Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

dmcdona

Netanyahu has jeopardised the release of hostages. More than a faux pas.

He is a serious liability to Israel - so no change there then.

Haaretz

CEASE-FIRE NEGOTIATIONS: The U.S. believes that the leaked recording of PM Netanyahu criticizing Qatar set hostage negotiation efforts back, a U.S. State Department spokesperson said, adding that "Qatar has been an integral, irreplaceable, key regional partner."

Dick phelan

If Hamas would release the hostages it would surely intensify the pressure on Israel. As long as they don't Israel will use it as the main reason for the bombing. Hamas do not want this war to end.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677836#Comment_121677836

If that is the case, then it indicates the IDF is failing to realise Bibi's objective thus far. As otherwise Hamas would surely be looking for a way out.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677836#Comment_121677836

Good point. That seems to be the Hamas position. They are using them as a bargaining chip, as they always have.

There is hope though that the 30 day pause, with specified Israeli and Palestinian releases, will calm things down enough to allow humanitarian aid to get into Gaza.

Once all hostages are released, Israel will still continue their action against Hamas.

But with the levelling of Gaza, you'd have to question the Israeli bona fides about their actions solely being associated with hostage releases and Hamas destruction.

I can't see how bulldozing cemeteries or demolishing universities and courthouses are aligned to those objectives.

And neither did the ICJ.

dmcdona

Haaretz

GAZA: UNRWA said it is investigating the alleged involvement of several of its employees in Hamas' October 7 massacre, and that it had severed ties with these staff members. The U.S. said it is "extremely troubled by the allegations," and that it will suspend funding to UNRWA as it reviews the charges and "the steps the UN is taking to address them."

dmcdona

Anyone know why the UN special representative on sexual violence is going to the West Bank?

Haaretz

The U.S. has created a channel with Israel to discuss concerns over incidents in Gaza in which civilians have been killed or wounded by the IDF or civilian facilities have been targeted, two U.S. officials told Reuters.

The UN special representative on sexual violence in conflict will arrive in Israel on Monday to collect information on crimes committed by Hamas terrorists on October 7and will also visit the West Bank, her office said.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677147#Comment_121677147

Not sure if that was a rhetorical question but, yes, Gallant stated today that the SA submission was antisemitic.

The fact the Israeli ad hoc judge voted for two of the findings against Israel seems to have been lost on him.

Markus Antonius

Netenyahu makes the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion look like The Hungry Catarpillar

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121676543#Comment_121676543

cheap shot really but sure got a couple of likes.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121676702#Comment_121676702

You’re not big into making evidence based judgements are you?

batman75

One incursion by Hamas into Israel on October 7 2023 , however horrific, doesn't justify Israeli genocide of the Gaza population. It doesn't justify the Israeli invoking of self defence. It does not justify that monster Netanyahu invoking the holocaust and never again. The ICJ hasn't used the word genocide in its ruling but by it's detailed ruling it has in effect. For Israel to be accused of genocide, even indirectly, is a devastating ruling especially given how the very modern state of Israel came into being. It also has potentially devastating consequences for genocide Joe Biden as he seeks to be re-elected.

To think that an American president could be directly linked/implicated to genocide is mind boggling. The worry is that Trump is equally wedded to Israel and would most likely give them a blank cheque to continue slaughtering Palestinians.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678886#Comment_121678886

“It doesn't justify the Israeli invoking of self defence.”

Eh?

I can see how other posters can argue that the actions of the IDF may go beyond self defence but to suggest self defence after Oct 7th is not justified is completely unreasonable.

Sometimes posters make good and fair points and the chuck in dumb stuff which ruins it.

batman75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678959#Comment_121678959

Self defence is taking targeted action against those that hurt you. What Israel is doing is genocide. It goes way beyond self defence. You can't claim self defence as you commit mass murder of innocent civilians.

tayto lover

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0126/1428829-tanaiste-icj/

We could soon be accused of being an antisemitic country too.

