Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Francie Barrett

Lots of people are quoting the Palestinian casualty numbers, but those come from Hamas, who would naturally want to inflate women and children deaths.

Who knows what the real number of dead is, but based on the above the Hamas claims make no sense.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

So you don't believe 10s of thousands have died? How many do you then believe have died? I haven't read of many nations disputing these figures.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

Historically they have been accurate. The US believe the figures are so high it warrants an immediate ceasefire, the figures are so high the ICJ is investigating a claim of genocide against Israel.

Even Israel has mentioned them in the context of saying 1 in 3 deaths are Hamas and also they have killed 10k Hamas fighters.

So either the figures are broadly accurate or everybody is lying including Israel.

The whole world have accepted the extremely high death toll of innocent lives, apart from you? Now that doesn't make sense.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864535#Comment_121864535

egypt isn't engaging in a blockade, it's israel who is engaging in a blockade.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

chances are that the number is actually higher then claimed, as we don't know how many people are buried under rubble.

remember whatever about hamas, israel are a proven lier on absolutely everything, so cannot be trusted either under any circumstance.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

Francie vs Reuters.

Good man.

Francie Barrett

Too many people to reply to above.

The only source for the number of Palestinian dead is from Hamas, the side who are fighting Israel. They are claiming that 70% of the 30,000 dead are women and children. Presumably the other 30% are men. Given that there are only 40k Hamas fighters (Gaza population is 2.2M), most of the men who are dying you'd expect to be non-combatants. The Hamas numbers suggest that only a tiny number of that 30k dead are fighters, maybe 1,000 or so.

What are the conclusions? Are the Israeli's sparing the Hamas fighters and targeting their women and children instead? Are the Hamas fighters hiding and letting the women and children be used as human shields?

The Hamas claims don't make sense.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867172#Comment_121867172

That's pretty much the jist of it. It's accepted that the Hamas figures are broadly accurate.

Why would the US be quoting them if they were extremely inaccurate? Aid agencies on the ground in Gaza don't seem to be questioning the figure. Very very few people are questing the civilian death toll. Why is this being rehashed?

The issue is the figures Israel provide for Hamas fighters killed. They say 10k, so as I mentioned before the math only works if Israel see any adult male as a Hamas member. Which judging by the way they indiscriminately shoot people including hostages, it may very well be the case. I honestly don't believe Israel have a clue how many actual Hamas fighters they have killed.

You don't have the ICJ agreeing to proceed with a genocide case on the back on a couple of civilian deaths.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864402#Comment_121864402

Two huge differences between Mariupol and Gaza:

1) Russia started that war and is thus responsible for its consequences, and Hamas started the war on the 7th of October.

2) The problem in Mariupol was that the city was surrounded in full by Russians, at the time the theatre was bombed cities like Kyiv and Lviv were relatively safe and AFAIK borders with other countries (e.g. Moldova, Romania, Poland etc) were open to Ukrainians at that point. By contrast, Israel is not stopping anyone from leaving the Gaza strip to go to Egypt for example. But whereas EU countries opened their borders to Ukrainians, Arab countries are doing SFA for Palestinians.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

^ this is modern day equivalent of Holocaust denial

Plutarch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866805#Comment_121866805

Not one Israeli will see the inside of a court. They can conduct all the investigations they want. The court was set up to protect the post WW2 liberal order of which Isreal is the jewel in the centre of the crown. Isreal could attack a US warship and the US wouldn't do anything about it. Blinken is effectively Israeli.

Francie Barrett

Hours after the hearing, however, Pentagon spokeswoman Sabrina Singh refuted Austin’s estimate of the deaths of women and children on the basis that it had come from the Gaza Ministry of Health rather than US intelligence.

“We cannot independently verify these Gaza casualty figures,” said Singh.

The Americans cannot verify the Palestinian claims

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867172#Comment_121867172

Reuters, dude.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867312#Comment_121867312

1) Not according to the Russian perspective coming out of the Kremlin. They are quite clear about the Ukrainian provocations. Which is just slightly more plausible than the "eradication of Hamas" excuses the zionists come out with

2) Israel surrounds most of Gaza by land and blockades it from sea. Nothing is allowed in or out without its say so.

