Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121630887#Comment_121630887

If you're alleging I said something I never said, why wouldn't I "butt in"?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631046#Comment_121631046

Well, I don't have a single instance of you accusing me of butting in.

I actually have three:

"At which point you jumped in with a complete irrelevance"

"You jumped into an ongoing conversation"

"discussion that you jumped into."

Feel free to deny it and not apologise for now accusing me of accusing you of something you didn't do.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631148#Comment_121631148

That's because you did though - it wasn't a case of two posters discussing you, and lying about you.

Big difference.

And BTW, there's no problem with you joining in a discussion. The thing was that you seem to have misunderstood what the conversation had been about, and went off on a bizarre side track.

And then took it thick when your misunderstanding was pointed out to you.

And here we still are.

Dr. Greenthumb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121629723#Comment_121629723

Exactly, the US / Nato set the precedent for bombing in other countries, without permission, as an act of self defence.

dmcdona

For those who counteract any argument in favour of Palestinians in Gaza with:

"They voted for Hamas and therefore are Hamas"

You might read this for a balanced perspective:

"The 2019 Gaza economic protests, also called the We Want to Live protests[4][2][1] and the 14th March movement,[2] were a series of protests held in the Gaza Strip in response to high costs of living and tax hikes. 

The protests were met with violence by the ruling Hamas, which dispatched security forces to disperse protesters.[4] Several human rights organisations and political factions have denounced attacks on protesters by Hamas security forces.[4] The protests were described as the most severe anti-regime protests in Gaza since the Hamas takeover in 2007.[2]"

Source:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Gaza_economic_protests

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631287#Comment_121631287

As admirable as your attempt at nuance are, the usual suspects are just going to launch into accusations of Hamas sympathy, anti-Semitism etc. etc. They don't care about Palestinian suffering and don't even try to make excuses for their position.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631221#Comment_121631221

Hmm - sounds like a denial to me. Res ipsa loquitor.

You are again accusing me of butting in and yet in the same breath saying there's no problem me joining in a conversation...

So that's a total about turn in two paragraphs. Your head must hurt.

I'd ask you to point out my bizarre side track but that would prolong the tedium of your persistence.

And, yes, here you still are...

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631287#Comment_121631287

Since 2019 have they bothered their holes doing anything other than blame and attack Israel?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631350#Comment_121631350

It's not an about-turn. Christ you are exhausting. it took about 3 pages of a back and forth yesterday before you went back and reread and realised you'd got things arse-over backwards, and you're doing the same thing again now.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631605#Comment_121631605

Clearly you have the inside track on Palestinian activities since 2019 so I'll take your word for it.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121630868#Comment_121630868

But as you know had Hamas not attacked Israel on 7th October then the IDF would not have gone into Gaza.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631287#Comment_121631287

My heart goes out to them. Gaza needs to be free from Hamas. That’s why I can’t understand that the pro palestinian protesters never chant or hold placards about this. There are placards about all sorts of stuff but Hamas get a pass. Why?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631337#Comment_121631337

The question is not about "caring" about Palestinian suffering, but rather the standards Israel is being held to.

International law (and the history of warfare) AFAIK is clear - belligerents in hostilities are allowed to target the military/government of their enemies and civilian casualties are permitted as long as they're not the targets. So my question remains for the majority of Gazan civilians who've lost their lives in this conflict: were they targeted (i.e. Israel just killed them for s***es and giggles) or were they collateral damage of legitimate attacks on the Gazan government and military (i.e. Hamas)

amandstu

Why are the civilian population of Gaza not being allowed to leave the arena of the fighting between IDF and Hamas et al?

Would most of them take up this option if offered ?

What parties are preventing this from happening?

Is it Egypt and the Arab neighbours ?

Is it Israel?

Is it Europe ?

If the civilians were allowed to evacuate for the duration of the fighting wouldn't this resolve itself in very short order?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631964#Comment_121631964

Speculative. It just gave them an available excuse for military adventurism. They’ve been there before and they’ll be there again.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631977#Comment_121631977

Never ever? Everywhere? You checked? Omnisciently?

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631964#Comment_121631964

They would.

It was only a matter of time since they found gas off the coast of Gaza.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632469#Comment_121632469

Are you seriously suggesting that the massacre on Oct 7th did not provoke this current war?

LuckyLloyd

One question that doesn’t seem to really be addressed in media is how the IDF campaign is progressing in terms of stated military objectives? Have they freed hostages, killed thousands of Hamas members, stormed tunnels, seized weapons, etc? Obviously thousands of innocent Palestinians have been killed, but is the IDF actually making progress on what their operation is supposedly looking to achieve from the Israeli perspective?