Antipathetic

That term is becoming a bit like being called a racist when you argue for limits on immigration and border control. The term is so overused now that it has lost all of its original meaning.

tayto lover

(CNN) Pressure mounting on Netanyahu =

And in Israel, Netanyahu faces domestic opposition: More than 40 senior former Israeli national security officials, celebrated scientists and prominent business leaders have sent a letter to Israel’s president and speaker of parliament demanding that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu be removed from office for posing what they say is an “existential” threat to the country. They say Netanyahu is responsible for “creating the circumstances” that led to the massacre in Israel on October 7. “The victim’s blood is on Netanyahu’s hands,” the letter reads. It comes as other political figures have also called for fresh elections, saying the public has no trust in its government.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679341#Comment_121679341

Israel seem quite adept to following the Russian way of thinking and acting. Maybe they introduce a law where you can't criticize the government of their 'Special Military Operation - SMO'. Or as the ICJ has ruled, Potential Genocidal War - PGW

Side note, the public elected the government, despite them not having the majority of public support. Isn't that how it works? Guilt by election?

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679035#Comment_121679035

See that’s a different argument than saying it didn’t justify self defence. At least your revised position is arguable. What you said above was not. Glad you have caught on now.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679201#Comment_121679201

What does the map image in your footer mean given you are an expert in what antisemitic means?

tom1ie

Is it not obvious that the more Israel try and crush a Palestinian insurgence (as they see it) the more they are actually turning Palestinians against them along with moderates around the world.

I mean it’s fairly obvious no?

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677716#Comment_121677716

So you think Biden is still popular in Ireland? I doubt it.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679859#Comment_121679859

Incredibly obvious, we've been saying that even here from the very start.

And of course the reason it's so obvious is because that's what their government want, no real peace, just further excuses/cover to continue their ethnic cleansing and settling of the West Bank

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679859#Comment_121679859

Possibly but what is the alternative for Israel and how would plan for the day after?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675575#Comment_121675575

Eh no, I don't think you actually read the ruling. Don't be fooled by the spin being put on this ruling by pro-Palestinian media.

What the court said was ""At least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the (Genocide) Convention,". Key words in that sentence from a legal point of view are "alleged" thereby not proven, and "appear to be capable of", which again is less than what you think it is. Certainly, the ICJ did not

Go back to what I have said all along:

(1) The hostages taken on October 7th must be immediately released because that is a war crime - The ICJ ruled that they must be released immediately and unconditionally. I was correct on that point. Incidentally, the ICJ made no mention of Palestinian prisoners in Israel, despite the numerous posts on here claiming they were the same. So pretty much I was correct again about that being a red herring.

(2) Israel has a right to defend itself against the October 7th terrorist attack and is entitled to enter Gaza to do so - By not ordering a ceasefire, the ICJ have confirmed this to be the case. Once again, I was correct under international law.

(3) There is no proof that Israel has committed war crimes or genocide given the nature of its self-defence - This is a direct quote from the court ruling: "The court does not have the evidence to decide whether or not Israel has committed genocide in Gaza, but directs Israel to comply with its obligations under the Genocide Convention—to which Israel, as a party to the Genocide Convention since 1950, has long committed itself." Once again, in pointing out that Israel's acts would need investigation and that there are doubts that they broke international law (unlike the clear and unequivocal evidence that Hamas broke international law), and that it would take a long time to determine this under international law, I was also correct.

Now, remember, I haven't posted on this since before Christmas, I was fed up with the constant lies and clearly anti-semitic posts which didn't understand international law, and remember, I also said that I wasn't expressing support for what Israel was doing (despite attempts to label me as such).

Finally, the ICJ is a court under the United Nations. Today, the United Nations is facing a crisis, as it appears that one of its agencies was complicit in the committal of terrorist actions. If anything poses a challenge to international law, it is that the self-proclaimed arbiter of international law took part in illegal terrorist actions.

Don't bother replying as I won't be engaging with the nonsense on this thread, just here to point out that I was correct in what I said about international law all along.

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679826#Comment_121679826

I don't remember where I claimed to be an expert in the meaning of the word "antisemitic" perhaps you could point out where I claimed to be an expert in this subject?

To answer your first question for me the image in my signature means that for me. I would like to see Israel and Palestine peacefully coexisting one day, hopefully within my lifetime I would like to see both nations living side-by-side in peace. Perhaps in a style similar to nations in Europe that are part of Schengen where people can freely cross between both nations.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680553#Comment_121680553

I think it was obvious they just have evacuated civilians from Gaza before bombing the place, it would had taken time but at the moment sure they can kill militants with bombs but only at the cost of killing a lot of innocents. They probably just count every male killed of military age as a militant.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680781#Comment_121680781

That isn't the meaning of your signature.

