Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885594#Comment_121885594

The actions of countries which are talking about are not an uprising against Jews. It's deliberately loaded language and the very sort that tries to frame people as antisemitic and remove any actual critical analysis that might shine a light on the continued crimes of the state of israel

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885623#Comment_121885623

So what kind of response do you think the Islamic world will take as a result of whats happened and still happening in Palestine now?

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884695#Comment_121884695

It's not a genocide because it doesn't meet its definition by UN as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". It is war, not genocide. You can't just call genocide when you hate one party engaged in a war.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886162#Comment_121886162

It definitely fits the description. Has to be a genocide so.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886162#Comment_121886162

Starving a population, removing them en masse from most of the area, flattening everything in sight including schools, hospitals and refugee camps. Openly allowing settlers to move into said destroyed areas with various members of government openly backing the national/ethnic/religious groups piss off somewhere else.

Pretty sure that meets the definition you just posted.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886189#Comment_121886189

All those are things that happen in wars, and not defining genocide. War is death and destruction, and no matter how bad the war is it doesn't mean it's genocide.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886208#Comment_121886208

"War is death and destruction" doesn't take away from the facts.

NewClareman

It is clear that there is an orchestrated campaign that is consistent, not just on Boards.ie, but across all social media channels. Every discussion that refers to what's happening in Gaza is stifled, ever so politely, by turning back to what happened on October 7th. The extent of this campaign became clear when I read  multiple articles in reputable publications including Foreign Policy  and Politico.

"The Israeli airstrikes have created a level of urban destruction more severe than in Aleppo in Syria or Mariupol in Ukraine, destroying or damaging close to one-third of buildings in Gaza. As the extraordinary scale of civilian killings and destruction of homes in Gaza became visible on social media ... Israel’s information warfare strategy focused on deflecting attention from it. "To this end, Israel has capitalized on polarization in Europe and the United States by pushing a simple narrative: Criticizing the war is anti-Semitic and protesting the mass killing of Palestinians is to do the bidding of Hamas." How Israel Mastered Information Warfare in Gaza, foreignpolicy.com, 11/3/24.

See also, Israel advocacy groups outspend pro-Palestinian groups on social media, Politico.com, 12/6/23

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887545#Comment_121887545

That may be the truth in social media in general though I don't think you see much of that on Boards, I dont think this platform is big enough to attract that attention. We just have a few fervent Israeli supporters here.

You do see constant claims of Anti-Semitism here, even some outlandish claims stating that Ireland is the most anti-Semitic country outside of the Middle East or the Catholic Church controls us, but that weak narrative doesnt work here, and is ignored.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887545#Comment_121887545

Evidence? Especially for the claim that there is an "orchestrated campaign that is consistent, not just on Boards.ie" ...

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121888653#Comment_121888653

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/israel-social-media-ad-campaign-gaza-seige-1234855901/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/01/24/gaza-israel-activism-online/

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121888788#Comment_121888788

The poster specifically referenced boards.ie. BTW your second link is paywalled.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885726#Comment_121885726

Not a an uprising against Jews. There will no doubt be cyclical regional conflict with Israel, but there will not be a global uprising against Jews. Stop with that.

Overheal

I guess asking if Palestinians are human beings is a gotcha question now

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/XACkr8pknw

tayto lover

Found this very interesting -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0gECjlpXF8

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886162#Comment_121886162

And yet, with all its resources and so-called-experts who have devoted their lives to the field of law, the ICJ held that it was "plausible" that Israel had already committed genocide in Gaza months ago.

Why they just didn't defer to the boards.ie experts is beyond me. It would have saved them a lot of embarrassment. They must be mortified that they didn't even know the definition

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889157#Comment_121889157

No there was no such statement from ICJ. They didn't even ask for a cease fire, and that's coming from a judge panel that's presumed to be heavily biased against Israel.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889273#Comment_121889273

You are dead right. I was only reading a fake decision from an untrustworthy antisemitic site - that being the ICJ site itself. They obviously posted some lies, pretending that the ICJ had posted it.

https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203454

In the Court’s view, the facts and circumstances mentioned above are sufficient to conclude that at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible. This is the case with respect to the right of the Palestinians in Gaza to be protected from acts of genocide and related prohibited acts identified in Article III, and the right of South Africa to seek Israel’s compliance with the latter’s obligations under the Convention.

