Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800795#Comment_121800795

Israel should stop killing and raping children then.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800813#Comment_121800813

A couple of weeks ago. When I say a coup I am referring to what we have seen in Ireland against leaders like John Bruton and Albert Reynolds.

On reflection coup was perhaps the wrong word to use, rather a heave against him by more moderate members of his war cabinet- Although many commentators will dispute there are any moderates within that cabinet.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800769#Comment_121800769

He'll blame the Americans. I think he is holding out for a deal that gives him immunity from prosecution. He will probably be offered a future role as Israeli president as a sweetener to any deal

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800551#Comment_121800551

Although we disagree on some things, that's something we 100% agree on. Bibi cares only about Bibi. I don't believe he cares about how many Palestinians or even Israelis die so long as it helps him stay in power.

Timberrrrrrrr

Remember a few days ago we had someone say the Palestinians should leave Rafah and go to Al Mawasi because its safe there?

https://twitter.com/MSF_USA/status/1760102582016421994?t=KJYdTElzdu-QAs4dCMeByA&s=19

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800586#Comment_121800586

Yes, exactly.

So any talk of the two state solution is pretty much meaningless as long as they remain the dominant forces on each side.

I think, in reasonably short order, Israel will 'declare victory' (about as useful an exercise as when Bush Jnr did his stunt on the aircraft carrier) and withdraw troops from Gaza. Gaza will be sealed off and Hamas will still run the ruins of that area and the PA will still be as corrupt and ineffective as ever in the West Bank. Illegal settlement building will continue apace in the West Bank. The Israeli-Arab rapproachment will continue as the Arab nations don't really care about the Palestinians. The US will breathe a sigh of relief and turn its attentions back to their own elections.

In short; the situation will be as intractable as ever and the 07-Oct pogrom was all for nothing, appreciably worsening the lives of the Palestinians who continue to find themselves friendless in all the ways that actually matter.

Bleak, eh.

Timberrrrrrrr

How are we supposed to have peace when there's people like this on both sides?

https://twitter.com/BeckettUnite/status/1760613658604826976?t=yOJJh-cEXYT1o3psBZ8Pww&s=19

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121801110#Comment_121801110

Much like Trump, political office is the shield that protects his fortune and keeps him out of jail.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121798309#Comment_121798309

Before October 7th Netanyahu literally stood in front of the UN and held up a map of “New Middle East” with Palestine completely gone from the map and Israel consisting of all its territories.

Is the leader of Israel not credible??

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121801320#Comment_121801320

Yes. As you say the outlook is bleak.

The Arab states don't give a damn about the Palestinians. They'll make noises for a domestic audience, but that's the extent of it. The Saudis want a deal with Israel, that has likely been communicated in private. They probably have an understanding that things need to be said in public that might sound disagreeable, but it's all choreographed. Bibi or whomever follows him will go through the motions and say they'll work towards a solution with the Palestinians- that will please the Americans....

The status quo will continue- as will the cycle of violence. Meanwhile Abbas will continue to get rich in the West Bank. He and his cronies reminds me of Slab Murphy in a way- they love the occupation while pretending to be against it. No wonder there have been no Elections in the West Bank since 2006.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802301#Comment_121802301

And of course Iran will continue to menace Israel via its proxy armies, being of course careful to stay just on the right side of the 'acceptable level of violence' line (the one that Hamas smashed right through).

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802301#Comment_121802301

You should tell that to the Americans. I believe their strategy is have the PA take over in Gaza. Palestinians desperately need to have an alternative to the PA and Hamas.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802570#Comment_121802570

The PA can't even run the West Bank, how is it supposed to suddenly replace Hamas in Gaza?

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802610#Comment_121802610

I believe they want to give them more power and make it conditional on new elections.

The fact is that although the PA is crippled by Fatah, it's also screwed by Israel. Israel have deliberately sidelines them and will do whatever they want in the occupied territories without consultation.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802668#Comment_121802668

The PA under Fatah is a busted flush and only serves to enrich the insiders of Abbas and his cronies. Ordinary Palestinians hate the PA.

Iscreamkone

To all you Palestinian supporters out there - How should Israel have reacted to the Oct 7 attacks?

