Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

amandstu

Israel outlines its plan after the war is ended

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67888794

"Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant has outlined proposals for the future governance of Gaza once the war between Israel and Hamas is over.

There would, he said, be limited Palestinian rule in the territory.

Hamas would no longer control Gaza and Israel would retain overall security control, he added."

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573201#Comment_121573201

In the original Arabic the second line is “Palestine will be Arab”.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570108#Comment_121570108

Sigh..... (because you seem to like that word)

Read what I posted. It's well known that many victims were buried without any autopsy. Many of the alleged rape victims were buried without any forensic evidence being taken. I'm not denying that rape/sexual assault occurred. I'm saying that the Israeli government shot themselves in the foot when they allowed victims to be buried before a proper investigation had taken place.

The vast majority of the evidence that crimes took place are the statements of witnesses who claimed to have seen it take place or the aftermath. But in any criminal care witness statements are the least reliable types of evidence. For anyone to claim that no sexual assaults took place every single one of those witnesses would have to be lying. I think that's highly unlikely, close to impossible because of the volume. But the lack of forensic evidence, autopsies, photographs, DNA swabs etc means that if it were an actual criminal case, it would be thrown out of any court.

NGO's and groups that deal with violence against women have said that Israel have provided very little evidence to back up the claims of widespread assaults. This just hurts the israeli claims.

I mentioned Ukraine because there were loads of sexual assaults committed by russian troops. Every single victim is documented. Every bit of forensic evidence that can be gotten is gathered and saved. That's the way this should be done.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573737#Comment_121573737

And are you sure that “every piece of forensic evidence” was gathered in the first three days of the Ukraine war?

Or are you seriously comparing a months-long strategy with what happened in the immediate aftermath of the initial attack?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573737#Comment_121573737

"NGO's and groups that deal with violence against women have said that Israel have provided very little evidence to back up the claims of widespread assaults. This just hurts the israeli claims."

Israel have provided very little evidence because Israel has very little evidence.

hoodie6029

Listening to todayfm yesterday in the way to work. The top of the hour news put an an academic about the recent massacre in Iran. He speculated that and paraphrasing here ‘ Israel doesn’t carry out assassinations like this but if they have done this act to target innocent civilians then this will destabilise the whole region’

I actually shouted at the radio ‘What the actual f…? That is pure speculation.’

Who put that on the air? You might as well put me on saying Elvis could’ve carried out this attack, it’d be as accurate as what was broadcast. Whatever people think of Israel, it is not on to pin any act against Arabs or Muslims on them with zero evidence. Even worse that a news agency would broadcast this reckless opinion.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573872#Comment_121573872

I don't think Elvis would have the same record of either rhetoric, threats, or actual attacks against Iran or Iranians compared to the Israelis record though. So he would probably be further down the list of suspects to be fair.

It also probably unlikely that other countries base their major policy decisions, or declarations of war, based on interviews on todayfm.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573737#Comment_121573737

Again, (sigh...) read the Haaretz article I provided you. Circumstances and laws required swift burials, and the area in question wasn't secured either. There is testimony from witnesses to the rapes, as well as a few survivors. If anything it's better documented than what happened in Russia, especially when the work in Russia to document the events could take place after the occupying force had left.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/04/middleeast/sexual-assault-october-7-israel-witness-int/index.html

The Israeli government did not 'shoot itself in the foot.' The crimes are well documented, Hamas is guilty of horrific sexual violence. Just let it go, take you shots at the Israeli government from other directions.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573794#Comment_121573794

Aaron Mate of the grayzone. Another Hamasnik.

Why hasn't the UN started investigations? The Haaretz article I posted explains what happened in great detail, but deny away, send your daughters to the next Rave in Gaza, they'll be fine.

(https://archive.is/RIfq0)

Might be hard to find rape victims that are still alive. This was Hamas, after all, and they documented shooting them and their commanders urged them to 'soil them.'

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573969#Comment_121573969

Got a question, gave an answer. Get over yourself.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573785#Comment_121573785

Every bit of evidence was gathered as soon as they could. That's the point. If they could have gathered it earlier, they would have. They take evidence gathering seriously. The israelis did zero evidence gathering. No autopsies, no documenting of injuries, no dna swabs, nothing. That's shameful.

You could literally present the men who committed the rapes to the israeli police/military and there's not a scrap of evidence documented to say that they did it or in many cases to document that it even happened.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573971#Comment_121573971

So the Haaretz article you post is correct but the Haaretz article anyone else posts is incorrect?

