Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

nacho libre

How weak is Joe Biden. I am not saying this as some fanboy of Donald Trump, but the fact that Bibi had the audacity to release that statement shows how weak he is. Some will try to spin it otherwise but its clear to see.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639464#Comment_121639464

Mad stuff? It's not that mad considering what men are capable of and atrocities that have been committed in the past. Would you say the crimes of isis was mad stuff? That all happened though didn't it?

I expect the denier line to pivot to "ok it did happen but it wasn't as bad as they say" and eventually end up at "well they deserved it", sometime soon.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639538#Comment_121639538

What I don't get is why people who support Palestine are out for Biden's blood, calling him "genocide Joe" and the like. Zero joined-up thinking going on there it seems: if Biden's left wing don't vote for him because of his comments about Israel's right to defend itself from murderous attacks on its civilians, the result will be Trump gets back into office.

Going by Trump's past record on the question, does anyone really think he's going to have any sympathy at all for the Palestinians?? Unlike Biden, Trump would probably push actively in support of the demands of the most extreme wing of Israeli politics.

So why are Democrats trying to wreck Biden's chances of re election with exaggerated claims about his position on this? Another example of preferring ideological purity over actually being in power?

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639185#Comment_121639185

Sigh.

Millions have fled the ME over the past number of years. Your position appears to be that they should never have wanted to leave. You sitting in your armchair in Ireland know best.

Who are you to tell them how they ought to think?

Why should they not be given a choice? Why is this contentious?

Not that it’s any of your business but my family have represented Ireland in two different sports. My great grandparents haven’t killed anyone AFAIK so no presumably your opinions are superior.

Another thing, earlier in the thread I posted some suggestions for the day after the war ends. Have you anything constructive to say in this regard, ie, about the future?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638657#Comment_121638657

Refer to page 1

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638657#Comment_121638657

And so is the IDF soldier - his head looks remarkably intact to me.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638706#Comment_121638706

Says the wannabe IDF soldier

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638728#Comment_121638728

You appear you be having trouble with the truth. A photo of a rude looking IDF soldier with a beaming smile.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638821#Comment_121638821

Funny how it happened 4 months ago and yet the Israelis are only inviting the UN in now?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638828#Comment_121638828

Ah - apologies - I'm too old to know what that acronym stands for.

I will thanks.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639695#Comment_121639695

Well due to the fact that Hamas recorded their atrocities you probably could find a photo of his beheaded corpse if you're into that sort of thing.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639737#Comment_121639737

Probably due to the level of denial going on. Who would have expected that? I mean there are people who claim there's not enough evidence of the mass slaughter of Jews during the holocaust. They aren't going to go through that again.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638946#Comment_121638946

You picked one of his more toned down quotes.

He's even too much for the British Jews

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639723#Comment_121639723

You forgot to mention that he is “brown” which is why his photo was originally put up.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639071#Comment_121639071

"Never again" as in the link below referencing Genocide?

Oh dear...

Never again - Wikipedia

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639221#Comment_121639221

ICJ takes cases between States/Countries. ICC can prosecute individuals and other "groups"

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639538#Comment_121639538

That *is* very interesting. Is Netanyahu desperate? Is Biden weak? Both?

If the proposed EU plan and/or US demands are taken up, the prison bars look an awful lot closer for Netanyahu. Even if he avoids prison, the Israelis are going to boot him out anyway for failing them utterly.

As for Biden, I read a month or two ago that the Muslims in the US were pressuring him and their numbers (votes) are not insignificant. Could be the difference between four more years or four more of Donald Trump (not the real one, he's on these boards).

But Biden has a lot going on domestically and personally.

If Blinken is his true mouthpiece, I could imagine Biden and his advisors are playing the long game. Israel/Palestine has been going on for 75 years and has never resulted in a satisfactory outcome for either the Israelis or the Palestinians. This will not be fixed in a year or two.

Its certainly the dynamic to watch carefully - hopefully its the long game rather than a short political win. Both the Israelis and Palestinians deserve peace. They should get it.

dmcdona

Speaking of Netanyahu. Here's a clip of him, oh, err, using the phrase "from the river to the sea". Well that's inconvenient for a lot of people...

https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1748055527911727356

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639764#Comment_121639764

probably due to the level of denial going on

Sorry - you've lost me on that one. I didn't know that the denial of an event had any impact on whether it could be investigated or not? Did someone in Israel deny it - is that what you're saying?

Since these events happened in Israel, I can't see any reason why a full investigation wouldn't already be well under way, if not fully completed.

Four months seems an awful long time to invite the UN in.

Israel is still not allowing independent journalists into Gaza (paywall):

Citing security concerns, justices reject Foreign Press Association petition for entry into Strip without IDF escort, say army doing enough for press freedom

By TOI STAFF

10 January 2024, 4:20 pm

Israel’s military can continue barring foreign journalists from accessing the Gaza Strip, the High Court said Monday, citing ongoing security concerns after months in which only Gazans or correspondents accompanied by the army have been able to report from inside the enclave.