Should the IDF have stayed out of The Gaza completely, and tried to negotiate immediately?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802709#Comment_121802709

They do act as the perfect partners for Israel to deal with as they are so corrupt and can stamp out most opposition. They are like those tinpot dictators that America used to help prop up in South America throughout the cold War.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803024#Comment_121803024

I'm not sure I would use the word 'partners'! Israel basically ignores the PA, unless it suits to pretend they are in charge of something (usually some security gripe).

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802052#Comment_121802052

I am afraid one has to do better than a single map.

That is a big reach in fairness to say that Israel wants to occupy, thus kill all the Palestinians in Israel because of a single map.

The talks going on behind the scenes is trying to lay out how Gaza is going to be run after this war. Id rather stick to facts and logic around that, rather than conjecture and loose correlations.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800570#Comment_121800570

Regardless of your post, it doesn't address any of the points addressed in my post.

That is, some people differ in their views of Ukrainian refugees and potential Palestinian refugees.

The charge has been laid that if a state offers Palestinians a safe refuge, they are somehow complicit with Israel.

Yet, we don't follow the same rationale when it comes to Ukraine and Russian complicity.

There is a hypocrisy at play here.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802718#Comment_121802718

preferably they should have secured their borders and there would have been no october 7th attack at all.

however ultimately, the reaction would be special forces raids to get back hostages and the bombing of visible hamas military equipment.

what is happening now is not a reaction to october 7th, but a genocide so as to steal and colonise gaza, like they are doing in the west bank.

israel have lost what little credibility it had, it has failed all of its claimed objectives, it has lost the support of so many people like never before, it has made the october 7th attack irrelevant because people are focused on their genocide of the gazan people.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800404#Comment_121800404

That is a difference you just made up.

The UN is clear on that, that refugees didn't have a 'choice' to flee.

There is no tiering or hierarchy of refugees anywhere. So it doesn't apply.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799471#Comment_121799471

WOuldn't it be great if Israel moved back to this position and then the UN police the borders.

Possibly, but you don't fight 3 wars, lose them all, and then claim to go back to the start. That ship has sailed.

It's the 1967 borders that are at stake here

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803390#Comment_121803390

It's pretty straightforward really, the 'West' is actively supporting the side committing the ethnic cleansing/genocide with munitions and acting as a political shield from efforts to stop it.

Israelis politicians have openly stated their goal is to clear Gaza of Palestinians

If a western state assists in this removal of Palestinians they are complicit, not rocket science is it

And before you go there, you can't destroy every hospital, university, accomodation etc and blockade the people to the point of starvation and then claim it's 'voluntary' emigration

scottser

Israel just bombed a food aid centre run by UNRWA. Cos, you know Hamas, or tunnels, or beheaded babies or some such shite:

Ramy Abdu| رامي عبده on X: "Breaking: Moments ago, the Israeli army bombed the UNRWA workshop in Jabalia refugee camp, which is the only place designated by the Popular Committee for Refugee Affairs to distribute some food assistance to the camp. #GazaGenocide" / X (twitter.com)

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803509#Comment_121803509

Israelis politicians have openly stated their goal is to clear Gaza of Palestinians

A few have, but until this is actual government policy I will hold quarter on that.

There are discussions ongoing at the moment when the war ends.

This is from AJ of all places.

Once all of that has been achieved, a new phase will begin in which “Hamas will not control Gaza and will not pose a security threat to the citizens of Israel”, with other Palestinian bodies assuming the territory’s governance.

Israel would reserve the right to operate inside the territory, which means its forces would be able to come and go as they pleased – similar to current arrangements in the occupied West Bank. However, Israel would not keep a constant civilian presence in the enclave after the aims of the war have been met, nor would there be any Israeli settlements.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803444#Comment_121803444

There is pretty much zero chance that Israel would give up its West bank settlements (barring some extreme political recalibration in the White House). Or the Golan Heights, which people tend to forget about.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803528#Comment_121803528

A third of the cabinet, those who seem to be holding the whip at the mount, have publicly committed to settlements.

Regardless, the settlement issue is actually separate to the removal of Palestinians, that can still happen regardless of whether they are replaced.

Toeuptony

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803266#Comment_121803266

Here's another Israeli politician being every explicit about the plan, based on a similar map to the one that Netanyahu presented.

