Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

circadian · 28-02-2024 1:32am

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/02/extraordinary-charges-of-bias-emerge-against-nytimes-reporter-anat-schwartz/

why did the Times hire her?!

Manic Moran · 28-02-2024 4:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826431#Comment_121826431

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be asking if I think that numbers and rates may be relevant when discussing matters of principle such as justification for armed action. IMO ratios and rates etc don't enter into the equation.

Consider. If we take the figure of 1,000 Palestinians killed over three years as entirely unjustified killings, that's 30 a month, and we'll add in, say, an acre of Palestinian territory a month taken over by settlements or whatever (I've no idea the actual figures, this is for the example). Does this give rise to the principle of legitimacy of armed resistance? It would seem reasonable to me that it would. What if the figures were actually only 3 a month, and an acre a year? Does the legitimacy of armed resistance decrease? I don't think it would. Armed resistance would still be moral in the absence of any other viable alternatives, all that is different is a delay in the same result. What would decrease would be the capability of that resistance, as fewer Palestinians might feel inclined to rock boats, risk repercussions, etc by supporting such armed resistance. And the reverse would go the other way. If it were 300,000 killed a month, and an acre taken every five minutes, it seems not unreasonable that the entire Palestinian nation would be up in arms. And probably allies as well. The capability would increase, the principle would not change. Commensurate with that level of capability is likely to be the goal. At a lower level of capability, the goal is likely something akin to just "Leave us alone". At the higher level of total war, with sufficient allies, it could be "March on Tel Aviv and depose the Prime Minister." But the principle of armed resistance remains.

Are we agreed thus far?

If so, we'll continue. It works both ways. A few rockets at Israel, and you might get a small bomb or the like going the other way. There's going to be no political desire in Israel to do much more than that. Mobilisations and wars cost money and pull people away from their lives. Piss off enough Israelis, say by killing and kidnapping some soldiers, and you'll get a more robust military response. The Israeli goal of 2006 was the reduction of Hezbollah as a threat by indirect fire, and the return of kidnapped soldiers. The destruction of Hezbollah or its overall capability was not a goal. But piss off every single Israeli by going on an utterly unrestrained rampage, the capabilities which will be made available in return and the goals given accordingly are going to be much greater. This was no military raid by a non-government organization like Hezbollah carried out, this was a large scale terror attack on civilians by a foreign government well beyond the boundaries of anything even remotely authorised under the laws of war. The Israeli goal of the elimination of Hamas as an organised body capable of conducting attacks is I think a reasonable one in the circumstances. There is no need to wait for a second attack to tally 1,400 just to 'make things even', the principle already exists. There is no way that goal is going to be achieved without a -lot- of Palestinian deaths, and that number was never going to be '700' or whatever. There is no 'acceptable' number or ratio. The legitimate, if callous, answer for the amount of Palestinian and Israeli casualties is "As many as it takes, but no more than necessary." Thus is the nature of war. Is Israel killing more than necessary? Perhaps, but that's a different argument. It might be the difference between 10,000 dead and 15,000 or between 2,000 and 200,000, but the numbers have no relevance to the losses taken the other way. As a matter of principle, for example, the laws of proportionality say that you can't carpet bomb a city to kill a guy with a rifle, that casualties caused must be reasonable with respect to the military goal. No numbers or ratios are given. They also don't say that you have to have a proportional amount of losses on each side.

It's not a level playing field, no. Which is why due consideration needs to be taken before you jab a bear with a pointy stick. Even if the bear is stealing your honey, the bear is going to feel somewhat aggrieved in return and cannot be blamed for the response.

And before anyone tries to justify on the basis of "who started it", it's irrelevant for two reasons. 1) The history is so long and complicated that getting a simple answer seems impossible. It goes back generations, and whoever started it isn't likely alive any more anyway. A pox on both houses as far as that goes. 2) The laws of the conduct of war don't care who started it anyway. They care that you have a legitimate reason to fight, a reasonable goal for the circumstances, and fight in a reasonable manner.

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 7:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826352#Comment_121826352

No, that's not what anyone has said but that's how you have chosen to interpret it.

The hoops you jump through to defend Israel and its murderous apartheid regime is mind-blowing.

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 8:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826366#Comment_121826366

They've tried non violence, they still get shot, their kids still get kidnapped off the streets and locked away for months, they still get murdered, they still have their homes/land stolen, they still don't have freedom of movement, they still cannot trade freely.

I'll ask again (and you won't answer) how much oppression you would stand for before you say enough is enough?

