Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121608489#Comment_121608489

The funny thing about war is that tends to be about "sides" and if you have a position on an ongoing war, it's almost impossible not to "pick a team."

And this war is no different, there are two sides to it. Israelis (mostly Jews), and those who want to wipe them out. It really is that simple. "Picking a team" might not be easy, but the problem is simple.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611735#Comment_121611735

Well that is completely incorrect.

It is perfectly possible (and most would say more normal and usual) for external parties to be against both sides in a conflict continuing.....That's why the UN was set up etc.

Saying to one party "ah will ya calm down killing them other lads" is not the same as saying "die die you scum. We're going to kill all of you".

And, at the risk of blowing your mind, just to let you know that even though you've made it clear that you don't want any "Jews" to be killed, it would be actually possible for you to simultaneously not want any Muslims or Christians or whatever to be killed too!

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611716#Comment_121611716

But you said you don't want the Jews dead. You ok with the 25% non Jewish Israelis dying?

And I'm not sure what you mean "almost by definition"? What definition?

And would have thought that if there is a definition, it either is or isn't. Not almost?

could be reading you wrong of course.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611738#Comment_121611738

I didn't say they were?

i was answering another poster who said Hamas should be brought to the ICJ.

Actually, I would probably have been closer to the mark using "countries".

I actually wasn't being pedantic. Just stating what cases the ICJ entertains. They certainly would not hear a case against a terrorist organisation.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611835#Comment_121611835

But Hamas are the legal government of Gaza, so it's not quite that clear. It's not like trying to bring, say, the IRA to justice there.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611862#Comment_121611862

Let me help any poster who doesn't know what the ICJ is or does (this was previously posted):

The International Court of Justice (ICJ; French: Cour internationale de justice; CIJ), also called the World Court,[1] is one of the six principal organs of the United Nations (UN).[2] It settles disputes between states in accordance with international law and gives advisory opinions on international legal issues. The ICJ is the only international court that adjudicates general disputes between countries, with its rulings and opinions serving as primary sources of international law (subject to Article 59 of the Statute of the International Court of Justice).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611482#Comment_121611482

Apologies to the original poster - I meant Houthis.

For the follow on posts, the Houthis are not a state/country either.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612039#Comment_121612039

In that case, fair enough, I agree.

It's surprising how often posters do treat Hamas as "just" another terror group, in terms of not expecting them to obey international law while accusing Israel of, eh, not respecting international law. The fact that they run a state and therefore have access to funds, run a police force etc IMO makes a difference to what can/should be expected of them.

dmcdona

I have said this previously but will repeat seeing as there seems to be some confusion as regards the ICJ.

SA and Israel (and many more countries/states) are signatories to the convention on genocide.

Signatories have a duty to prevent genocide - either by not engaging in it themselves or reporting those who they believe are perpetrating it. It is the ICJ that hears these cases (disputes between states/countries). The ICJ rule on the case, which is legally binding. The ICJ has no enforcement mechanism however so, as has happened before, countries can ignore findings. But international condemnation would undoubtedly follow.

In the case last week, the ruling on genocide will likely not be given for a few years. However, SA have asked for the implementation of interim measures. Israel could ignore both any interim measures imposed and a ruling of committing genocide should either or both of those transpire.

The panel of judges are supplemented, in this case, by a SA judge and an Israeli judge (who survived the holocaust).

The ICJ is not known for partiality.

The ICj does not hear cases other than those between states/countries. So the Houthis, Hamas and similar "organisations" would not find themselves in front of the ICJ.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612069#Comment_121612069

I cant speak for others but I have stated here before that Hamas should be neutralised and any combatants found to have committed crimes prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I include the IDF in that statement too.

I'm not a lawyer but I'd expect any arrested combatant (both sides) in this conflict to be prosecuted in Israel. Whether that's a criminal court or military court, I don't know. But if found guilty, the maximum allowable sentence should be handed down.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612110#Comment_121612110

Just to add, although it has no enforcement ability, if Israel ignored an interim order to cease, SA could bring it to the UN security council to take action against Israel. In the event of that happening, the belief is that the US, and perhaps the UK, would veto any action against Israel

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611735#Comment_121611735

There may be two "sides" but there are also combatants and civilians.