I see you are getting in your excuse of "heavily biased" good and early too.

jmreire

Lets just wait and see

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121888875#Comment_121888875

Let's just wait and see Weepsie, OK? For sure the entire Muslim world (admittedly, that's not the entire world, but still) is angry and offended by what Israel has done and is doing to Palestinians. There will be major backlash by them to that, and it has started already with the Houthi's attacking shipping in the Red Sea, sinking one and killing 3 sailors. This ship was carrying 41'000 ton of Fertiliser and Oil, and is causing an ecological disaster in the Red Sea. This is just the beginning of the Islamic reaction, but as well we have the universal reaction of all normal and civilized people calling for all kinds of sanctions etc, on Israel. So wait and see who is right, shall we? Oh, and another thing, kindly stop dictating what I may or not post, OK? I don't tell you what you can (or cannot) post, moderator or not.

jmreire

...

tayto lover

Another murder after they gave the Israelis the coordinates ?? Hamas in the flour bags excuse forthcoming.

https://www.rte.ie/news/middle-east/2024/0313/1437623-gaza-aid/

"Today's attack on one of the very few remaining UNRWA distribution centres in the Gaza Strip comes as food supplies are running out, hunger is widespread and, in some areas, turning into famine," said UNRWA chief Philippe Lazzarini.

He also said the UN had shared coordinates of the facility with the Israeli army on Tuesday.

An UNRWA spokeswoman said the facility was used "to distribute much-needed food and other lifesaving items to displaced people in southern Gaza".

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889484#Comment_121889484

It has been clear for a good while now that one of Israel's deliberate strategies is to starve the Palestinians to death.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889429#Comment_121889429

There's absolutely nothing wrong with calling for sanctions on Israel. It's not some sort of anti Jewish push. Again you're using loaded language. It's a major part of the problem that instead of actually trying to loom at the problem is trying to sweep it all under one anti Jewish / anti Semite lazy argument that holds absolutely no water. It should be dismissed for what it is, utter tosh.

You've tried to argue that peaceful protests to the wilful slaughter of 1000s of people is signs of an anti Jewish uprising. Nonsense.

And Sanctions are a useful political and economic tool that has been used against countries for crimes far less egregious than Israel's of late. There is nothing on calling for them that is anti Jewish.

Many if Israel's neighbours have all sorts of sanctions on them too

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889380#Comment_121889380

They are merely affirming that Palestinians have the right to be protected from genocide, and NOT claiming that Israel is committing genocide or that the accusation is plausible. You neet to stop lying.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886208#Comment_121886208

Do you remember when Assad was bombing hospitals. His excuse was similiar to that of the IDF. The Russians have similiar excuses in Ukraine. You would not pass off their crimes as just the horrors of war. You would lay the blame where it lay, but you can't with Israel because they can do no wrong from your perspective. The ICJ in not throwing the case against Israel out must not be as certain as you are that it's not genocide.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889652#Comment_121889652

It's a court case. South Africa took a case against Israel and presented evidence it felt constituted genocide. Israel presented evidence to defend the claim.

The court rules that SA's case was plausible and it will be heard at a later date. It's the equivalent of pre trial hearings, if the judges feel it's a made up case with insufficient evidence etc... the case is dismissed.

The ICJ never did and never would make a ruling that Israel have committed genocide, they need a full trial for that. The judges found the case SA presented before the court plausible. If the judges didn't find SA's claim of Israel committing genocide plausible the case would have been kicked out.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889585#Comment_121889585

I''ll repeat my views and reasoning Weepsi. Here goes:- Since 2005, when Hamas took control of Gaza, and started attacking Israel with missiles etc, and of course, with Israel responding basically tit for tat (except that Israel tended to return them on a ratio of 2 (or more) to 1, it became so common place, that it barely got a mention in the media. Until Oct 7, when it became the most reported event in the world for a while. BINGO, exactly what Hamas wanted and planned for, massive revulsion targetted at Israel, Muslim countries united in their anger and hatred of Israel, cutting economic ties,( and for sure, giving Jews a hard time to say the least of it!) Other non-Islamic Country's denouncing Israel, and threatening sanctions etc. And Weepsie, all of this is happening, and it will get worse. We have already seen the mass protests in European Cities, Wait until the Jihadis call for mass protests in Islamic Country's, demanding that their governments and Muslims in the west take "action" against not only Israel, but their "supporters" in the west too. And Weepsi,in my opinion it will get worse. Much worse for Israel (and the west too!)