We watch these Israeli spokespeople on TV blatantly lying through their teeth in interviews and claiming black is white. WE have posters on here that would give them a run for their money. Would you be another one blaming the Irish air force for the starving in Gaza?

Plutarch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867312#Comment_121867312

No. The difference is who is a friend and who is an enemy of the post WW2 order. Israel is a defacto 51st state.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867330#Comment_121867330

Absolutely non relevant to the discussion around the figures claimed by Hamas and those claimed by Israel.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867313#Comment_121867313

The money makes it all worthwhile though, but I do admit it's a pain to get Israeli shekels exchanged in Galway.

Plutarch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867380#Comment_121867380

Yes it is.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

Have you seen what's left of Gaza? The figures quoted are only for either confirmed or believed to be dead. Then theres the multiple thousands more missing or buried under the rubble. The Israelis can't bang on about a metro of tunnels for Hamas, flatten the place, then claim that the figures are wrong and at least whatever amount they decide are just men are equal to Hamas deaths while HAMAS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN THESE BLOODY TUNNELS.

Which one is it? It can't be both, can it? Are they in the tunnels or are they on the surface? Are the figures correct if they use a % of them to confirm Hamas deaths?

Just look at the place. Look at the famine. Look at the state of whatever is left of their healthcare service. You don't need numbers to be validated to know that the deaths are well into the tens of thousands and quite possibly in the upper end given everyone starving or buried under rubble.

Overheal

Ah ffs

https://www.mediaite.com/news/multiple-people-killed-after-being-hit-by-airdropped-aid-packages-in-gaza/

Frank Grimes

More of this weird fetishisation of Palestinian women's underwear, we can be rest assured that the "most moral army in world" are doing this for a good reason no doubt.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/1b9yenz/new_photos_of_israeli_soldiers_doing_this_emerge/

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867703#Comment_121867703

Pretty sure aid agencies warned against doing this for a range of reasons.

I think US would be better staying out of the middle east problems. It will always have a bad name there, trying to be mother Theresa is not going to change that. Part of the problem in Gaza is that you had young folks sitting around doing nothing, with aid being supplied by our tax money for years, and their population exploding. There's literally nothing there just desert and no work. It only took a few radical jihadis to set a spark to the madness that ensued. The only way forwrd is for Hamas to surrender and get rid of its guns. Let the good people of Gaza, rebuild their communities and create jobs opportunities so that it will have a population that's realistic for that area. The aid organisations should go take a hike, they just make the situation worse.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867370#Comment_121867370

Just one point to make, despite this tight control of Gaza, massive tunnel network(s) were built, and hundreds of thousands of missiles were stored in these tunnels. So the borders are more porous than people think.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864495#Comment_121864495

A "ceasefire" forces Israel to leave Hamas in place in Gaza. Israel has the right to go after and destroy Hamas. As for "negotiation for hostage releases" why should Israel have to negotiate with genocidal terrorists bent on their total annihilation? And while there's plenty of criticism of the US for giving Israel weapons to defend itself, but few posts criticising this also criticise Iran and their supply of weapons to Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis.

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868426#Comment_121868426

Have you considered a career in geopolitics with such insightful critiques of the situation

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868591#Comment_121868591

They would have had crude home-made weapons and missiles too.

They smuggled other weapons in, but likely over many years and not during wartime.

I don't think the average consumer on the street would have the ability to be smuggling food in or themselves out. The few that manage to get out are getting out emaciated. I wouldn't dismiss Israel's blockades as being anything like irrelevant to the issues the ordinary people are facing right now.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869023#Comment_121869023

Yes, they dug up water pipes, and converted them into mortars for one thing, but the explosives had to be "imported", and they fired 3'000 missiles in the 1st hours of the attack. The point remains, had Gaza been as sealed as is being claimed, Oct 7 could not have happened.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869388#Comment_121869388

The warheads Hamas used previously have also been salvaged unexploded bombs dropped by Israel. They will have plenty to salvage through in the future.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869388#Comment_121869388

Surely you recognise the difference between the ability of the general population to access things and the ability of organised groups to smuggle in specific items over time? One can't point to the likes of the Kinahans importing a tonne of cocaine and conclude that Ireland allows random citizens access to bring in a few kg whenever they want.