If Israel and Hamas wanted to go and kick the living beejaysus out of each other in the desert, that'd be grand.

But for both Israel and Gaza civilians, they are paying a price. In the case of Gaza, an unacceptable and unprecedented price since the last Great War.

As ever, your stance is crystal clear. You are happy to watch the genocide of Gaza continue unabated as long as the Jews are not driven into the sea.

Don't mind the civilians in Gaza, don't mind the 25% of Israelis who are not Jews.

So yes, the problem in your mind is simple. We see it clearly.

suvigirl

So are we at the stage now we're anyone that believes Israel are at war, and are entitled to defend themselves, are somehow islamophobic and hate Muslims?

is that the general argument now?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611716#Comment_121611716

You know the rest of civilised society is fed up with the Israeli narrative about Jews and their persecution. It's had it's day, history in the dusty and dirty pages of the past.

In the current world we live, Israel is entirely the author of it's own misfortune.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612238#Comment_121612238

Yep. A new level of comedy altogether.

Any criticism of terrorism is based on racism now.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611637#Comment_121611637

Britain had no right to sell Palestine to the Jews thus granting an entitlement based on lineage. Would you think it right if France sold Dublin to the Germans and Germans from all over the world came to displace Dubliners and bung them in refugee camps in the Isle of Man?

Your alternative is accept invasion? The strongest at the time wins, might is right and shut up and take it?

The Romans invaded Britain but at least they were sporting about the arrangement, they didn't sell Wales to the Eskimo's and let them fill the place with igloos.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612214#Comment_121612214

Correct on part I and I'd concur in principle with part II - though I'd hope they only abstain - as they did a few weeks back.

Israel might make it easy for them though:

"No one will stop us - not The Hague, not the Axis of Evil and no one else. It is possible and necessary to continue until victory and we will do it," Mr Netanyahu told a televised press conference as the war in Gaza moves into its 100th day on Sunday.

As civilian deaths continue to rack up, the chance of a veto must diminish. Abstention would look bad but a veto would smack of hypocrisy to normal thinking people.

I suppose it depends on the interim measures if there were some.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612278#Comment_121612278

I don't believe the British sold Palestine to the Jews. But then your sources would presumably be better than mine if you'd like to share them?

I didn't bother reading the rest of your post.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612278#Comment_121612278

Well, they kind of did. The mandate for Palestine required Britain to put the balfour agreement into effect. So they were required to give a home to the Jewish people.

Obviously France could never sell Dublin, seeing as it was not under their control ever 🙄but Britain could, before 1921 do whatever they wanted with Ireland.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612238#Comment_121612238

Israel defending themselves

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612238#Comment_121612238

And those who believes Israel is committing atrocities in Gaza and The West Bank are anti semites and hate Jews?

That has been a very common stance since the early days of this thread (note, not an argument).

Strazdas

Netanyahu fears losing the ICJ case? Quote is accurate btw - widely reported from a TV address he made this evening.

https://twitter.com/MarioNawfal/status/1746233030992142509

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612410#Comment_121612410

Also on RTE

The implications of interim measures being handed down would imply that the judges are minded toward a finding of genocide. That would be a devastating result for Israel. Especially as their ad hoc judge is a survivor of the holocaust.

If Israel believe interim measures are more likely than not, I can imagine they will now throw everything they have at Gaza before that finding is published. The atrocities may well put what has happened up to now in the ha'penny place.

I hope I am wrong.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612315#Comment_121612315

Exactly. Who could blame the Irish for defending the land they lived on for many generations and trying to repel the "strangers".

I don't think the Palestinians voted for the British and international law is still being broken by Jewish settlers with no repercussions as they engage in continual Israeli expansion.

Without law, there is terrorism or as the more sympathetic to the situation like to think "freedom fighting".