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 8:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826370#Comment_121826370

"Only hope for the future and the future of their children"

Their children he says.

Imagine you're at home waiting for your 12 year to come home but he doesn't, you go looking for him and eventually go to the police (israeli army) who says they have no idea where he is.

You eventually find out that he was arrested by the IDF (for some minor infraction) and taken into custody, your child has been taken to a military facility where he is held for months, he's not allowed legal representation until a day or 2 before his "trial" which is not a trial as you or I would know but a military trial.

His lawyer can't give him much of a defence because the IDF have refused to provide any evidence citing secrecy and his lawyer can't question any "witnesses" because again the IDF class all evidence as "secret".

Your 12 year old child has been beaten/tortured while in "prison" and is scared, you watch as he is charged with minor crimes and sentenced to years in a military prison with no right to appeal his sentence.

This happens on a daily basis, now again I'll ask, how much oppression like this would you stand for until you fmsay enough is enough?

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 8:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826383#Comment_121826383

Well that's just another lie

Screenshot_20240228_071653_Samsung Internet.jpg

Weepsie · 28-02-2024 8:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826366#Comment_121826366

Yet when they are not violent, Israel continues with violence. Why the free pass all the time for one side with you?

Your argument is total bs

Antisemitism bingo again too. Great.

Raoul Duke III · 28-02-2024 9:40am

That's a great post Manic Moran.

markodaly · 28-02-2024 9:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826431#Comment_121826431

I think that the figures are now that just under 700 civilians died on October 7th.

763 according to the best sources.

markodaly · 28-02-2024 10:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826619#Comment_121826619

Non-violent resistance can be successful.

From MLK, to Mandela to Ghandi. These are examples of it working.

What is not working is continued Palestinian armed resistance. Are people seriously saying that it has? Just look at where it has gotten them.

Do you support continued armed resistance and violence from Palestinians including Hamas?

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826863#Comment_121826863

How many were killed by the IDF?

markodaly · 28-02-2024 10:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826624#Comment_121826624

They've tried non violence,

When exactly?

Armed resistance and hate towards its Jewish neighbour has always been a feature with Palestinians, especially the leadership and Hamas of course.

Violence gave rise to men like Sharon and Bibi. They had the chance for a 2 state solution, but Arafat said no. They blew it. The results of this are now self evident.

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826891#Comment_121826891

MLK, Ghandi, Mandela were figureheads for their causes and while they called for peaceful resistance the fact is there was also armed/violent resistance alongside those causes.

"continued Palestinian armed resistance"

At least you are acknowledging that they are resisting, now explain what are they resisiting and why?

markodaly · 28-02-2024 10:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826642#Comment_121826642

I think you missed the bit where I said that Hamas surrender. Do you think they should surrender? The war isnt going too well for them.

markodaly · 28-02-2024 10:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826709#Comment_121826709

Do you support Hamas? Genuine question

If not why?

If so why?

Then you might get to the nugget of my point.

One can't have it both ways.

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 10:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826925#Comment_121826925

And you think it's going well for Israel?

markodaly · 28-02-2024 10:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826893#Comment_121826893

Verified?

One so far.

That was Doron Katz-Asher who was killed while being driven away in a tractor.

Not sure what that has to do with anything but to go down the rabbit hole of a conspiracy theory that has been debunked.

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826957#Comment_121826957

If its been "debunked" then why are the IDF investigating?

markodaly · 28-02-2024 10:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826911#Comment_121826911

MLK, Ghandi, Mandela were figureheads for their causes and while they called for peaceful resistance the fact is there was also armed/violent resistance alongside those causes.

Can you elaborate, as you seem to be light on the details?

For example, what armed resistance did the civil rights leaders of the 1960s engage in in the US?

markodaly · 28-02-2024 10:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826953#Comment_121826953

In a way, yes, without being crude about it.

On what objective measure is it going well for Palestine, especially Gaza?

Donald Trump · 28-02-2024 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826527#Comment_121826527

The issue is, that while you are ostensibly trying to project a neutral view, it is starting from the point that Israel are right, and therefore you mould your answer around it.

If you want to argue that the anger of Israelis justifies or excuses killing tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians, then you have to apply that to Hamas. If you want to argue that because Israel is the bigger and stronger bear which means that it is expected and acceptable for them to attack the weaker party (i.e. some form of "might is right"), then you have to apply the same logic to the situation when armed militants with AK47s are entering your kibbutz.