I had a quick search and he doesn't appear to be in the current govt, but it appears to be a widely held expectation.

https://twitter.com/GUnderground_TV/status/1760605822642541013?s=20

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803410#Comment_121803410

It's not a difference I made up ffs. It's the difference between a refugee and ethnic cleansing.

You simply don't understand the difference between forced and forcible.

Ukrainians have not been forcibly removed to the EU (they were forced to flee, that makes them a refugee)

On the other hand, those Ukrainians that have been forcibly removed from Ukraine into Russia, that makes it ethnic cleansing.

As soon as a Palestinian is forcibly removed from Gaza, that's ethnic cleansing. There seems to be some belief that all Gazans want to leave.

I don't want to confuse you any more, but if Israel forcibly removes Gazans into Egypt, with Egypt allowing it, that's ethnic cleansing and Egypt could be complicit in it.

If Gazans flee into Egypt and Egypt allows them in, that's a refugee. However in that situation, as Israel has been bombing, starving and making life unlivable for people in Gaza, Israel could still be guilty of ethnic cleansing. But Egypt wouldn't as they were not complicit in.

Toeuptony

Terrorism tourism!

https://twitter.com/Sprinter99800/status/1760625515193630982?s=20

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803399#Comment_121803399

I’m wondering if Hamas/Palestine would be on the lookout for the IDF special forces after the first couple of raids.

I’d imagine that the toll on Israeli forces using these tactics would be much greater than the tactic that was actually used.

I must admit to not being a military tactician.

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803798#Comment_121803798

No difference between a fat yank headed over to join the IDF and some muslim that went off to fight for ISIS. Should receive the same treatment

Timberrrrrrrr

It's fùcking genocide!

Nihal Abu Ayash was wearing his football kit and carrying his school bag when he was shot in the head and killed after Israeli forces opened fire in the West Bank town of Beit Ummar.

The first bullet reportedly hit the 16-year-old in the leg. He collapsed, and as he tried to stand up, he was shot for a second time in the head, according to the schoolboy’s family.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/family-mourns-nihal-abu-ayashboy-shot-dead-israeli-forces-west-bank?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1708613608

Toeuptony

Powerful video from Bassem Youssef

https://twitter.com/Byoussef/status/1760701323945873621?s=20

Toeuptony

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/us-intelligence-unrwa-hamas

You don't say!

(Insert the Padme & Anakin meme)

"So they're going to re-establish funding, right?"

"So they're going to re-establish funding, right?"

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803611#Comment_121803611

I had a quick search and he doesn't appear to be in the current govt, but it appears to be a widely held expectation.

Expected by whom, as the guy appears to be a mad crank of the highest order. I can't ever see him ever being elected to public office, so to call him a politician, is a label he put on himself.

Ah, here it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Bloc_Party

Yea, I am sure he is going to get far with 0.01% of the vote for his "Bible Bloc Party".

4.76 million people voted in the 2022 Kinneset election. Only 411 voted for Dennis Lipkin.

So, I'll repeat. Who is expecting him to be not only elected but also a government minister?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803665#Comment_121803665

But Egypt wouldn't as they were not complicit in.

Best take that up with @Donald Trump as he explicitly stated, that any nation that grants Palestinians refuge is complicity in helping Israel.

I would say that under no circumstance should other states facilitate Israel's genocide and ethnic cleansing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121798007#Comment_121798007

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803913#Comment_121803913

their genocide has caused them to lose a lot of their forces on the ground as the IDF are a badly trained army at the best of times.

special forces teams don't always have huge numbers so chances are the losses would be a lot lower if they acted like grownups instead of committing genocide.

thereiver

Look on guardian.co.uk opinion theres an article today. It says Biden could simply call the government and tell them to declare a ceasefire and allow aid supply's food water medicine to be supplied to Gaza .eg the Idf can only continue the war with the help of military and financial support from America

Israel would run out of bombs and missiles very soon if it could not get help from America

This has happened before if you look thru the history of middle east wars involving Israel

Biden has the power to force a ceasefire through

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804142#Comment_121804142

Very powerful

Zaka = ghouls

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804175#Comment_121804175

forner politicians . Doesn't matter what they say as they won't be elected

Current ones. Doesn't matter because they don't really mean it.