One is a simple soul, I can see things easily from a Palestinian position. You see I am on the families land right now, even though I was born in and grew up in England. It isn't much, it has a house and a fragmented farm. Fragmented I am told because the English Landlord did not want to give my Irish ancestors their land back in the easiest most economically farmed form.

So I know what my family went through, those that emigrated, those that were made homeless and left to the charity of relatives. It provides a bit of empathy with people thrown out of their homes, off their land and given no legal rights to appeal.

They might be a different religion, a different culture, but they are no less human than myself and therefore I want justice for them too. Bombing the crap out of people is not justice.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612346#Comment_121612346

Actually it's a lot simpler:

HamasCollege.jpg

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612526#Comment_121612526

You clearly see children as Hamas

nachouser

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/13/thousands-of-pro-palestine-protesters-march-in-london

So, the UK hates Jews now? Or could it possibly be more nuanced than that.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612512#Comment_121612512

What land has Israel stolen in Gaza?

The rest of the post is romantic rubbish, plenty of us grew up in England and 200 years ago our families had more.

there no excuse for terrorism

Carlito Brigantes Tale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612410#Comment_121612410

Let's not forget America supports this creep, a guy who doesn't respect the international rule of law or the Haque.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612447#Comment_121612447

It certainly would suggest that he fears Israel losing the case. Why would he ridicule the ICJ if he felt confident of winning?

I've heard some legal experts saying an interim judgement against Israel would be profoundly significant. It would mean any country continuing to provide military support to Israel after the ruling would be a party to genocide and in clear breach of the ICJ ruling.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612685#Comment_121612685

To be honest Netanyahu only respects those who don't criticise him, he won't listen to Jew or gentile who doesn't reflect his own opinion. He seems to be like Trump that way. And this is the guy who will decide when the killing of civilians stops.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612674#Comment_121612674

How do you define terrorism?

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612631#Comment_121612631

There has been a massive rise in anti semitic incidents in recent months so yes, a lot of people in the UK hate Jews and it really isn't more nuanced than that in many cases

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612716#Comment_121612716

That's interesting. I didn't know that. Thank you.

Was just reading a Haaretz article (paywalled). Their stance was that they don't believe Israel committed genocide but the Israel Govt and Netanyahu, with their rhetoric, put Israel in a position where a submission was likely. They are pretty p*ssed with Netanyahu alright.

Also from the article:

While the International Criminal Court (also in the Hague) prosecutes individuals, the world court deals with countries or recognized international organizations. Both the plaintiff (in this case, South Africa) and the defendant (Israel) have to consent to its jurisdiction and accept its ruling with no appeal recourse. Judgment is final and the panel of judges' decision need not be unanimous.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612346#Comment_121612346

another persuasive cartoon. deep.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612783#Comment_121612783

very

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611677#Comment_121611677

People should not be killed outside schools in Europe of in Gaza. Murder is murder no matter where it happens. No murder is right.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611735#Comment_121611735

Sean, we've seen people on both sides sides stating that they wanted to wipe out the other.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612716#Comment_121612716

The problem with that is that the US has already supplied Israel with weapons in advance of any judgement from the ICJ.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612894#Comment_121612894

The US are a lost cause obviously but I'd guess many some others would feel very uncomfortable if the court found against Israel on a charge of genocide - they would be getting into a very dodgy / risky area legally.

tayto lover

When all this is over and the truth comes out I can't see many countries wanting anything to do with the murderous state of Israel.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612674#Comment_121612674

Gaza is the dumping ground for the refugees that had their land stolen by settlers.

Romantic rubbish? So you dismiss people with value for their heritage as "romantic rubbish"? I don't class my families history and the suffering my ancestors went through as romantic rubbish. I feel quite proud that we survived the attempts of the largest power on earth at one point to steal our land and starve us into the grave.

If there is no excuse for terrorism, why did the Brit's give way to the Israeli terrorists prior to the Balfour declaration?

Why is it terrorism to fight for a right to survive as free individuals and perfectly fine to bomb countries for their oil?

Why do you think Israel doesn't even try to stop or hand back illegally settled land?