It may or may not be your intention, but you are trying to imply that there is no blockading or hindering of aid getting into Gaza. Even the US have (too late) stepped up with their plans for a temporary port.

Surely you are also aware of the previous flotillas which tried to break previous blockades? Including one example where the IDF summarily executed Turkish nationals trying to deliver humanitarian aid? That's accepted in a UN report btw. How would you explain why the IDF were executing foreign nationals in international waters for breaking a blockade that didn't exists? As I mentioned above, there were even instances where Irish nationals were kidnapped in international waters by the IDF

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868714#Comment_121868714

Is Israels "right" to "destroy Hamas" more or less valid than Hamas "right" to "destroy the IDF" on October 7th?

Proportionally, you wouldn't have had to go back far in time prior to October 7th for the cumulative killings and crimes by the IDF to exceed what Hamas did on that day.

The obvious conclusion is that when a person is supporting one as valid, and not the other, then there is obviously some underlying bias there - regardless of how they want to conceal it.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869562#Comment_121869562

One second now, I'm speaking of the past, pre-Oct 7, not the present. When Hamas began stockpiling weapons for future use. If they had been unable to do that, then they would not have been able to attack Israel on the scale that they did on the 7th. Or for that matter the very frequent missile attacks that have been ongoing since 2005.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869561#Comment_121869561

And they (Hamas) could also salvage some of their own (which have a much higher failure rate than Isreal's) which failed to make it to Israel, but no matter which bombs / missiles are being "repurposed", it's an incredibly risky business.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869629#Comment_121869629

They had a lot of years to build up whatever stockpile. It doesn't indicate that there wasn't an overall blockade which was detrimental to the general population. What it proves more-so is the ineffectiveness of such blockades. The blockades are, and were, simply a collective punishment and attack on the vulnerable population.

Regardless, there is a much more serious blockade now insofar that aid trucks cannot get in. And the Israelis have caused any potential distribution network to be destroyed. Either by attacking and dismantling agencies like UNRWA or by simply vapourising the infrastructure. People are dying of starvation. Israel are doing it deliberately.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868714#Comment_121868714

Is anyone here a citizen of or in an economic cooperation with or in strategic partnership with Iran?

Condemning Iran is patently assumed surely. Chill.

Even if Israel utterly glassed Gaza, Hamas still exists in Qatar, so this guff about Israel having the right to finish the job etc. is meaningless bluster. Hamas won’t be destroyed if Gaza is. So this is not an apt reason not to ceasefire against women and children and half naked hostages waving white flags.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868714#Comment_121868714

I guess the criticism of both America and Israel is down to the amount of civilians, women's and kids Israel is killing in the pursuit of hamas. Also the ceasefire was successful in actually getting hostages released. But you know that, so I don't know why this has to be repeated.

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121870004#Comment_121870004

The problem for Hamas is that hostages were being taken in Gaza and also in the west bank in larger numbers and faster than they were being released by Israel. The fact that a large number of women and children have been kidnapped from Gaza and have simply disappeared is staggering. Parents have had babies taken away and are simply gone. How can you negotiate with that

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121870235#Comment_121870235

To be honest I don't think Bibi is in any hurry to negotiate the hostages back as their plight is the only thing that elicits international sympathy.

There would be less support for the killing wholesale of women and kids just to try to destroy Hamas with no end in sight, if Hamas was not still holding hostages.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869388#Comment_121869388

Israel wasn't sealed either on Oct 7th it seems. Someone was asleep at the wheel. And the fact that they had been treating Palestinians like **** for so many years and expected no consequences just shows their arrogance. You reap what you sow and after the atrocities of the IDF it will probably happen again because of the new recruits that either Hamas or whatever new element appears after this will have at their disposal. Rinse and repeat until Israel learns how to treat people.

tayto lover

As if we didn't suspect it -

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/unrwa-report-says-israel-coerced-some-agency-employees-to-falsely-ad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121870235#Comment_121870235

Have you any proof of those claims, that women have been kidnapped and babies taken away?

