OK...

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562868#Comment_121562868

I never see the point of posters taking a swipe at ireland particularly. We are one of 130 countries, we don't lead the world in being against Israelis actions now.

Yours and Israelis objective are not the same is my point , your objectives are not aligned. They may achieve your objective but will continue killing until they somehow figure they have destroyed Hamas.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562596#Comment_121562596

It was not me.