If a people have no access to justice, what do they do? What would you do if your way of life and freedom was limited by a foreign power?

If Israel had some respect for UN declarations or Palestinian citizens lives I could see a desire to move forward in an attempt at some form of decency, but it doesn't does it?

Why continue land theft if it riles the owners. Might I remind you that Israel now wants to cut Gaza off from Egypt, thus Israeli control of Gaza is going to be complete.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612305#Comment_121612305

Well, with the Balfour Declaration, they backed the creation of a Jewish state in the area that is now Israel/Palestine. Lest not forget the region was still part of the Ottoman Empire at the time of the Balfour declaration. Would an Israeli state have been created under Ottoman rule? Highly unlikely, so the reality is that it was the British who were the key factor in the fulfillment of the Zionist project.

Like I posted previously, during the post WW1 peace negotiations, the Americans actually set up a Commission to look at the possibilities for the region, the British and the French both refused to take part in that Commission, primarily because they knew the results wound run counter to their agendas in the region. That was precisely the case, the Commission rejected the idea of a Zionist state in the region knowing that it would be an absolute shitshow. When they surveyed the people of the region, the overwhelming wish was for an Arab State covering Syria, Palestine, Lebanon & Jordan under an American mandate, more or less what the British had also promised the Arabs during WW1. Of course the British ignored that promise and went ahead with the Palestinian mandate and the Zionist project.

Under the British mandate, the Arabs were effectively ignored and treated as second class citizens whilst Jewish immigration sky-rocketed, with the British also selling land to the settlers. Naturally enough the Arabs got tired of being ignored and as with most groups who are consistently ignored politically, started to use more violent methods and communal violence between the Arabs, Jewish settlers and the British broke out. With the British struggling to control things, they realised rather belatedly that it was turning into an absolute shitshow(as predicted), so they then tried to restrict Jewish immigration to the region in an effort to balance things out, leading to conflict between the Zionists and the British also. The British actually wanted the Israelis to hold off on trying to create a state as they knew the ramifications, but the Israelis proclaimed independence anyways.

Carlito Brigantes Tale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612719#Comment_121612719

No Biden could decide that tomorrow but he won't because he'll lose a lot of votes for November.

Dick phelan

This doesn't have any actual power though. I mean Russia is committing war crimes but will we ever see Putin in the Hague I doubt it. If they are found guilty I suspect Israel will carry on regardless. Judgements and law only have power if they can be enforced. International law doesn't really mean anything as it gets broken daily without consequences.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612526#Comment_121612526

More dishonesty and ad hominem.

In fairness to the clueless blue haired college students, they managed to get a pretty watertight case presented to the ICJ.....................

nacho libre

This persistence in framing all opposition to Israeli Government policy as coming from the left only is amusing. I suppose it kills two birds with one stone: the poster gets to indulge their hatred of all things left wing and defend Israel at the same time, but what about Israeli left wing organisations and media that are critical of their own Government. Are they self hating Israelis? Also someone said there is no excuse for terrorism ever. Does that mean the likes of Irgun were wrong to do what they did?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614122#Comment_121614122

I think they consider the left wing Jews in Israel and America as Jews in name only (JINO) . I've heard Ben shapiro and other right wing critics use that term as well as well as self-hating Jews. Its strange as the far right is obviously antisemitic so left- right divide doesnt really apply for the gaza-israel conflict.

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121609925#Comment_121609925

The general consensus on this thread is people are against Hamas and also against Israel. Hamas for their terrorist attacks and mindless killing and for Israel for their terrorist attacks and mindless killing.

Who started this is chicken or egg stuff, but it wasn't started on 7/10 and Israel's response since hasn't be proportionate. When people call this out its not being anti-semitic. Israel has a right to defend itself but that right is not absolute, it doesn't trump the right of innocent people.

You never did reply to my query regarding what your thoughts were on all the innocent Palestinian deaths and if any criticism of Israel is Anti-semitic.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614703#Comment_121614703

See my post # 27590. My answer to your question on any criticism of Israel being (necessarily) anti-Semitic was NO.