If Israel's big US brother suddenly pulled all support and left it at the mercy of the supposed enemies that surround it, and said hypothetical enemies attacked it and killed huge numbers of Israelis, then you'd have to say "well they poked the bear so all is fair" too.

BTW, I never said anything about Israel waiting for more victims to sate their bloodlust. My point is that if you want to have the view that Israel is justified and excused in killing tens of thousands, maiming many more, and destroying millions of people's livelihoods and homes, in retaliation for 1000+ Israelis being killed, then all I'd ask is consistency and apply the same to Hamas. But that argument will then descend to a "who started it" one because if one thinks Hamas were justified and excused for Oct 7th, then that must remove some legitimacy from Israel's response.

And to repeat again, I don't think either is justified. I just highlight the contradictory standards commonly applied by many people who've already chosen a "side"

Donald Trump · 28-02-2024 11:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826863#Comment_121826863

What's the point of this?

Noted antisemitic French media published 695 which came out of the noted antisemitic Israeli social security system.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths

What's the point or relevance of you arguing what was originally a non-specific number anyway? Make it 900 you want. It doesn't change the point I made

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 11:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827027#Comment_121827027

I never said MLK engaged in violence I said he was a figurehead for the civil rights movement, the civil rights movement had MANY different factions, these included the black panthers who did engage in violence.

You can't just say MLK, Ghandi, Mandela etc as if they were the be all and end all of civil rights movements and therefore there was no violence in civil rights campaigns in their respective countries.

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827046#Comment_121827046

It's not, it's going terribly for them and I can't see it getting any better in the immediate future.

But it's not going great for Israel either, high losses of troops, high losses of equipment and turned into a pariah state worldwide with massive condemnation from populations across the globe.

They've guaranteed that unless they agree to a full ceasefire as well and stop their apartheid regime against Palestinians the world will turn against them even more as pressure is put on them through protests and boycotting of their goods.

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 11:55am

Remember kids

When they defend israels actions they're defending Israel's continued genocide in Gaza.

"

Unicef warns of increase in 'unbearable level of child deaths in Gaza' due to malnutrition

UN agency Unicef has warned the Gaza Strip is poised to witness an increase in what an official said was “the already unbearable level of child deaths” due to a worsening food crisis."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/feb/20/middle-east-crisis-live-israel-gaza-yemen-houthi-lebanon-hague-court-justice?CMP=share_btn_tw&page=with%3Ablock-65d4650d8f08f68df4ca9a84#block-65d4650d8f08f68df4ca9a84

markodaly · 28-02-2024 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827158#Comment_121827158

You should read your own soures as it backs up my post.

The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.

695 Israeli civilians + 71 foreign civilians = 763 civilians.

Seems to be 2 more than what my post says.

markodaly · 28-02-2024 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827217#Comment_121827217

The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.

You miss the point completely.

Change happened in those countries, led by those people because they followed non-violent means.

Just because some fringe elements advocate more violent means does not detract from my point.

Just because the Black Panthers advocated violence, does not detract from the Civil Rights movement and its achievements. People look at the movement and celebrate its achievements, they don't celebrate the Black Panthers.

The same can be said for Gandhi and Mandela.

Also, those fringe elements never blew themselves up on a bus full of civilians, or massacred entire villages full of women and kids.

Notably, you wont answer the question on the use of violence, however.

markodaly · 28-02-2024 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827236#Comment_121827236

It's not, it's going terribly for them and I can't see it getting any better in the immediate future.

So you admit, their use of armed struggle and violence is doing going well.

Perhaps they need a change in tactic?

But it's not going great for Israel either, high losses of troops, high losses of equipment and turned into a pariah state worldwide with massive condemnation from populations across the globe.

Not at all. What I found surprising is how few casualties the IDF have suffered. Analysts predicted thousands of dead IDF soldiers, but so far since the 28th of October, only about 282 IDF soldiers have been killed. Surprisingly low.

What equipment have they lost? **** all to be honest. Lets be honest. Hamas have ran away from the fight, they have no intention of taking on the IDF in a fair fight.

They've guaranteed that unless they agree to a full ceasefire as well and stop their apartheid regime against Palestinians the world will turn against them even more as pressure is put on them through protests and boycotting of their goods.

Guaranteed you say?

No, that is hope, opinion and conjecture on your part.

Once the war is over, normal business and relations will resume in due course.

The mood music is thus. While people might be sick and tired of Israel, they are also sick and tired of the Palestinians making it hard on themselves.

For sure things have changed since October 7th, there is no going back, but that also means that the Palestinians need to change tac. They cannot expected to continue down the path of violent struggle forever and expect the world to feel sorry for them.

