Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592173#Comment_121592173

Yes we have killed thousands of children but they're chanting (what we believe to be) mean things!

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592379#Comment_121592379

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592633#Comment_121592633

The problem isn't an easy one but it is simple:

Either you're with the Jews, or you're with the whackjobs who want them all dead.

Of course the likes of Timberrrrrr with his "news" dumps from Quds "News" Network and Hamas socket puppet accounts on twitter has made their choice abundantly clear.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592832#Comment_121592832

Israelis: 1200

Innocent Palestinians: 30,0000

Who are the whackjobs?

You have also made your choice abundantly clear.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592127#Comment_121592127

You seem very happy to just post anything that's framed as being beneficial to your cause, without having any clue about the true story behind such posts. Literal propaganda in the purest sense.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591918#Comment_121591918

I’m not saying the IDF tactics are correct or optimum as regards the hostages but it is incorrect to say no hostages have been freed yet.

Israel would no doubt say they hit Hamas so hard Hamas were keen on a ceasefire and that why they released hostages plus there was a rescue early on. This is debatable of course.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590860#Comment_121590860

Isn't that an old video? Either I'm going senile or I saw that at least a year ago, maybe longer.

Edit: yeah two years ago: (still horrendous mind you)

https://youtu.be/FvcDcHE-9Ig?feature=shared

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592832#Comment_121592832

"Either you're with the Jews, or you're with the whackjobs who want them all dead."

Or (and I know this may be an alien concept to you) I want BOTH SIDES to stop killing innocent civilians?

Again you can't refute the evidence I've posted do you choose instead to attack the source.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592933#Comment_121592933

You could be right as they're throwing much more dangerous and deadlier weapons now.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591725#Comment_121591725

once again, showing ignorance with siplified river to the sea nonsense. Give it up

OCtober the 7th was not the beginning of this. It was an escalation, but not the beginning. Ignore israel taking more land in the prior 2 months than they had in the 40 years prior combined and displacing hundreds of families who had lived in the territory for hundreds of years in the process if you want.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590310#Comment_121590310

30,000 innocent Palestinians now, is it? So, zero Hamas fighters according to Hamas' official figures then? Oh wait.

But concerning the actually innocent Palestinians, who are nowhere near 30,000, then yes of course they matter. Just like the civilians killed in Dresden or Hiroshima mattered. But not all deaths of civilians in a war are murder. And the fact that Hamas can't manage to kill more Israelis despite their best efforts, while the Israelis could obviously kill far more but are actually trying not to despite Hamas' best efforts, does not make them the same.

Hamas targets Jews purely because of their ethnicity. Jews are just trying to survive, despite a tradition of literally centuries of attacks on them, which have clearly not stopped just because they now have a country.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592891#Comment_121592891

So what is the true story about a woman, with a child, waving a white flag who then gets shot by a sniper?

Or the back story behind TV presenters joking about turning Palestinian homes into rubble?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591880#Comment_121591880

1) Name any? Are you saying the Irish government was complicit in allowing the IRA to operate at will in the way Hezbollah does? Because they definitely were not.

2) I mentioned Kingsmill (Bessbrook) myself previously as an atrocity which was exceptional, but even then no babies were murdered, which was my original point - and also Kingsmill was not supported by ordinary people, hence the tactic never became commonplace. Darkley was the INLA, not the IRA. They were always more extreme, and had a tiny support base. Which, again, was my point. Nationalists in Northern Ireland - much less the republic - would not have supported anything close to the sort of horrors that Hamas carry out being committed in their name. That's why the hypothesis of "But what if Ireland started bombing England and shooting hundreds of concert-goers at Glastonbury" is positively laughable.

(As for age, I'm quite possibly older than you: I remember (just about) the soldiers arriving in the town where I grew up. And I also remember how people in the south, when we went on holiday there, were above all terrified that we might somehow be contagious. The last thing they wanted to hear was any talk of Northern Ireland. It's hilarious how, now that there is no longer any risk of the troubles affecting them, they're suddenly all gung ho for Sinn Fein and, supposedly, the nationalist cause. As though Sinn Fein got us civil rights. They didn't. Nor peace, except to the extent that they were among those causing the trouble in the first place.)