Your signature is an expression of the desire of Hamas and others to wipe out all Jews from the river to the sea. In fact, by including that signature, you are implicitly supporting the genocide of the Jews.

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680812#Comment_121680812

So is it okay when the Israeli Prime Minister used similar wording in a recent speech he gave? If I'm not mistaken, he said along the lines of everything west of the River Jordan should be Israeli.

I've already explained how I see the meaning of the words in my signature and I'm sure many others share similar sentiments. Remember which country is under investigation by the ICJ for genocide.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680832#Comment_121680832

There's no sign of coexistence in your signature. None. Can you show where Israel fits in there?

(I'm surprised it's allowed actually - it looks to me like an open declaration for the elimination of the Jewish state.)

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680781#Comment_121680781

Why not find a graphic of the two flags side by side if thats what you want your signature to demonstrate? There's no coexistence in a map with just one flag.

And to answer your later question no its not ok when Netanyahu/Likud use it (or a version of) either.

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680958#Comment_121680958

Can you tell me how the Palestinian people and state fit in with Israel now that the Israeli Prime Minister has openly declared in a recent speech he wants Israel to extend all the way west from the River Jordan?

Remember, he is the one in charge of a country that is currently under investigation for breaching the Geneva Convention, the International Court of Justice didn't strike out South Africa's case against Israel.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680781#Comment_121680781

You claim that your signature calls for a two-state solution, but it clearly does not. In both word and the shape of the flag, no reasonable person could look at that and come to any conclusion other than it's a call to destroy Israel in its entirety.

As to Likud having a similar policy about Israeli sovereignty, I'm not a shill for Likud and I care little whether Israel has a "left" or "right" wing government. But it's funny that you defend your genocidal call to eliminate Israel by pointing fingers at the very people you're trying to wipe out.

Ultimately the question is whether Israel (being about 1% of the Middle East and leaving the other 99+% for Arabs, Persians etc) should exist at all. Your sig makes it clear that you are with Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis etc.

cheese sandwich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681065#Comment_121681065

Whataboutery

cheese sandwich

It turns out that there was some basis for the Israelis’ claim that the UN is institutionally anti semetic after all

Hoboo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679114#Comment_121679114

As you and I know being anti-Israeli policy is not the same as being antisemitic, so let it be like water off a ducks back. We can easily identify who/what we’re dealing with when they make such ignorant comments.

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681136#Comment_121681136

It was a handful of employees. If I remember correctly, the figure was something like 0.4% of staff in the UN relief agency that is hardly institutionally anti-Semitic, but then again, the supporters of Israel have to grasp at straws to try and distract from the ICJ ruling yesterday.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680450#Comment_121680450

I didn't say whether he was popular or not. I don't know point you are trying to make.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681065#Comment_121681065

Different question: I haven't tried to defend that at all. FYI I'm not an admirer of Netanyahu or Likud, and have said before that IMO Netanyahu should be in prison.

But my question was about YOUR sig, not about Netanyahu: if you are for coexistence of both Israel and Palestine, as you claim, then why does your sig show the flag of Palestine alone over the whole area? Where is Israel in that?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681136#Comment_121681136

Yes, the Italy, Canada, Australia and the US are now being joined by the UK in pausing funding for UNRWA over concerns its people might have been involved in the 7th of October attacks. Meanwhile, our politicians want to join in the pile-on on Israel.

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681186#Comment_121681186

Israel is still under investigation by the ICJ, a small amount of employees in one UN agency doesn't change that fact. I'm glad our government is considering joining the case against Israel and supporting South Africa as I said before, supporters of Israel really are having to grasp at straws to try and distract from yesterday.

I'm disappointed in Canada pulling funding from the UNRWA, but the rest of the American lapdogs don't surprise me.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681103#Comment_121681103

In both word and the shape of the flag, no reasonable person could look at that and come to any conclusion other than it's a call to destroy Israel in its entirety.