Surely handling a dramatically less equipped and outnumbered rag tag bunch of terrorists should only have taken a few weeks? This aspect is all very unclear imo.

you_talking_to_me

Ths ISW (institute for the study of war) are doing excellent wartime analysis at least daily sometimes twice daily supported by good reference maps.

This is just some of their morning bulletin released today. I’m open to correction on their authenticity but I have found their updates on Ukrainian/ Russian very informative.

Going by their analysis and seeing that the Israelis have now been reengaged in battle in the north, an area they had previously declared largely cleared and free of terrorist activity there’s little sign in sight of any cessation of hostilities.

Rocket attacks are still a near daily occurrence too it seems.

The West Bank also show little sign of settling down.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632150#Comment_121632150

They did evacuate, they went south to Khan Yunis where Israel told them they would be safe, then Israel started bombing Khan Yunis.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632472#Comment_121632472

Been over this. In all the pages so far:

• only 1 poster who says he has been to 2 protests said he saw or heard (can’t quite recall) something about releasing hostages.

another posted a video of someone holding up a Hamas Out type placard and the person was chased away.

A mob chased away the anti Iranian protester in London who had been camped outside the Iranian embassy for a long time.

I watched one. Nothing to criticise Hamas. The Gazans who want rid of Hamas have no direct support on these marches.

Thats it. Every other march I have looked at nothing, naddah but sure you attack me and ignore the glaring point that Hamas escape public criticism at these marches. Why?

Why would you not want to at the very least concede that Hamas are a problem to peace in Gaza? Why take the approach you did? Baffling.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632469#Comment_121632469

Well given the IDF weren’t doing it on 6th October I think it’s fair.

Accuses me of speculation whilst speculating.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632728#Comment_121632728

There was "Free Gaza from Hamas" posters at a pro-Israeli march.

But since Israel are now Nazi's those signs were evil and genocidal.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632879#Comment_121632879

With innocent Gazans being killed very day and Israel in front of ICJ it seems strange to focus on what protestors have on their posters/placards.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633127#Comment_121633127

Yes especially when those signs actually want Hamas dealt with.

No way can that be considered.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633138#Comment_121633138

But is that the most pressing matter now? I get in peacetime this would be very concerning.

But in a time when women and kids are being killed every day and Israel is defending a charge possible war crimes I don't think the protestors thousands of miles away are displaying in their placards are of much import.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633218#Comment_121633218

What war crime charge has been lodged?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633218#Comment_121633218

Well, the reason there's a war is because Hamas basically run Gaza as a base for their war with Israel, rather than as a normal country. They've been misappropriating funds destined for civilian use to build their tunnels for years, for instance. They launched the attack on Oct 7th in order to provoke Israel into a military response.

So while they're in place in Gaza, there won't ever really be peace because Hamas don't want peace.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633301#Comment_121633301

Sorry I meant the icj case allegation of genocide, I was typing quickly

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633343#Comment_121633343

Hamas are the reason for this current bout of conflict but the wars between arabs and Israelis existed before hamas and will continue after them. I don't think killing 20k odd civilians will bring peace to the country regardless what happens to hamas.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633371#Comment_121633371

"Hamas are the reason for this current bout of conflict" - well then, posters against them being held up at marches for peace are not "strange" at all, or shouldn't be. What do you think a one-sided ceasefire from Israel could possibly achieve other than to allow Hamas to regroup and start all over again?

Or are Israel not allowed to defend themselves against murders by Hamas?

combat14

hard to believe we are now seeing pakistan strikes on iranian territory

further US strikes on houthi pirates

even jordanian strikes in syria

hamas and iran have set off a chain of events that no one predicted

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633424#Comment_121633424

I have a problem with Israel killing 20k odd civilians and that figure is only going up. Their methods are not protecting civilian life and will only produce the next generation of terrorists. People seem to be under the misconception that destroying Hamas will bring peace not taking into account the circumstances that created Hamas.

ollkiller

Thousands of innocent civilians get killed...................but look at the wording on that placard thousands of miles away. The wording on the placard. Oh my God. How can you hold that placard? How?

Seriously? Is this what you throw back as defence of Israel's actions now. Pathetic.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633453#Comment_121633453

But we're not talking about Israel here - this is about people objecting to Hamas. In the west.

Hamas whom you agree started this particular bout of violence in which Gazans are dying by the thousand. Hamas who have murdered hundreds of Palestinian opponents in Gaza. Who for years have been misappropriating UN funds for refugees in order to maintain their war against Israel.

You're literally saying that nobody should protest against Hamas starting the war until - what? Until Israel have been forced by western pressure to give up and allow Hamas to regroup and do it all again - as they've promised to? That'll work.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633661#Comment_121633661

No I'm saying the protests are pretty irrelevant to the situation in Gaza, i couldnt give a rats what they have on their placards. Protests or even the ICJ won't stop Israel doing anything only the US.