Fuascailteoir

UN reports from mid February were publicised detailing the allegations. As well as that there are ongoing allegations from well before October 7th of serious sexual assault including the rape of children held by Israel.

Here is one report on it:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121870937#Comment_121870937

Yes 'allegations', what they actually need is proof, just like Israel had when the Palestines invaded, kidnapped, killed and rape. Anyway the UN are biased against Israel even though it created it. The UN was also very slow to criticise the Oct 7th attacks.

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121871028#Comment_121871028

So the UN is biased against Israel and is telling lies ... right

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121871028#Comment_121871028

The experts are part of what is known as the Special Procedures of the Human Rights Council. Special Procedures, the largest body of independent experts in the UN human rights system, is the general name of the Council’s independent fact-finding and monitoring mechanisms. Special Procedures mandate-holders are independent human rights experts appointed by the Human Rights Council to address either specific country situations or thematic issues in all parts of the world. Special Procedures experts work on a voluntary basis; they are not UN staff and do not receive a salary for their work. They are independent of any government or organisation and serve in their individual capacity.

they are all telling lies is it? To what end would they decide to do that? I think on the balance of probability I might decide to listen to what they have to say rather than your feeling that they are making it up

Toeuptony

100% this

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1766490689221902653?s=20

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121871028#Comment_121871028

They didn’t have proof then either?

“Reasonable grounds to believe” is not “proof” either so check your bias.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e

JayBee66

Judging by the number of Irish people flying the flag of a nation that has NEVER existed, it would appear that Stockholm Syndrome is an increasing problem in Ireland.

If the Irish want to get involved in the existentialist conflict in the Middle East then remember that one side is more like Ireland than the other. Namely, it was a state that had 2000 years of imperial occupation by 5 successive empires. The other side wants to become an empire that dominates the World. That first state and its people has more in common with Ireland than the second. Unfortunately, the second state is better at propaganda and tapping Stockholm Syndrome in the unwary.

THAT religion doesn't need to become a majority in Ireland before the Irish throw away all they fought for in 1922. Ireland's PR system will have political parties falling over themselves to court the vote of followers of THAT religion. We already see that in one party, led by someone from a family of far-left actors.

The problem with a liberal approach to immigration is that it is self-defeating. The majority of migrants come from illiberal countries and have no wish to become liberal. Migrants raise larger families than liberals. It is obvious what that will lead to. The replacement level will not be met by liberals. The illiberal will be the driving force of Ireland's population growth.

Eventually, all laws will become tainted by the needs of THAT religion so that existing political parties can remain in power. Irish people, who are more susceptible to Stockholm Syndrome, will increasingly side with THAT religion. As some are already doing with their flags.

You can throw the only truly democratic nation in the Middle East to the dogs but that won't keep the dogs at bay. As Putin wants more after Ukraine, THAT religion will want more after the demise of that democratic nation.

Democracy is in decline, throughout the World. Even the EU will become more authoritarian. Probably to guarantee that its liberal madness ensures its own demise.

The various strains of THAT religion will temporarily unite to vote for a single party throughout Europe that satisfies its aims. When those aims are met and there is no opposition then THAT religion will tear itself apart in a final conflict. Europe and the European people will already be no more.

Francie Barrett

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68514821

Israel have completed the first step in the process of carving Gaza up. A road has been built across the territory that divides it in two.

Eventually Gaza will go from complete Palestinian control to looking like the West Bank, major population centres will be cut off from each other, movement restricted, walls, trenches, security check points constructed.

The Hamas invasion of Israel has inflicted a catastrophe on Gaza.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873776#Comment_121873776

The Palestinians never have had complete control of Gaza. This is a bit like that time when you stated 40,000 Hamas fighters invaded Israel.

The Israeli far right and Likud must be secretly delighted with Hamas . Their vision for Gaza is being implemented.