Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757986#Comment_121757986

fair enough. thanks.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757659#Comment_121757659

Can you imagine someone in the Kremlin using that excuse, sure look if we wanted to we could kill a lot more Ukranians. You would rightly dismiss it as grostesque and preposterous. Yet here you are dismissing the deaths of Palestinians civilians as **** happens and just be grateful as Israel could kill a lot more if they really wanted to. Their closest ally has even said they are not doing enough to minimise harm to civilians.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758071#Comment_121758071

Unfortunately there seems to be a suspicion that some of the workers from Gaza gave Hamas details about the kibbutz’s etc, whether under coercion or otherwise, and it might be difficult to get past that in the immediate future. All the more reason for Gaza to build its own economy the day after.

Strazdas

Pat Kenny had an international analyst on this morning talking about how Israel is in thrall to hardcore religious fanatics in government : more akin to a theocracy or dictatorship than anything resembling a western democracy. Says though that the penny is finally starting to drop with the US and UK and others that they are dealing with a bunch of lunatics.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757673#Comment_121757673

Well thats a great ramble.

I was refering to people criticising Joe Biden when the alternative candidate Trump has cheered on Putin taking on NATO. Russia are struggling now but if Trump decides to aid his buddy that would change things considerably, plus it'd be highly unlikely America would continue supporting Ukraine even if it doesn't team up with Russia.

So Trump might save Gaza by virtue of not being Biden but it'd be bad news for Ukraine/Europe.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758175#Comment_121758175

Gaza hasn't been able to nor will it be able to under the current Israeli restrictions. Israel also needs to change it's behaviour towards Gaza and Palestine if there is to be a functioning economy.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758276#Comment_121758276

Even if Trump wins, which is far from certain, Putin won't be conquering eastern Europe. Given the state of the Russian Army. So to suggest that it could happen is hyperbole. Even with a Biden win in November, they seem intent on not giving Ukraine all it needs to win outright, so it's hard to see this war not ending in a negotiated settlement at some point. That is dangerous as it will embolden Putin, but with his forces decimated he won't be in a position to March on a nato country for years to come by that time the likes of Trump will be long gone. If Trump was in power there would be no criticism of Israel coming from the US Government. It's a small mercy that he is not in power.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758350#Comment_121758350

Yes, somebody above said something similar. I concur that it is going to take change and trust on both sides but i do think that, certainly for the short term, the govn of gaza will have to agree not to bear arms. There is precedent in terms of restrictions that were imposed on Germany and Japan and it didn’t seem to do them any harm.

If this were another country that had attacked Israel they might just take it over and that would be that. See previous wars. I don’t think that should be the case here but Hamas should definitely go sooner rather than later.

Toeuptony

https://x.com/Shayan86/status/1757047902814318887?s=20

More lies

Toeuptony

Lies shouted from on high vs the truth being hidden in the doublespeak

https://x.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1757000772703723521?s=20

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757900#Comment_121757900

On the day of the attack, people were delighted with Hamas. Nothing to do with the response.

But you made the point, that Anti-Semitism is justified.

I guess the Nazi's were right all along, eh?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758108#Comment_121758108

Can you imagine someone in the Kremlin using that excuse, sure look if we wanted to we could kill a lot more Ukranians

The Russians are using all available conventional military means to go at Ukraine. The only things left in their locker are WMD's.

Israel could use WMD's and use much more of its conventional military if it chooses to.

But you do realise that Russia and Iran and Hamas are friends here?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758454#Comment_121758454

Which people? I would say most people in the West saw the Hamas attack as a hugely worrying development, one that no good would come of (which is how it has panned out in fact).

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757887#Comment_121757887

Jewish people harassed

Jewish people have gone into hiding

Jewish people receiving death threats

Jewish businesses targetted

Jewish children as young as 5 receiving threats

I am sure you agree its beyond the pale.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758399#Comment_121758399

There is no criticism of the Israeli Gov from the current American President/administration. America is funding the war. I don't see any small mercy with whoever was in office in America.