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889652#Comment_121889652

Now now now. You are the one lying. Can you not read it? I gave you the link.

Why do you think that such supposed experts made such a basic error? When a regular board.ie poster such as yourself can immediately know they are wrong? Never mind legal training - some people know things are wrong because of .... feelings??????

And why did the ICJ lie and put up a decision on their own ICJ website, as if to pretend that the ICJ put up a decision on their own ICJ website? Was it just to trick regular people like me? Not everyone is as lucky to have people like yourself available to point out that the decision doesn't say what it actually does say.

I think where the confusion lies is that the decision is written using words, and people who can read, will read those words, and mistakenly conclude that they say what they say, when in reality, if you do it the correct way and don't read them, you will find out that they don't say what they do say.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889585#Comment_121889585

Except that Israel is home to nearly half of the worlds Jews, is the worlds only Jewish state, and has been attacked by its neighbours continuously throughout its history.

Anyone who calls for the sanctioning of Israel is siding with its enemies. Iran, Hamas, PIJ, the Houthis, Hezbollah, Islamic State etc.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889869#Comment_121889869

You don't get to make up the rules SeanW.

Although you may or may not be able to process it in you own mind, it is perfectly possible to simultaneously have the opinion that maybe Israel shouldn't be committing genocide against innocent women and kids in Gaza, while also having the opinion that ISIS probably weren't a great bunch of lads.

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889869#Comment_121889869

The EU have said today that Israel is using starvation as a weapon against civilians. Surely that deserves sanctions.

The Israelis are going to move 1.4 million people into 'islands' within Gaza. Sounds suspiciously like the concentration of 'human animals' within camps. Where have we seen this sort of thing before

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889869#Comment_121889869

No they're not. Anyone who is calling for sanctions on Israel is simply expecting them to to be treated just as Russia are, just as China is sometimes. Libya, Iran, Saudia Arabia, Yemen, South Sudan, Venezuela, Cuba are just a handful of countries who are currently under various sanctions, political and economic. Many for far less reasons than for what would justify sanctions against Israel.

It's not an anti Jewish action. It's an action against a state engaged in war crimes. It's very simple.

Israel can be sanctioned while also not supporting any of those groups you mention. It's such a stupidd lazy stretch to claim that calling for sanctions makes you a supporter of terrorism. Go away out of that.

Stop trying to frame everything as some sort of antisemitism. It's all you ever try to do.

It seems as if the only people who can't separate Jews and Israel are those who accuse everyone of antisemitism.

Weepsie

Conveniently leaving out how Israel has both prior to it's inception. (Or supporters of Israel) Have commited acts of Terrorism in Palestine, and since. And since it's inception have illegally settled land they have zero rights to, displacings 1000s in the process so they can fly over a handful of wealthy Americans to live in a homeland that is in reality as much mine or yours than is theirs.

iamstop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889557#Comment_121889557

They were caught red handed razing fields of crops during the limited cease fire.

iamstop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889822#Comment_121889822

The biggest problem here jmreire is that in your view this was started by Hamas in 2005. Whereas anyone who wants to look into this even a little bit will soon find out that Israel were building illegal settlements in 1967.

Did you know that it was also 1967 that Israel effectively aparthied'ed TF out of the water supply there too? Image.

https://youtu.be/bCh043-gLIM?si=r3ctz-Waw2vUi2t3

Making it illegal to harvest the water falling from the sky so you and your family can just live with some dignity.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889954#Comment_121889954

How come nobody is whinging about all the sanctions against Russia. Blatant discrimination against followers of the Russian Orthodox Church. Given that the population mainly follows that religion and almost 90% of its followers live there.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890052#Comment_121890052

Yes, Iamstop, I'm fully aware of what has been going on there prior to Oct7, and I'm neither trying to excuse it or deny it. I fully understand the principles of cause and effect. The point that I'm trying to make is that Oct7 is a watershed moment, it has changed everything. Bit like Sept 11th. Everything since 2005 has been leading up to this, and now everything is changed, utterly changed. That's my point, not to argue who did what to who, so far there's 33511 comments covering that. And nothing will ever be the same again I believe, and the backlash has just begun. And I believe that this outcome was Hamas's plan. For me, that's the sheer mechanics of it, and not assigning blame, excuses or approval.