That's a bit of a stretch for a reasonable person. I can see how it would trigger the Israeli far right and its followers though.

Do you agree that Likud's use of the phrase and the map of Israel they used, covered in the Israeli flag is equally a call to destroy all Palestinians in their entirety?

Antipathetic

I've never been a fan of this current government but credit where credit is due. I'm glad they are not suspending support for the UN relief agency.

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1751239351579681179

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681212#Comment_121681212

Australia is a US lapdog? Do you have any clue at all about geopolitics?

As for the idea that this is about a small number of employees whose unsuitability was accidentally missed in the recruitment process, that is not what this is about at all.

The allegation is that the only way for an NGO to function in Gaza is to have Hamas oversight of recruitment, so that groups like UNWRA are completely under the thumb of Hamas, who put "their" people in whatever jobs they want them to have. So that the "small number" of employees for whom there is evidence that they actively participated in terrorist actions is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the support within UNWRA for Hamas.

Does this seem unlikely to you? I mean - do you think that Hamas are too nice to manipulate groups like UNWRA for their own terrorist agenda or something? That just wouldn't be cricket, is that it?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679341#Comment_121679341

The more pressure on Netanyahu, the more he'll order death and destruction onto the residents of Gaza. He's like any dictator now, he sees his meal ticket as war. As long as there's war, he can keep his arse in the seat.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681186#Comment_121681186

Utterly predictable smear campaign by Israel, right out of Putin's playbook.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681288#Comment_121681288

There's been a consistent tactic from Israel the last months to demonise, threaten and in some cases outright kill anyone who doesn't come under the direct control of their b***h the US.

The UN, Red Cross, even Ireland, but especially journalists, anyone who might arouse general international opposition to their ethnic cleansing/possible genocide campaign gets discredited or silenced.

And of course there are useful idiots online who lap it up, it's the exact same as the Russians do

dmcdona

I understand that 12 UNWRA staff are alleged to have been involved in Oct 7th. I've seen no details reported of the nature of their involvement.

Good that UN is investigating and will hold anyone accountable for their actions.

So far, 153 UN staff have been killed in Gaza.

Source: AP 26 Jan

U.N. spokesman Stephane Dujarric said Friday that Guterres was briefed on the allegations earlier this week by Philippe Lazzarini, the commissioner-general of the U.N. agency dealing with Palestinian refugees known as UNRWA.

The secretary-general asked the Office of Internal Oversight Services, the U.N.’s internal watchdog, to launch an investigation “to establish the truth without delay,” Dujarric said.

“Any employee of UNRWA who is involved in acts of terror will be held accountable including through criminal prosecution,” he said.

Dujarric said 153 U.N. staff have perished during the Israeli-Hamas war and some 13,000 UNRWA staff are “all working to their best of their ability to deliver humanitarian aid.”

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681325#Comment_121681325

I've posted this before in the thread but the deliberate killing of journalists is something that really strikes me. For a country that regularly claims to be, and praises itself for being, the only democracy in the region - to intentionally kill journalists is really beyond the pale.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681424#Comment_121681424

And unlike the UN there doesn't seem to be any Israeli investigations into this. Maybe they were just carrying out Netanyahu's and Givr's orders?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681424#Comment_121681424

It's not Israel that defines itself as such, it's an objective measurement of the facts on the ground:

The state of Democracy in Middle East and North Africa can be comparatively assessed[1] according to various definitions of democracy.[2] According to The Economist Group's Democracy Index 2022 study, Israel is the only democratic country in the region, qualified as a "flawed democracy" (#29 worldwide). According to the V-Dem Democracy indices, the Middle Eastern and North African countries with the highest scores in 2023 are Israel, Lebanon and Iraq.[3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East_and_North_Africa#:~:text=The%20state%20of%20Democracy%20in,democracy%22%20(%2329%20worldwide).

The claims that they are deliberately targeting journalists need to be objectively evaluated, because many of the journalists based in Gaza are linked to Hamas. Simply because, as I said above about UNWRA, nothing is allowed to happen in Gaza without Hamas people overseeing it. If, say, AFP wants to employ a local journalist, that person will be one of those "approved" by Hamas. And these days that journalist may well be required to make his car and press access available to Hamas fighters if required.