Frankly I find it bizarre how many Irish people want to boycott everything Israeli but won't boycott or protest America.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758053#Comment_121758053

That would be my position on the matter.

I will say firstly I am no fan of Bibi and some of its government ministers.

I think the Settlements in the West Bank are grossly wrong and just inflame a situation.

However, I blame Hamas and Iran for this war first and foremost.

Palestinians and their leaders need to stop being used and seek out a new non-violent future.

Think Ghandi, think MLK, think the older and wiser Mandela.

If the Palestinians think they can use violence as a means to achieve a political aim, they are sorely wrong, as Israel is just too strong for them, and will do what they think is right in quelling said violence.

Anyone who genuinely wants peace in Gaza should be asking for Hamas to release the hostages and lay down its arms.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758476#Comment_121758476

Israel are not exactly holding back in their use of firepower either. They have used white phosphorous as well as 2000 pounds bombs. Are you also aware that Israel and Russia have worked together in the past.

Bibi also has expressed past admiration for Putin. Israel has not given military aid to Ukraine either. I do realise that the war in Gaza suits Russia, but how does that absolve the IDF for any breaches of International law. Is it excusable to commit wrongdoing because of what someone else maybe doing?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758489#Comment_121758489

Where do we start?

We had an Irish politician proclaim that the attack was a 'beautiful thing'.

From polls, most Palestinians approved of the attacks, this is the biggest issue in of itself. They are brought up hate.

And we now know, there a deep antisemitism in the Arab world that we dismiss. THIS is the main issue of the conflict.

If Palestinians and their neighbours stop hating Jews so much there would be peace.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758504#Comment_121758504

There is criticism but you could be right that it is likely just windowdressing to appease Biden's voting base.

We won't do it because we are beholden to American investment In Ireland. This is what Leo really means when he says we must act in concert with the EU.

ceadaoin.

"Why can't Israel do targeted attacks to take out hamas?" They do targeted attacks and kill some Hamas members and are still in the wrong. "why can't they go in and free the hostages?" They go in and free some hostages and, shockingly, they are still in the wrong.

No matter what Israel do they will always be criticised by those who just hate them. The only country in the world expected not to defend themselves, and if they do go to war, the only country expected not to kill anyone

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758524#Comment_121758524

No matter how you dice it, Russia and Iran and Hamas are one on this.

Just because Israel in the past was nuanced about Russia, doesn't mean it will be so in future.

There is a clear line in the sand here. Between the Democratic Liberal West and the Autocratic tyrannical likes of Iran and Russia.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758549#Comment_121758549

Nuanced you say. You wouldn't be using that word if it was Orban or anyone else expressing admiration for Putin. There is no clear lines in geo politics, the democratic Liberal west fosters relationships with autocratic regimes like Saudia Arabia. In any case this does not excuse those who claim to be western democratic liberals for trying to upend their consitiution to stay in power and excusing viloations of international law on the basis of what their enemies might do.

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758491#Comment_121758491

Jewish people harassed Palestinians being imprisoned

Jewish people have gone into hiding Palestinians having to flea and everything left behind is destroyed

Jewish people receiving death threats Palestinians being killed in their thousands

Jewish businesses targetted Palestinian businesses destroyed or stolen

Jewish children as young as 5 receiving threats Same as 3, Palestinian kids killed in their thousands

I am sure you agree its beyond the pale. It must be very hard for the Israelis (not Jews as you say)

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758598#Comment_121758598

So I guess your great bit of 'whataboutery' justified 5-year-old Jewish kids being harrassed, because of a conflict they have no involvement in, but they are the same ethnicity as one of the actors?