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574098#Comment_121574098

the israelis won't have any problem manufacturing evidence, of that you can be sure.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573347#Comment_121573347

That seems to be more Gallant's suggestion rather than the actual plan but at least it sounds much better than what's been coming out of other prominent ministers recently, let's see what the response to it is.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573958#Comment_121573958

That's an eye witness. Read what I said. The israeli government didn't document any physical evidence. That guy could be lying. Like I said, with so many reporting it, I don't believe they could all be lying. Sexual assaults happened but there's no evidence except witnesess and that's the worst kind of evidence.

I finally got to read the article you provided (Archive wouldn't load yesterday and the other link is paywalled for me)

“Questions are asked like: Is there or isn’t there semen? Was there or wasn’t there a rape kit? Those same female jurists with international reputations who are conducting this discussion apparently do not have a basic understanding of international law. International law does not talk the language of the individual case. My call to them is to look beyond those denial mechanisms. You are facing a bunch of respected women and telling them that shocking crimes were committed here. Am I the one who needs to provide the evidence for the terrorists’ deeds? What kind of travesty is it that they are imposing the burden of proof on me?

That's the woman who's leading the collection of evidence about sexual crimes comitted on the day of the attacks. The bold is mine. Yes, she does need to provide evidence. She's standing up and saying that crimes are committed. She does need to present evidence to support her accusations. And the people who she's responding to there are women who work for NGO's that specialize in gender based violence. They know what they're asking for. It's their job to do this. And it should be the job of the woman who's collecting evidence to actually collect evidence, search for more evidence and present it to the world.

She does say where they're getting their evidence.

Material is being gathered from a large number of sources. “We are collecting materials of every sort – pictures, audio files, videos, testimonies and newspaper reports,” says Dr. Sarai Aharoni, head of the Gender Studies Program at Ben-Gurion University, who heads the commission’s documentation team. “The aim is to establish a factual infrastructure and also to better understand circumstances of the venues where specific crimes occurred.”

But at no point does she say she's collecting forensic evidence. She's relying on eyewitness testimony and newspaper reports. I don't know if any of the video/picture evidence shows a crime being committed, because it doesn't say. I don't need to see or hear that evidence, but I do want someone who's seen it to say what they saw. Someone who can say clearly that they've seen a video of the crime being committed and that this evidence exists.

Now, once again, I'm not saying that it didn't happen. I'm saying it's shoddy work. There wasn't a single rape kit used. Not a single autopsy of any victim. Those things don't have to be done on the battlefield. They can be done before the body is cleaned and prepared for the funeral.

BTW, there's nothing in that article that stated there's a law that made anyone bury any body. There was nothing that said why a burial couldn't be delayed. There was nothing that said why they didn't conduce a port mortem.

Timberrrrrrrr

Are all IDF soldiers perverts? Is he admitting to stealing money? Hopefully he gets arrested if he returns to the UK.

https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1743106422727118855?t=wtC-ncbsjnO55Okt_w79UQ&s=19

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573785#Comment_121573785

was there a poster up the thread a day or two ago basically denying people were questioning the rapes? hopeless really.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573872#Comment_121573872

Like the media speculation about who launched the rocket in the hospital carpark which set off mobs all over the ME.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573794#Comment_121573794

Not so.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/briefing/hamas-sexual-violence-child-labor-nikki-haley-civil-war-ukraine.html#:~:text=A%20two%2Dmonth%20investigation%20by,by%20Hamas%20in%20early%20October.

markodaly

Aaron Mate from the Greyzone, appeared frequently with Tucker Carlson.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Mat%C3%A9

A perfectly trustworthy source.... NOT!

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574208#Comment_121574208

Will be interesting if other parties front up now, post-this war. Especially countries like Egypt.

Perhaps Ireland can send some of its soldiers to keep the peace? Or is the best we can do is give out?

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574532#Comment_121574532

Well we are already in UNIFIL which is likely going to become a critical deployment very soon, so I think your 'best we can do is giving out ' remark is unwarranted

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574235#Comment_121574235

"BTW, there's nothing in that article that stated there's a law that made anyone bury any body. There was nothing that said why a burial couldn't be delayed. There was nothing that said why they didn't conduce a port mortem."

The organization that largely does this work for Israel, Zaka, buries victims quickly according to Jewish law. Orthodox Jews are opposed to autopsies as well, I don't think ZAKA does them. So, there are religious laws (at least, as interpreted by Orthodox Jews) that prevent it.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/28/middleeast/israel-body-collectors-intl-cmd/index.html

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574597#Comment_121574597

Would we be prepared to step into the breach between the IDF and Hamas?

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574632#Comment_121574632

But they're not all orthodox. I understand that maybe some are, but I think it's something like 1/8th of Israel is orthodox. And here's the thing, i don't think they even asked. If they asked and were refused that's one thing, but if they never bothered to ask, than that's bad.