I'm more concerned about civilians being killed, hostages being released and Hamas being removed. I'm also concerned that the civilian deaths will cause another terrorist organisation to Spring up after this operation.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633699#Comment_121633699

It sounds as though you think an absence of a military response from Israel would have let Hamas just die out. It seems to me that that would inevitably have led to more such attacks, not just from Hamas in Gaza but also in the West Bank and from Hezbollah in Lebanon.

I'd love to hear your thinking about what Israel should have done instead on Oct 8th and afterwards, that would have led to peace?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633728#Comment_121633728

Not kill 20k civilians. Not continue to use methods that are resulting in such large civilian casualties. Not kill 6k kids and think that peace will be possible after.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633743#Comment_121633743

I didn't ask what they shouldn't have done. You've already made your thinking on that clear.

I asked what you think they should have done? For the moment, it seems your answer is "nothing". Would that be right?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633752#Comment_121633752

Here's my suggestion: assassinate the leaders of hamas or perhaps allow civilians to leave gaza provide them safe haven in Israel before bombing the place.

What so you support? kill 20k civilians, kill 6k kids, build support for the next terrorist group there, not allow civilians to leave?

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633641#Comment_121633641

No it’s not a defence of Israel’s actions and literally no one said it was. Don’t make stuff up please.

Really hopeless when posters jump in with both feet and don’t bother reading the thread first.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633772#Comment_121633772

How long would you have given Israel to implement your displacement suggestion before they started bombing? How do you prevent Hamas from infiltrating with the Gazans moving somewhere (Israel, Egypt,...)

Because I think if you work it through, you'd be talking months before Israel could begin the offense to get the hostages back. Should the Israeli people wait months? Why should Hamas let hostages go while the Gazans leave Gaza? They can strut and preen online showing how much tougher than Israel, and give their crazed associates like the Houthis time to organize for an eventual Israeli attack.

As we've seen in the past weeks, it takes awhile and a great deal of planning (and luck) to blithely assassinate anyone, certainly Hamas buried in Lebanon or Qatar.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632572#Comment_121632572

I'm pretty sure that they have achieved at least some of their objectives by now. If this was Vladimir Putin, he would have finished his " Special Gaza military Operation" in weeks, never mind months. The problem with Putin's method is that all of Gaza would be in rubble. All of it, and the surrounding area as well. And the tunnels (assuming anyone was still alive in them) would be inoperable as all of Gaza would be resting on top of them. Now Hamas hides amongst the general population, and cry "Murderous Jews" when they are attacked. There was an anti-Vietnam singer / song writer who wrote songs, and one verse reminds me of the current situation in Gaza. It goes something like this:- " Every night the local gentry slips out past the sleeping sentry, they go to play at VC, in this little nightly drama, they put on their black pajamas' and come throwing mortar shells at me."

He could well have been writing about Hamas.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633843#Comment_121633843

We dont know how successful exactly the hostage recovery operation will be until the end of the operation but it is a fact that they successfully released about 100 at the end of November and none since. The breakdown of negotiations since that ceasefire ended has made it very unlikely that the hostages will survive this conflict.

Do I think it would have been worthwhile to wait to bomb Gaza. Yes of course if it resulted in a much reduced civilian death total. The gazans will be looking for revenge for their casualties for years to come. Hamas destroyed with a much reduced civilian casualty rate would be a win for everyone.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633446#Comment_121633446

Oh, I'd say that it has worked beyond their wildest dreams, problem now for Hamas (and others too) has it worked only too well? Now Muslims killing other Muslims? They have put a match to a tinder dry forest. And in some cases, nothing to do with Palestine either.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633843#Comment_121633843

Should the Israeli people wait months for what? Revenge?

And is that time worth civilian lives? There's no need to kill Hamas immediately. They're boxed in and surrounded by larger forces than they have been at any time. Israel could take time. they could formulate a plan. They could bide their time and go after leaders when the opportunity arises. They could start negotiating/planning with moderates what a post hamas gaza looks like. Israel has shown throughout it's history that it's willing to bide it's time and go after it's enemies. Israel didn't need to bomb start bombing the city as fast as they did. They bombed the city because they wanted to. They started immediately because they wanted to.

ollkiller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633786#Comment_121633786

It's been used countless times throughout this thread to deflect with a "look over here" tactic.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633996#Comment_121633996

"Should the Israeli people wait months for what? Revenge?"

Israel acted to get the hostages back. Should they have waited? What would've happened to the hostages then?

AlanG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632612#Comment_121632612

The ISW rerports have been so one sided and their wording so baised that it really makes me question their analysis of the Ukraine war. You can even see in the above how they talk about the palestinians being agressive and not really the IDF. All the IDF ever seem to do according to the ISW is drop aid. They also rarely report IDF casualties.