The Foreign Press Association, which had filed a petition seeking to force the Israel Defense Forces to open a crossing into the Strip so non-Israeli reporters could enter, slammed the ruling Tuesday, saying the “ban on independent foreign press access to Gaza… [was] unprecedented.”

The association filed the petition last month, arguing that it was “in the public interest to get a fuller picture of conditions inside Gaza after 10 weeks of extremely limited and highly controlled access.”

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639858#Comment_121639858

Well Bibi with this announcement is giving Biden and Blinken the two fingers. He knows well Biden won't abandon Israel. With this statement he shores up his own support base at the same time. So he is safe in the short term from a cabinet split

Long term I would never discount Bibi, he is a political cockroach. If Israel does manage to inflict a total defeat on Hamas and bring home the remaining hostages home public support could yet swing in his favour. However unlikely it seems at the moment.

Biden currently look weak among the left of his party.

It's all very well playing the long game but it risks him not being elected.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639755#Comment_121639755

I'm not into that sort of thing at all.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640258#Comment_121640258

So does the Jewish Israeli soldier meet your definition of "brown"?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640089#Comment_121640089

Yes - I do wonder if the sound bites from the US are just for public consumption and the back room reality is different.

Netanyahu is certainly a very shrewd politician. I think the ICJ case (interim measures) will have a huge impact on what happens next for the War Cabinet - whichever way it goes. That could be the turning point.

Biden will of course do the numbers. His election campaign is critical. That is what he'll focus on.

It would be a tragedy if short term politics deny the Israelis and Palestinians peace.

dmcdona

Did someone say "never again"?

Genocide evidence racks up:

"Images of Israeli troops cheering as educational institutions were blown up went viral on social media, including one showing the complete demolition of a distinctive blue UN school in northern Gaza.

Such incidents have led to accusations of "collective punishment" - that Israel is methodically and deliberately destroying institutions including schools in retaliation for what happened when armed Hamas gunmen stormed over the Gaza fence on 7 October."

"Nisreen Abu Nimr is also from northern Gaza. She is married, and was a mother to two children, one of whom was killed in a bombing earlier in the war. Nisreen has also been suffering from cancer since 2016.

"I was receiving regular medical treatment for my cancer at a hospital here in Gaza. But, during the Israeli aggression, medical treatments haven't been provided for four months," says Nisreen."

"The United Nations' Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs (Ocha) publishes regular bulletins on the impact of the war, and they make for grim reading.

Its latest updates say that at least 60% of homes or housing units in Gaza have been "destroyed or damaged". Nine in every 10 schools have suffered "significant damage". Hospitals, public buildings and electricity networks have also been hit"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68023080

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639594#Comment_121639594

Trump would certainly be directly worse, but I could foresee international acceptance for Israel's campaign drying up very quickly once the Trump name is attached. Under Biden the Democrat there is at least a veneer of decency that makes it very hard for western governments to criticise, Trump might however prove to be what Hamas was for Bibi

Overheal

but don't call it genocide...

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640563#Comment_121640563

That seems highly speculative, to the point of recklessness, given all the other ways it could go instead.

Do you really think that's the calculation that people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Rashida Tlaib are making? It would be stunningly self-sacrificing of them to offer up their own party in hopes of some sort of crash-and-burn from Trump over Israel.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639858#Comment_121639858

I was at an event where Biden spoke (in Dundalk) and I firmly believe that he is bordering on dementia. Obviously he's being tutored on what to say and his opinions are not his own now.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639890#Comment_121639890

So its okay for Netanyahu to say this but nobody else? It strikes me in the same way when we hear posters saying that Israel has a right to defend itself ..... but obviously Palestine has not.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640577#Comment_121640577

That's just how I see it myself. To clarify, I don't want to see that either, it's just how I think it could go if Trump gets elected

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640577#Comment_121640577

If Democrats don't criticize Biden for something worth criticizing over, then they're not really being very democratic.

Fact is, even if I want to vote for him in November, the situation in Israel makes it that much harder to have conversations with other voters and reason with them to do the same, especially if they turn around and mention their whole family was wiped out by the IDF etc.

Gotta call balls and strikes, and right now Biden is on Ball 3 here (4 balls is an out), only in recent days has he upped the milquetoast temperature against bibi for exit plans, a 2 state solution, etc., has a lot of ground to pick up after initial months of backing Israel with State hitting the yamulke photo ops hard and declaring they had suffered "10 9/11's etc" and just sure as **** as the morning I heard that line, I knew we were in for 10+ Fallujahs, which has occurred over the last 100+ days

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639071#Comment_121639071

So that is a valid excuse to murder thousands of women and children?? Jesus !!

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640647#Comment_121640647

Given the umpteen pages of Israeli supporters outraged at the phrase "from the river to the sea", I suspect they will be on here soon denouncing Netanyahu in equal measure.

Or not.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640701#Comment_121640701

"never again ..."

" ... to us."

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640662#Comment_121640662

I think that's a constant tension within any party though - how far does someone continue to support their party despite certain differences of opinion? Isn't that supposedly part of why Hillary Clinton lost to Trump in 2016, due to left wingers preferring Bernie Sanders over Clinton?