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593746#Comment_121593746

I was responding to a poster who said there were no cross border incidents. Those were just some from off the top of my head.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593633#Comment_121593633

So, you're good to continually use every justification possible for murdered civilians?

So just how many of those are innocent?You stated "nowhere near 30,000". Seeing as you appear to have insider information, just how many are innocent then?

And how many of those were "not murdered" but killed.

And if they were not murdered, what do you call it? Collateral damage? An unfortunate mistake? Tragic but necessary?

And the Israelis "could obviously kill a lot more but are trying not to". So exactly how did the sniper "try not to" kill a women waving a white flag?

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593675#Comment_121593675

Or why is a truck load of prisoners blaming Hamas not a truck load of prisoners actually blaming Hamas?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593764#Comment_121593764

I don't think anyone said there were NO cross border incidents - what does that even mean? When an IRA man slipped across the border where (in theory) he couldn't be followed, and the army followed him - as happened many times - claiming to have read the map wrong, well clearly that's "a cross border incident".

But that in itself illustrates my point rather nicely: nobody ever believed that the British Army were that sh1t at map reading that they really crossed the border accidentally. Yet the Irish government supinely pretended to think they might have done, and certainly never made a fuss about it. Imagine Lebanon covering the Israelis in that way when they want to get Hamas people in Lebanon?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593772#Comment_121593772

So you think everyone who died in Gaza was an innocent civilian?

There's really no point in continuing this discussion then. Hamas are a terror group who have murdered Palestinians for daring to disagree with them, yet you think they're likely to be telling the truth about deaths? Even assuming the total is correct, how could there be NO Hamas fighters among them? It's bizarre.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593788#Comment_121593788

Or what's the truth behind an IDF soldier about to throw a stun grenade at medics who stops when realising he's caught on camera?

But here's the thing - whilst I have not viewed any of the Hamas videos of 7th Oct, I have no problem taking the BBC's word for it.

When someone posts an IDF atrocity video or a defenceless Palestinian being shot or another, either wounded or dead, being run over by the IDF, all of a sudden there's another "truth" behind it and what you're seeing is not the real truth.

nolivesmatter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593155#Comment_121593155

"Or (and I know this may be an alien concept to you) I want BOTH SIDES to stop killing innocent civilians?"

But that's completely unrealistic the way things are now. Israel's neighbor's want them dead, they will always be in fear of another October 7th. The only thing to do here is for the countries who say they want Israel to stop to deploy their own peacekeeping troops to Gaza, but they don't seem to be very interested in that.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593827#Comment_121593827

But why do you care about the numbers of innocents they provide? The number of innocent deaths hasn't fazed you from the start so why start worrying about how high the number is?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593444#Comment_121593444

If it's an escalation, welcome to the new normal.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593827#Comment_121593827

It's a free world - feel free to not continue discussing, making things up and not answering my questions. I don't particular care what you do.

But if you do continue prepare to be challenged.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593802#Comment_121593802

There was even an attack on the Grand Hotel in Brighton in attempt to kill the PM Margaret Thatcher in 1984 and a mortar attack on Downing Street in 1901. An attack on Horseguard Parade that killed soldiers and horses etc etc

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593884#Comment_121593884

1991

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593802#Comment_121593802

I believe there was someone who said exactly that. You'd have to go back through a few pages.

Hey boy

My suggestions for after this war:

A. No army or armed police in Gaza, just unarmed police. Firearms illegal.

B. Any Gazan who wishes to leave Gaza afterwards (save for perpetrators of 7th Oct etc) should be free to do so for a country of his/her choice, preferably Quatar or Iran or one of the arab states (wealthy/shared culture etc). Those who wish to stay should stay. I really think the refugee status needs to end especially if given a genuine choice to leave. It is far too easy for Saudi A etc to criticise from the sidelines but refuse to take anyone on the basis that that would be ethnic cleansing. If no one wants to leave fair enough but nowhere else in the world AFAIK does refugee status pass down through generations.