And BTW, I'm not saying it was a conspiracy to hide stuff. I'm saying it was incompetence. There should have been someone who's job it was to make sure that they gathered as much as they could. maybe there is someone, but they weren't listened to. They should have done better at the time.

And it's not wrong for people to ask for this information. Or to say that they should have gathered it.

As I mentioned in a previous post, if you rounded up the rapists and presented them to the Israeli authorities, there's no evidence to confirm that they did it or to even confirm if a particular crime occurred. If I had 10 different people give me 10 wildly different figures about how often it happened, who would I believe? And the problem there is that one person is giving roughly accurate information, the others aren't. So then it's easy for a doubter to point at someone with a ridiculous figure and say that people are lying about it happening.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574791#Comment_121574791

The specifics would matter of course but I think so as part of a UN Mission, like I said we are already a large part of UNIFIL, and have been for about 30 years now

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574098#Comment_121574098

What, they have evidence for rapes that occurred in the first 3 days? That’s not my understanding of things?

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574845#Comment_121574845

ZAKA are orthodox or ultra orthodox though, and they were to a large extent the ones responsible and they followed their own customs

TinyMuffin

How is the investigation into bennys corruption going? 😋

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574521#Comment_121574521

Thats not whats hes doing. At all... Shame on you. Seems you can't even discuss anything logically and rationally here without being accused of anti-semitism. And his whole posts were logical and rational in the basis re the discussion of evidence. You purposely skipped over where he stated he believed it happened.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574845#Comment_121574845

It was a war zone.

If you believed it happened what is the purpose in carrying on down this line? To what end?

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574921#Comment_121574921

It wasn't a warzone where the bodies were brought afterwards. It wasn't a warzone in all the morgues. It wasn't a warzone in all the funeral homes. It wasn't a warzone at the burials.

There was plenty of opportunity to gather forensic evidence in the days afterwards but no autopsies were conducted.

And as I said at the very beginning and in nearly every post since then, the point of mentioning this is that the Israeli authorities shot themselves in the foot when they didn't document this. They created a situation where people come in and say it never happened. They made a mistake. And they continue to do so when they react aggressively to people who say that they should have this evidence.

In every post about it I've said I believe it happened. In every post where I mention Hamas I say that they're scum. I do this because if I say something like "Israel should have collect evidence" people will start accusing me of hating jewish people or whatabouttery. I don't and I'm not. I made an observation that the israeli authorities made a mistake and since them I've been compared to holocaust deniers.

So, is there anything you want to accuse me of? Do you want to hazard a guess on my motives? Because I'm just a guy who pointed out that if they'd actually conducted a proper investigation and gathered evidence, then the people who are denying it happened wouldn't have the ammunition they have. But I'm sure someone will come along and start calling me a nazi any moment now.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574990#Comment_121574990

ok.

i just think you are giving yourself a lot of grief about something which you believed happened in any event but sure fill your boots.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563044#Comment_121563044

“Collateral damage” nonsense.

You're trying to make it sound as if Israel is taking out Hamas soldiers and a few innocents are being killed when in reality it’s the exact opposite, Israel are murdering civilian men, women and children and if a Hamas soldier is killed in the strikes then it’s a stroke of luck.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574878#Comment_121574878

Netanyahu had a large part in not securing the border for 7 11 to happen but he is the exact right person to lead Israel now. He has no quams about killing civilians and the Israel public are supporting his brutal methods. I can't see him ever going to jail now for corruption.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573077#Comment_121573077

That is a complete rubbish statement. You can be anti-murder, anti-bombing or anti-war. That does not make you antisemitic at all or even anti-Irsraeli. It makes you human.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574990#Comment_121574990

"And as I said at the very beginning and in nearly every post since then, the point of mentioning this is that the Israeli authorities shot themselves in the foot when they didn't document this. They created a situation where people come in and say it never happened. They made a mistake. And they continue to do so when they react aggressively to people who say that they should have this evidence."

It's Israel: People would have come out and say this never happened. No matter what evidence had been presented. Presuming that type would listen to some higher legal authority is, in my view, naïve. We've seen it here, with at least one user saying it absolutely didn't happen, when I presented the article, they then decried it as 'Israeli government hasbara' or something like that, when we went on further they disappeared as the predominance, of at least testimony, is overwhelming.

As for what the Israeli government could and couldn't have done, that's a topic for another discussion. The Israeli government shared videos with Journalists who (like that nitwit from Wales) go on to deny what they saw.