Francie Barrett

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/israel-ap-palestinians-gaza-strip-tel-aviv-b2512210.html

Will be interesting to see the Hamas reaction to this given how they shield themselves using innocent civilians. If they try to stop the people from leaving, that would truly be a genocide on their part. If they let the people leave, then they are trapped in an enclosed area and really at the mercy of indiscriminate bombing. The situation for them is truly bleak.

The only rational decision for Hamas is to release the hostages and work out a surrender deal. Unfortunately we're not dealing with rational people.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890257#Comment_121890257

I don't think there is any doubt that hamas is interested in protecting its own people, they are thugs, or surrendering to the Israelis themselves or the hostages. I'm not sure why posters are pushing this narrative as a likely solution given what has happened so far.

Interesting that you acknowledge that if Hamas don't let the people in Rafah leave that they may be a genocide. Usually Israeli supporters tend to shy away from that phrase.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890257#Comment_121890257

Ah yes. more IDF gaslighting. I find it amazing how many gullible people are so willing to gobble it up.

Reminds me of the one a few months back when they helpfully suggested that a million or so refugees could move to something like a 1km x 1km stretch of wilderness waste ground ...... and then bombed it anyway.

Battered wife syndrome. Just explain to them why it's actually their fault that you are beating and killing them. Or even better still, convince yourself why they deserve it.

A more rational decision for Hamas via-a-vis the hostages would be to execute them. It would expose the lie that the Israelis are only committing their genocide to get them back. And if the Israelis were actually being truthful (if such a thing were hypothetically possible) then it removes their claimed motivation for the ongoing genocide.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890307#Comment_121890307

Civilians aren't supposed to be used as human shields, it's a war crime and forbidden according to the Geneva Convention. If Hamas attempt to prevent civilians from evacuating to a safe zone, then they are a party to genocide.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890314#Comment_121890314

A more rational decision for Hamas via-a-vis the hostages would be to execute them.

The mask slips.

"I don't support Hamas, but I am for them killing innocent hostages".

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890361#Comment_121890361

Party to a genocide perpetrated by the Israelis then? I think the West should work to prevent the deaths then.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889869#Comment_121889869

You keep repeating this over and over and over, playing this as the poor Israel card as if what has happened over the course of its existence was not inevitable. So let me try again as you completely ignored my last post on this.

It was the Zionists choice to try and set up a state in lands already occupied. They knew the consequences they would face, and just in case there was any doubt, the Crane-King commission of 1920 laid it out in plain writing, it was a bad idea that would lead to bloodshed and they would be better of looking for somewhere else to settle. The Zionists were always fully aware that the creation of any state would be soaked in bloodshed, but they were willing to pay that price. Foolishly the British backed them in their project, then realised belatedly it was going to be a disaster as predicted, passed the buck to the UN who solidified an already bad situation with their partition plan. It was inevitable that Israel would be attacked as the British and subsequently UN completely ignored the wishes ot the majority of the population. You make your bed and you lie in it, the Zionists always knew the risks so they can hardly play the poor little victim now.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890392#Comment_121890392

If Israel makes an attempt to move enemy non combatant's to a safe area where humanitarian aid is made available but it's Hamas who prevents that, then it's Hamas who are responsible for any war crimes.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890497#Comment_121890497

You said it would make hamas a party to genocide. That suggests there is another party ie. Israel. At least you admit it will be genocide I suppose. Hopefully you don't support it when it happens then.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890257#Comment_121890257

You're right. Israel has stopped being rational around October 9th or 10th. No dealing with them.

Hamas are using tunnels is it? No it's human shields? No they're using ambulances? Nope, aid convoys.

Thrust of the matter is, Israel hasn't a clue at this stage. They've already shown they will kill indiscriminately whether Hamas are present or not.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890497#Comment_121890497

Israel has moved them many times and bombed them. That's got nothing to do with Hamas.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890391#Comment_121890391

Not what is remotely said.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890497#Comment_121890497

Israel is committing war crimes since Oct 7th. They are no better than Hamas, make no mistake.