Doesn't matter what's on the record to you som

That's basically been your response when you claim they have no intent for anything in gaza post conflict. You even mentioned Wannsee ( forgetting that by and large nobody not there knew nothing of it until 1947) and still don't think that they could have spoken about it in any way.

Sm

dmcdona

Settlers gonna settle, ICJ hearing testimony (including Ireland's AG) and democrats ask Biden to ramp up efforts.

Dozens of settlers from the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar threw stones and tried to torch several houses in the Palestinian village of Asira al-Qibliya, according to an Israeli security official. Israeli security forces were dispatched to the village, but no arrests were made.

At the ongoing International Court of Justice hearing on Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories, China said the occupation was illegal.

Thirteen Jewish House Democrats urged U.S. President Biden to redouble his efforts to facilitate a temporary cease-fire, their most pronounced efforts to date.

Turkish Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan called on the international community to take a more active role towards an urgent cease-fire in Gaza and a two-state solution during talks at the G20 summit in Brazil, a Turkish diplomatic source said.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800857#Comment_121800857

Nope. No idea what you are referring to. Perhaps you have confused me with another poster when you said this?

Yet you objected to me welcoming a coup against him.

Although now it turns out it wasn't a coup - but as it's still not any clearer to me what you're talking about, I can't respond to the claim.

dmcdona

Heard today on the radio that data modelling predicts 85,000 Palestinians will die in the next couple of months from injuries, disease and starvation - particularly children.

So that will be 200,000 dead and injured - 10% of the population of Gaza. On percentages, that'll be 140,000 women and children.

Israel = Genocidal terrorist State. This will stain them forever.

Haaretz:

Israel is seeking Palestinians not affiliated with Hamas to manage civilian affairs in areas designated as testing grounds for a post-war administration in Gaza, according to a senior Israeli official, who added the plan would exclude anybody on the payroll of the Palestinian Authority.

A new U.S. intelligence assessment found it is "likely" that some UNRWA employees took part in Hamas' October 7 assault on Israel, the Wall Street Journal reported, adding that "the U.S. can't verify Israeli allegations that a larger number of UN workers have links to militant groups."

UNRWA has no "plan B" past March should donor countries continue to suspend their funds, the head of UNRWA's Lebanon office said.

A Palestinian man being treated at a Gaza hospital for severe bruising on his face, cuts on his fingers and other injuries said Israeli soldiers beat him with chunks of masonry and chairs after bursting into his home on February 20.

The Hamas-controlled Health Ministry in Gaza said that at least 29,410 Palestinians have been killed and 69,465 wounded since the war began.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804188#Comment_121804188

Your quote of Trump does not equal what you attribute to him.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121736994#Comment_121736994

...

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802718#Comment_121802718

First off, they shouldn't have invoked the Hannibal Directive and used attack helicopters to kill everyone, including their own. IDF is responsible for many of the deaths on 7th Oct.

Second - using 2000lb dumb bombs in a densely populated area was disproportionate and a war crime.

Cutting electricity, denying humanitarian aid and murdering surrendering civilians (including three of their own) is also a war crime.

Murdering 260 babies who were less than 1 year old - war crime. Bulldozing graveyards - war crime.

Stealing and looting - war crime

Letting infants die and decompose in an ICU - war crime.

And they are just a few examples of what the Israeli government has sanctioned and the IDF has carried out.

Do you think the IDF was right to go into Gaza and commit war crimes to the extent that this is genocide?

I suspect you do.

Overheal

'Israel' might be a Democracy TM but the Golan Heights and West Bank they illegally occupy, and Gaza which they want to resettle again, exist under Israeli apartheid.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802570#Comment_121802570

Good luck with that. The Israelis should release Barghouti(?). He is quite popular and not tainted by corruption. He recognises the state of Israel and isn't a jihadi nutbjob either.

He has blood on his hands, but so did YItzhak Shamir, who as we know went on to become the prime minister of Israel.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804524#Comment_121804524

So that was in response to you saying this:

There should be a coup against Nethanyu.

OK, I'd forgotten that you'd actually called for a coup against Netanyahu.

Yep. I'm not seeing a problem with me replying that if there was a coup against a legally elected government, that would be completely anti democracy. Because it would.

It seems you only support democracy when you like the people who have been elected?