I have concluded that some people will never condemn attacks and harassment against Jews, because in their eyes it is deserved.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758598#Comment_121758598

In Australia? Or are you advocating for such behaviours worldwide?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758491#Comment_121758491

Sorry - that info was not in the link posted. But I'll take your word for it. And yes, anyone who targets people via WhatsApp, regardless of their faith etc. should be held to account and brought to justice.

260 Palestinian children less than 12 months old murdered by the IDF.

I'm sure you'd agree that goes beyond the pale.

Iscreamkone

There’s a lot of whataboutery going on here. The facts are Hamas (the government of The Gaza) brought this war to their home with their actions on Oct 7.

“But this war started before then” - Not this part of it.

Hamas/Palestine and their supporters are now crying because the IDF have a big stick and are using it. Well maybe Hamas/Palestine should’ve thought about that on Oct 6.

At the end of the day Israel’s duty is to protect their citizens from this EVER happening again.

Future Palestinian leadership should look to protect their people from harm. A terror attack on their militarily strong neighbour probably won’t be high on their agenda, I hope.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758543#Comment_121758543

So if Ireland has economic links with a country, it will not protest against them?

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758621#Comment_121758621

They were Israelis, they are involved in the conflict, Israel continues its expansion outside its agreed borders, what do you think would happen ? Look at what Israel does when someone attacks inside their territory.

The attacks on the Israelis (not the Jews) has been condemned by all most everyone on here, me included. That doesn't mean you can't also condemn the Israelis, however bad hamas is, and they are a disgusting terrorist regime, the Israelis are proving to be far worse.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758179#Comment_121758179

HOW has the penny only dropped now?

It was obvious from 2 weeks into this conflict we were not dealing with rational actors in the IDF and Israeli Govt.

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758749#Comment_121758749

You're either missing the point or deliberately avoiding it. Israel are killing everything and everyone. The longer this goes on the more the international community will go against them, their response is neither targeted or proportionate. Israel will soon find out, you can't do what you want.

Toeuptony

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757502#Comment_121757502

This is another lie. You can see from the social media posts of the IDF and their supporters how much hatred they have for all Palestinians and this is coming from the Govt (human animals, Amalek, etc.). This is off the charts now after Oct 7th, but it was there before too.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

There was a poll in November after the large scale bombing had commenced saying that almost 60% of the population felt Israel was not using enough force.

https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/

"Poll results were also hawkish when it came to the use of force in Gaza: 57.5% of Israeli Jews said that they believed the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) were using too little firepower in Gaza, 36.6% said the IDF was using an appropriate amount of firepower, while just 1.8% said they believed the IDF was using too much fire power, while 4.2% said they weren’t sure whether it was using too much or too little firepower."

You state that "Israel, the state, does not want to destroy Palestine". How in God's name (choose whichever one you want) can you say that with a straight face when you see the death and devastation has been cause by Israel since they started their retaliation for Oct 7th?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758853#Comment_121758853

They were Israelis, they are involved in the conflict

Eh, no they weren't.

They were Australians who happened to be Jewish.

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758893#Comment_121758893

The international community won’t stand on the wall and protect Israel from terror incursions. In fact the UN (UNRWA) was actively involved in the last terror event on Oct 7. There will never be peace with Palestine only limitation of their terror.

NoMoreDonegalTuesdays

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758179#Comment_121758179

Whether religious or not, Israeli society in general is geared towards extreme hard line ideology, ie. genocidal ideology. The ideology of genocide of the other is indivisible from what Israel is.

Empty slogans about "peace" and "oh, we treat gay people well" and "we're the only the democracy in the Middle East" are intelligence insulting bullshit.

The state of Israel is a colonial project which has genocide of the indigenous people as its raison d'etre.