C. A brand new party to be elected which has in its constitution an acceptance of Israel’s right to exist and an undertaking not to attack it and a condemnation of violence.

D. Insert obligations inc. funding rebuilding etc for Israel, arab states, USA, Europe, South A etc here. In turn Gaza leaders must be held accountable for aid funds given the sums Hamas appear to have used up for tunnels and splurging abroad.

E. No settlements in Gaza.

F. No tunnels in Gaza.

G. A buffer zone of x km (farming allowed etc) reducing over a period of years on the proviso that there are no attacks from Gaza.

H. Full access and possibly a presence for independent international monitors that can be trusted by both sides.

Gaza has such potential but without Gaza pursuing peace Israel has to take necessary steps to protect itself. If Gaza is peaceful then Israel needs to reciprocate by relaxing such measures.

I dismay at the lack of realistic proposals coming forward from anywhere for afterwards at least that I have seen. No doubt mine aren’t great for whatever reason but I would be interested in what others think. It may be that other posters have more realistic ideas and I should be glad to hear them.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593839#Comment_121593839

I have no idea why you directed that at me.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593841#Comment_121593841

Yeah

It's everyone else's fault that innocent men, women and children are getting killed.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593841#Comment_121593841

Unrealistic or not, you cannot deny anyone the humanity to say they want both sides to stop killing innocent civilians.

Given the indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza, including premised safe zones, I doubt there will be any activity from there from Hamas or anyone else in decades. But the stated goal of Israel is they will wipe out Hamas - so it should never happen again.

The only thing thing to do is for Israel is to stop. Then take it from there.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593904#Comment_121593904

"No settlements in Gaza"

And the illegal settlements in West Bank?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593904#Comment_121593904

Does the Palestinian Authority meet the definition of the party set out in 3,?

I think I would add no longer should Israel be allowed to blockade Gaza from the sea.

Also if Israel is found guilty in the icc they should have sanctions place on it if they fail to extradite any guilty parties

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593915#Comment_121593915

Apologies - I want clear. I wasn't criticising you - just adding to the list. The bit at the end was a general comment to the previous poster about the "truth behind videos"

Whilst I'm here, your list is a good start. You've thought about it.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593937#Comment_121593937

I condemned them pages and pages ago but if you tie the two together you might never get anywhere so I have stuck with Gaza meantime.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593984#Comment_121593984

You can't have a solution without including the west bank though, if a deal was made tomorrow with just Gaza/Israel there would be nothing stopping Israel continued illegal expansion into West bank.

nolivesmatter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593936#Comment_121593936

I don't deny the humanity of what was said. Of course I understand wanting both sides to stop killing innocent civilians.

But if we're being realistic then we have to acknowledge that both sides feel justified in what they do, so just wanting both sides to stop is pointless. They aren't going to resolve this conflict between themselves. External forces need to step in to make it happen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593932#Comment_121593932

No point posting if you're just going to be deliberately obtuse.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121589847#Comment_121589847

I think it's easy enough to understand really (& no I am not condoning anybody laughing at others injured or dying or anything like that)

The Jewish people have suffered all their existence. They have been hounded, expelled and murdered in their millions, just because they are Jewish. When they eventually got something (Israel) they were immediately attacked by their neighbours. All Jewish people in neighbouring North Africa and the middle east were expelled from their homes and went as refugees to Israel.

It has made them a paranoid, defensive people. They won't show weakness and will not care what others think of them because that's the way they have had to be. Israel will defend themselves and their country to the last and no I don't believe they have any empathy for other nationalities.

It's definitely understandable.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594011#Comment_121594011

Agreed. I didn't doubt you but if the starting point is "the killing has to stop", what comes next has a better chance of success.

Not disagreeing with the sentiment, but I would seperate out Hamas and Palestinians. Hamas needs to be dismantled and individuals prosecuted to the fullest extent.

I don't think the ideology of Hamas is justified at all. The Palestinians, absolutely.

In principle, Israel is justified in its aims of eliminating Hamas. Just that their current methods are barbaric (as were/are Hamas's).