Related, why didn't the UN at least acknowledge the possibility of the events, or even raise the issue until days after the events, after the video leakage and testimonies had come out. One other poster said, "What do you think about the South African accusations of rape.' Not in the motion they've proposed, I searched for the word 'rape', found zero hits. However, there was a tonne of "Israel said this! South Africa says that!" but it's just a proposal to the UN to do something so that standard is probably good enough.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574469#Comment_121574469

He's not as good a reporter as you Mark.😉

Igotadose

If one is looking for Israel "shooting itself in the foot" (nice phrase given the current circumstances,) there's a rumour that Israel will hire Alan Dershowitz to defend it in the Hague against the accusations by South Africa.

The many ways this is a horrible idea are difficult to enumerate. There are better lawyers out there. Dershowitz's a busted flush, whose name is all over the recent Jeffrey Epstein revelations.

Gag. Dershowitz. W. T. A. F.

"Haaretz Today | Does It Have to Be Alan Dershowitz Defending Israel Against Charges of Genocide?"

(https://archive.is/CODid)

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574990#Comment_121574990

I don't really understand why you think it matters so much: there is evidence that at least some of these rapes and murders and kidnappings happened - don't you agree?

So that being the case, and KNOWING that the Israel-Gaza situation is so polarised that we've seen that there will always be people who will NEVER believe "their" side did anything wrong, no matter what the evidence, then what difference does it make if there is "only" eye-witness and forensic evidence for "a few" of these events?

It's not as though collecting evidence for 75% of them would have convinced those who will never be convinced anyway - is it?

So what's your point, exactly? Judaism, like Islam, is not comfortable with a delay before burial, nor with autopsies at all - and many people who do not really practise their religion still want the religious ritual of burial, certainly in my experience of many Irish non-practising Catholics. It's hardly surprising that in the immediate hours after such a catastrophe, autopsies were not people's first thought.

I don't imagine even the most cynical of them expected to be disbelieved to that extent, TBF.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575580#Comment_121575580

Yes of course. I was talking about the specific phrases that seem to frequently be applied to Jews on this thread. Blood thirsty , bloodlust, blood letting, baby killers, satanic etc etc. It reeks of blood libel nonsense. surely it's possible to criticize Israels actions without using anti semitic tropes? Seems for some people, it isn't.

SeanW

Since South Africa has been mentioned as accusing Israel of "Genocide" I have to wonder why a corrupt and incompetent government in charge of a crime-ridden hellhole with very little electricity that can't even keep traffic lights on its roads, has such an interest in a conflict 6000 kilometres away. (For reference, the distance between Church Square in Pretoria and the Great Mosque in Khan Yunis is 6,381.28km

Why are South Africans Stealing Traffic Lights? (youtube.com)

I would have thought that the corrupt and incompetent government of South Africa would have priorities closer to home, but I guess crapping on Israel (and the 7+ million Jews who call it home) is more important. Hmm ...

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575887#Comment_121575887

Maybe they think Israel are doing something wrong and going to an authority on war crimes is the right thing to do?

Why do those on the pro israel side go after those countries critising them rather than argue the points of criticism?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575911#Comment_121575911

There are other possibilities. One is that a person could look at the state of South Africa and conclude that their government is not a moral authority on anything. Another is that dunking on Israel might be a good way to distract from their own legendary failures at home.

But even assuming for the sake of argument that this is not connected to wider far-Left hostility to Israel - which is long standing as the people who chant "From the River to the Sea" can tell you - I still have to wonder why the corrupt and incompetent government of South Africa isn't more concerned about its own sky high murder rate which is the third highest in the world, or the daily rolling blackouts and rampant cable theft, all of threatens to turn SA into even more of a failed state than it is now.

I guess it's a hallmark of being a corrupt and incompetent government in charge of a failing hellhole that your main priority is to take a politically expedient side in a quarrel 6000 km away.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575959#Comment_121575959

Surely not! 😆

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575959#Comment_121575959

I think that most cases in the ICC are initiated by a third country to whatever conflict they are dealing with. Maybe you should start a thread on how corrupt SA is and how far away from Gaza it is located.

But it will interested to see where this case goes. I see an Irish lawyer is working as external counsel for the SA team, and she has previously with allegations of Serbian atrocities in Croatia.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121576041#Comment_121576041

It will go nowhere. Even if they do find against Israel, the Israelis and Americans will ignore their decision.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121576082#Comment_121576082

True though it does upset the Israelis and their die hard supporters here which can be seen in how they post about SA.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575852#Comment_121575852

To describe people who criticise the likes of Netanyahu and some of his politicians and ''religious'' friends, who quote ancient Bible passages to try to make slaughter acceptable, as antisemitic is nonsense.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575959#Comment_121575959

Someone else could look at it and think '' Jaysus, even the S. Africans are calling them out ''. How bad is that?