No wonder Israel is hated. It should be. Frankly anybody who doesn't hate Israel at this point just likes genocide.

aidanodr

Interesting developments .. and Qs I myself have asked

https://twitter.com/lindseyhilsum/status/1754612983580221500

https://www.channel4.com/news/israels-evidence-of-unrwa-hamas-allegations-examined

Toeuptony

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758491#Comment_121758491

It is completely unacceptable and beyond the pale as you said, but I think the threats and intimidation that you refer to here pale in comparison to the deaths of 30K mostly innocent civilians, the severe injuries of more than 70K more innocent victims, the fact that these hostilities have caused many thousands of kids to be made orphans and the total decimation of a majority of the accommodation and infrastructure of Gaza.

Most people here who are arguing in favour of the Palestinian people recognise that the actions of Hamas were horrendous and cannot be condoned in any way (although they can easily be explained looking over the history of the last 75 years). But we also have the objectivity and perspective to see that what Israel have done to Gaza is incomparable to the damage that Hamas caused on Oct 7th and that is why we are calling out Israel.

You have no problem calling out Hamas for their actions, but besides some comments stating that you have always been against the settlements, there has been very little criticism of Israel or their actions, which is pretty indefensible from my perspective.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758998#Comment_121758998

Currently it’s not fact, it’s speculation.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758491#Comment_121758491

Whilst unsavoury and very upsetting, I wouldn't categorise that list as "devastating".

Devastating to me is being killed, having my entire family butchered, life changing injuries, starvation, having my home razed to the ground, having the graves of my loved ones bulldozed, being 6 years old in a car with 5 dead relatives , desperate for help, on the phone to the Red Crescent for 3 hours, then when the two medics arrive, for the three of them to be shredded by Israeli tanks and gunfire.

The Palestinians have been harassed for decades, gone into hiding to avoid being killed, businesses destroyed, children less than 12 months old being killed (260 of them).

That is devastating....

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759215#Comment_121759215

Whatever floats your boat.

I’m with the countries who have pulled the funding plug on this rogue organisation.

hotmail.com

Why has RTE got the Israeli Ambassador in for a grilling? We know what's she's going to say.

Why don't they bring on the US Ambassador?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759297#Comment_121759297

Here's a nice long thread that pretty much destroys israels claims about UNRWA and the tunnels they claim to have found.

https://twitter.com/MichaKobs/status/1756821215212130459?t=-PBZLGwa9DhbDuZi0Zxd8Q&s=19

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759297#Comment_121759297

Suspended funding

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759347#Comment_121759347

Guy also posts in support of Russia v. Ukraine. Not sure I'd rely on him.

hotmail.com

The EU asking America to reconsider arming Israel - quite a development.

I doubt we'll see our government or the establishment here criticising anything America does.

paska

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759343#Comment_121759343

She would never get a grilling on RTE, to be honest. The presenter asked where do the people from Rafah go. She evaded the answer and was let off the hook.

She should have been asked to remove the badge on her jacket as well. It's disgusting that she wore our flag on her body.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759372#Comment_121759372

Another one attacking the source instead of debating the content.

Did you read the whole thread? What part of it do you disagree with?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759020#Comment_121759020

Those UNRWA claims were made less than 24 hours after the ICJ ruling against Israel - a total deflection tactic (it's astonishing that the US and UK bought into this nonsense).

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759398#Comment_121759398

I’m sorry if you’re disgusted. Not all Irish people are anti Israel or anti semetic.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759020#Comment_121759020

The UK have a history of starving people they don't like to death.

Why do the media persist on bringing up "TEH OCTOBER 7th TERRORIST ATTACK"? This is literally a drop in the ocean now given what Israel have done the last three months.

Incredible that the media keep giving Israeli spokespeople the amount of airtime they do. Time to peddle outrageous excuses for their clear genocide and land-grab.

And for those reading this thinking "but but but, the hostages, but but, holocaust but but antisemitism 😭", just remember - it is the Kibbutz dwellers that are most anti-Netenyahu. He couldn't care less about the hostages (the fact that he has killed a handful of them already should be clear evidence of this). Netenyahu is all for the hardline Zionists and Zion is is the ultimate goal.