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 2:53pm

"The same can be said for Gandhi and Mandela."

This Mandela?

Maybe the Palestinians are following the lead of Mandela, they've suffered under Apartheid the same as the people of SA did.

"Mandela embraced armed struggle to end the racist system of apartheid.

To many South Africans, particularly within the African National Congress, Mandela was a great man partly because of his willingness to use violence, not in spite of it.

Many believe apartheid would have endured much longer if he hadn’t rebelled and overturned the ANC’s long-standing nonviolence policy."

https://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-nelson-mandela-legacy-violence-20131206-story.html

tayto lover · 28-02-2024 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826236#Comment_121826236

But non-violence has not worked either as their lands have diminished and their people arrested or murdered continually. So what are they to do?

tayto lover · 28-02-2024 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826366#Comment_121826366

That is just like the '' croppy lie down '' policy. BUT that didn't work either. If you don't stand up for your rights then don't expect your aggressors to stand up for you.

You didn't give an example of what the Palestinians have to do to achieve their rights peacefully BECAUSE YOU CAN'T.

tayto lover · 28-02-2024 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826370#Comment_121826370

That does not cut the mustard at all. Its deflection from the evading the question you were asked.

nacho libre · 28-02-2024 3:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822893#Comment_121822893

Even if Hamas release all the hostages , it wouldn't mean an end to the war. This is the obstacle to any permanent ceasefire, Bibi has made it clear any ceasefire will be temporary. Both Hamas and Bibi share one goal; they are seemingly intent on seeing this through to the bitter end.

America could actually solve this if they put real pressure on both Qatar and Israel. They won't do it though .

Manic Moran · 28-02-2024 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827149#Comment_121827149

Hacker: "Humphrey, are you saying that Britain should not support law and justice?"

Humphrey: "No, of course we should, Prime Minister. We just shouldn't let it affect our foreign policy"

Hacker: "We should always fight for the weak against the strong"

Humphrey: "Well then, why don't we send troops to Afghanistan to fight the Russians?"

Hacker: "The Russians are too strong".

There is going to be an element of reality in any decision-making. The level of reaction which an attack is going to provoke should be considered before conducting it, regardless of any moral equivocating over whether there would be moral justification for that reaction.

However, in this case, there is no need for any such moral equivocating. "Might has right" has principle limitations. AK-47 vs kibbutz may be a practical problem for those kibbutz people who were unable to fight back (not all of them were unable), but there is no doubting that the laws of war are in principle on the Kibbutzian side. You have, in principle, the right to defend your home in Ireland. In practice, the law doesn't allow you the means to do it. Does this mean that might has right if you're seventy and the intruder is thirty? Of course not. It just means that the 70-year-old is going to unfortunately and unlawfully die and repercussions will have to come after the fact, see DPP v Barnes (and indeed, repercussions did come for Mr Barnes, not that Mr Forrestal was in any position to appreciate this). Principle and practical results don't always match.

But here there is no principle which excuses 7 Oct. Had Hamas crossed the border and killed a thousand soldiers in their barracks, arguments could be made. The question is not "did Hamas have a justification to attack Israel", or even "did Hamas have a justification to kill a thousand Israelis". The question is "how did they attack, and who did they kill?". 766 civilians were killed. That's what most everyone talks about. The 373 security forces personnel killed in addition are not talked about in the larger discussion. The international outrage is over the organized wanton mass murder of civilians, not the raiding of bases. The military are treated as a separate category both legally and morally, and actions against a military are equally a separate principle. I would observe also that the international outrage against Israel right now isn't about the fact that they've decided to destroy Hamas as an effective organisation, but because people are perceiving excessive civilian casualties. It's the same argument.

Palestinians may not have the military capability to carry out what are arguably some legitimate political goals which have existed for years (Not all of their goals, obviously, but "leave us alone" I think would be one of them.) Israel does have the military capability to carry out what are arguably legitimate political goals. Until 7 Oct, the active destruction of Hamas would be difficult to justify as one of them. By 8 october, that changed, and we are now seeing the result. This is why I said one must be thoughtful before poking the bear. The idea that you may feel (or have) a legitimate grievance worthy of action does not mean that it is impossible for the other side to feel (or have) a legitimate reason for a reaction far in excess of what you can do.

Odhinn · 28-02-2024 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826370#Comment_121826370

Even more vague blather. You evidently have no clue as to how they can proceed. You'll be telling us they should walk with Jesus next.