But in this case, it's so obvious that the alternative, Trump, takes an extreme pro-Zionist approach, too extreme for many Israelis, that I just don't get it. Is there no concept of "the lesser evil" any more?

Biden is trying to push the Israelis to reduce the civilian death toll, with some success, and Netanyahu is so unpopular in Israel that Gantz would win a massive majority if there were an election tomorrow, which would be better for peace than the sort of right wing government favoured by Trump. A future Biden administration would be well-placed in the event of a more moderate Israeli government. A Trump administration would despise them and push the point of view of the right wingers.

And yet no, a section of the Dems and their supporters really do seem to prefer ideological purity to having their party in power.

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640688#Comment_121640688

Journalists too, https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-01-08-24/h_36c59d49bc593dbf45d28770509b8845 and lots of them. No doubt the usual suspects will be quick to chime in with their opinions on why they all got what they deserved.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639737#Comment_121639737

So is this a suggestion that the rapes didn't happen? If not, what's your point?

tayto lover

If Trump is elected then I can see the UK taking a step back with regards to Israel. Trump is hated in the UK. His support for Israel and Netanyahu might actually help the Palestinians in the long run. Very few countries would seek to be associated with those two.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640787#Comment_121640787

Except my question was why would Democrats like Ocasio-Cortez allow Trump to gain from this, in an election year?

Not some random attempt to find an upside for anybody else if Trump gets in.

dmcdona

US responses today (Haaretz):

The White House said that the U.S. will not stop working toward a two-state solution, and that there will be no post-war Israeli reoccupation of Gaza.

U.S. State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said there is "no way" to solve Israel's long-term security challenges in the region and the short-term challenges of rebuilding Gaza without the establishment of a Palestinian state

Also: Palestinian health officials said a Palestinian-American teenager, 17, was killed by IDF fire in the West Bank during clashes with the Israeli army that included stone-throwing by Palestinians.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640933#Comment_121640933

The fact they are now turning to Trump to be the saviour that turns the tide is even funnier than the person who can't comprehend a person alive in a photo can actually be dead in real life!

dmcdona

International responses today (Haaretz):

Mexico and Chile referred the Israel-Hamas war for investigation by the International Criminal Court over possible war crimes, expressing "growing worry" over the escalating violence in Gaza.

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said he had urged Netanyahu to "drastically" reduce the level of violence against Palestinians and to immediately pause fighting to let more aid into Gaza.

Russia's Foreign Ministry said it had received a Hamas delegation and had urged it to release hostages being held in Gaza, including three Russian nationals.

EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell said Israel financed the creation of Hamas in a bid to weaken the Palestinian Authority.

dmcdona

Israeli responses today (Haaretz):

30 Israeli civil society groups, led by Standing Together and Women Wage Peace, held a protest against the ongoing war in Gaza in Tel Aviv on Thursday. Over 2,000 people participated in the demonstration. Demonstrators demanding the release of Israeli hostages held by Hamas blocked Tel Aviv's key Ayalon highway, and Israeli police arrested seven people during the rally. According to organizers, some of those arrested were relatives of Israeli hostages. Dozens of women also marched in Tel Aviv on Friday morning, alongside family members of hostages, calling for their immediate release from Gaza.

War cabinet minister Gadi Eisenkot said in a Channel 12 News interview that Netanyahu bears "clear-cut" responsibility for the failures of October 7, and that cabinet members had prevented a decision to preemptively strike Hezbollah in Lebanon in the wake of the Hamas attack

"The more murderous and dangerous the situation in Gaza becomes, the more disconnected from the events the behavior of the prime minister and the cabinet ministers looks" - Amos Harel (Haaretz journalist)

dmcdona

Guesses anyone?

Swiss prosecutors confirmed that Israeli President Isaac Herzog had been the subject of criminal complaints during his visit to Davos, as Israel finds itself accused of committing war crimes in Gaza.

“The criminal complaints will be examined according to the usual procedure,” the Office of the Swiss Attorney General said on Friday, adding that it would contact the Swiss foreign ministry to examine the question of immunity of the individual concerned.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640958#Comment_121640958

I wonder how that will all go if the "progressive" wing of the Democratic party ensures that the 2025 White House is Trump's. What do we think they'll be saying then about "working toward a two-state solution"? Or about whether or not Israel should reoccupy Gaza after the war?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640965#Comment_121640965

LOL - But not as funny as you! Gas man!

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640933#Comment_121640933

Did I quote your post? No is the answer. I gave my own opinion on what would happen if Trump gets in.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640965#Comment_121640965

Nobody is relying on that madman at all. I gave an opinion on what I think will happen if he's elected. Read the posts properly please. It's not that difficult.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640966#Comment_121640966

The entire world will turn against these murderers. They had the sympathy of most countries after Oct 7th but their own murderous nature got the better of them. It was nothing more than revenge and a land-grab.

tayto lover

Cracks are starting to appear among Netanyahu and people in the War Cabinet -

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68035744