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593891#Comment_121593891

Wouldn't matter - we're not discussing Northern Ireland, we're discussing whether the IRA on the border were comparable to the situation of Hezbollah in Lebanon. My example was the sort of "cross border incident" that actually happened several times, rather than someone's fond imaginings that the Irish Army valiantly fought the British occupiers in Northern Ireland side by side with the IRA. Or at least that the Irish government was in any way complicit with them. The Irish government had far more sympathy for the British government than for the IRA.

Which shows that there was no "cross border activity" of the sort that occurs between Lebanon and Israel.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593884#Comment_121593884

LOL

An attack on Margaret Thatcher, or on soldiers, is comparable to kidnapping a 9 month old baby - really?

What are you like??

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594023#Comment_121594023

That's a compelling argument.

I do understand how Israelis feel - it was clear to me that they are surrounded by those who would wipe them off the face of the earth - of course they were justified in self defence from their inception.

I do believe there must be some Israelis who clearly see the irony of today versus the 1940's. I do know that many Israelis I spoke with were happy to live and let live (that was in a time of peace).

I am surprised at the high percentage of Israelis who wish the campaign to continue.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593904#Comment_121593904

How about modifying point B to say that any Gazan who wants to leave Gaza and return to reclaim their family's land can do so?

Why do you include South Africa and the Arab States as having funding obligations to rebuild the destruction that Israel deliberately caused? Revenge/retaliation against SA for having the temerity to refer Israel to the ICC?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594070#Comment_121594070

You said:

"I don't think anyone said there were NO cross border incidents"

I just answered that bit.

But since you then carried on, again, you're totally mistaking the point I was making. It wasn't about the IRA or the north. I didn't bring that up.

You were asked a question a long time ago about the Brits bombing Irish cities in retribution for bombings - and you've gone off on a total Billy tangent.

My general point is that murder is murder. Whether it's Warrington, Gaza or Israel.There is no justification for murder.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594047#Comment_121594047

In principle, Israel is justified in its aims of eliminating Hamas

This can mean different things. I don't think Israel can get away scot free on killing everyone affiliated with Hamas given that Israel directly, and indirectly, are responsible for the circumstances which both created the organisation and drove people towards it.

Timberrrrrrrr

Are Israel about to start a war with Lebanon?

https://twitter.com/Megatron_ron/status/1744800133194133629?t=v0C2Y0anD_efJZv0TKkSKQ&s=19

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594081#Comment_121594081

What are you even talking about now?

I was replying to your assertion that there were no cross-border attacks. Are you losing your way a bit now?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593955#Comment_121593955

I believe they have renounced the use of violence against Israel to attain their goals and will only use political means. They were totally at odds with Hamas.

So certainly possible - if the Israeli government is moderate and would accept it.

I think also there could be a case for Gaza to have rights to offshore resources. Perhaps someone would assist in extracting the resources and profits used to assist in rebuilding Gaza.

Yes to your last point - but equally applicable to anyone found guilty on the other side.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594089#Comment_121594089

I'm sure there are many Israelis who do not agree with what's happening right now. I know some of them who are definitely not happy.

There are many many Israelis who do not support Netanyahu.

I'd say the ones that want it to continue are just hoping that it will bring it all to an end. Now that's just my thinking, based on nothing other then speaking to a few Israelis.

I don't believe that the majority are happy about thousands of innocents being killed.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594136#Comment_121594136

Totally agree - hence "in principle".

Israel has culpability in creating/sustaining conditions for Hamas to take control. I honestly don't know enough about Hamas - perhaps there are moderates within who would assist the process.

The PLO did it so no reason Hamas couldn't.

And by "eliminating" I didn't mean killing. "neutralising the threat" would be what I meant.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594214#Comment_121594214

Many of them appear to have been indoctrinated to hate the Palestinians and consider them as subhuman

https://twitter.com/ME_Observer_/status/1731160875308888191

nacho libre

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67922238

Interesting. This I suspect is one of the main reasons Hamas launched the October 7th attacks.