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-02-2024 3:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828229#Comment_121828229

This is why I said one must be thoughtful before poking the bear. The idea that you may feel (or have) a legitimate grievance worthy of action does not mean that it is impossible for the other side to feel (or have) a legitimate reason for a reaction far in excess of what you can do.

So do you believe Israels reaction is proportional or too much?

Brussels Sprout · 28-02-2024 3:39pm

A Tory councilor rang into James O'Brien's show when he was covering the Lee Anderson story.

He's jewish and basically wanted to steer the conversation away from islamaphobia and instead talk about anti-semitism in the wake of the Gaza conflict.

To call it a train-wreck might actually be an understatement. He'll be lucky if he isn't sued after this performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n04VhuZgns&ab_channel=LBC

Overheal · 28-02-2024 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827027#Comment_121827027

You act like MLK wasn’t assassinated or that the civil rights movement involved no riots and seem to have no knowledge of for instance, the black panthers movement

Donald Trump · 28-02-2024 3:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828229#Comment_121828229

Not much point going on about DPP v Barnes. It's irrelevant to the scenario you posted. I don't think the Hamas lads are claiming they killed Israelis in self defence from a burglary gone wrong. The Palestinians original "offence" appears to be mainly existing and breathing if you do want to make the analogy.

Why is it terrible when one side kills some civilians, but not the other side? Why the double standard? That's all I ask.

Plenty of people, spread across multiple generations of Irish history, "provoked the bear" of the British empire in their quest for freedom and equality. They were "wrong" to do so until they weren't I guess..........even though their aspirations would have been equally as valid.

Can you say for certainty what you would do if you lived there - with no hope and no future? Suffering humiliation every day of your life while colonisers who stole your land spit at you from the other side of that barbed wire fence. Perhaps seeing you house bulldozed and members of your family shot. A slow death of suffocation. Would you keep bending over saying "give it to me bear, I don't want to provoke you", or might you flip and decide you have nothing to live for and only something to die for? In many ways, a long slow, prolonged systematic process of murder would be less preferable to a large and quick hyper-violent one.

tayto lover · 28-02-2024 4:44pm

Genocidal and apartheid state and the people living in the World's largest open-air prison -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jehRJ0jQHQ

Weepsie · 28-02-2024 5:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826891#Comment_121826891

Yet again ignoring that these all didn't work in isolation and never would have unfortunately

markodaly · 28-02-2024 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828761#Comment_121828761

But they did.

Armed resistance didn't give the civil rights any gains, nor did it give Mandela or Ghandi.

Its simply historically not true to claim that they did.

Also, I note you ignored the question.

markodaly · 28-02-2024 5:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828265#Comment_121828265

I know failure when I see it, and the past 75 years have been a failure of Palestinian leadership, no question about that.

It appears everyone else has run out of ideas.

Weepsie · 28-02-2024 5:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828780#Comment_121828780

You didn't ask me the question, you were asking someone else.

And you're very wrong

You've ignored several posts re Ghandi and the fact that peaceful protest alone was not the reason for India independence. MLK and Mandela didn't achieve their aims only through their peaceful means.

All of the above , though they used peaceful means, also benefitted from others with the same end goal using violence as a measure. To claim otherwise is denying history.

Do I support Hamas, no and never have. I support ordinary Palestinians to be able to now fight the scourge that being delivered upon them by scumbag idf soldiers who are taking great pleasure in killing civilians.

Do you support Israels use of violence?

Do you support their killing of 30,000 civilians?

Do you support their use of white phosphorus?

Do you support their illegal creation of refugees and settling of land?

Do you support how Israel has historically treated ordinary Palestinian citizens, barring them from fishing their own coastal water?

Do you support the destruction of 36 hospital?

Do you support the force movement of 2 million people to safe spaces that are then bombed?

markodaly · 28-02-2024 5:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828031#Comment_121828031

You didn't answer my question, yet again.

And yes, Mandela in his earlier years dabbled in armed resistance but saw that it was a dead end and disavowed violence. That is why he was a great man, he saw through and beyond violence.

It's easy to pick up a rock or a gun or plant a bomb, it's much harder to take the high road to peace.

We have 75 years of evidence that Palestinian violence and armed resistance is not working.

A definition of madness is to continue doing the same thing, but expecting different results.

markodaly · 28-02-2024 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828342#Comment_121828342

Yes, I forgot all the times the black panthers blew themselves up on buses, launched rockets into non-black neighbourhoods and massacred civilians en mass.

Also...