Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132281#Comment_122132281

I think the mass rapes have never been proven as opposed to debunked. There's enough reports that some sexual assaults/rapes probably occurred, but they didn't perform autopsies and a lot of the evidence is from third parties.

I'm 100% sure that hamas killed civilians. Although there's a good chance that Israel killed some when they were attacking hamas fighters, the vast majority of civilians were killed by Hamas.

The thing is that hamas lost a lot of legitimacy when they attacked civilians. If they'd only attacked military objectives, then a lot more people would have sympathy for them. The situation of gaza is horrible and people would understand attacking Israeli military targets

And I'd say the same about Israel. If Israel wasn't killing so many civilians and completely leveling entire cities, a lot of people would have more support for them.

For me personally, neither side have my support. My support is with the innocent civilians on both sides who have been affected by all this.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132281#Comment_122132281

I have to slightly disagree with this. Regardless of the cannibal directive and what exactly happened on October 7th I think Hamas are terrorists.

The reason i say this is because let's not forget they used to send suicide bombers into Israel to target and kill Israeli civilians in restaurants and other places. If they solely targeted the IDF I would see them as a legitimate resistance group. Some would still class them as terrorists but yet these very same posters supported the likes of Irgun and Hagannah who fought the British. A glaring double standard.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132439#Comment_122132439

”I think the mass rapes have never been proven as opposed to debunked.”

Did they wear condoms? Rape on mass scale should be somewhat readily provable surely with physical evidence from victims. I find it bizarre if it hasn’t been proven in whole or in part.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132281#Comment_122132281

Going by figures a few months ago the death toll from the attack was 767 civilians, 20 hostages and 376 members of the security forces, giving a total of 1,163. 
Not a small number of civilians by any means and yes Hamas did rape some women - I find it extraordinary that this event on that day is still minimised by “pro-Palestine” supporters - it would be laughable if it weren’t so serious

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132458#Comment_122132458

Fair point. However, when I look at what Israel are doing it puts it in a different context.

If slaves revolted and attacked the slavers, would you blame slavery or the slaves? This doesn't excuse the horrific suicide bombings but I very much view the Israeli's as terrorist cowardly oppressors causing the problems.

If there were equity in the region between the factions and still Hamas was using violence it would be a different story, to me anyway.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132473#Comment_122132473

There were no autopsies or rape kits used afterwards. So there's no physical evidence. there's enough reports that it's impossible that all could be false like the baby stories. But there's not evidence to suggest it was widespread.

I've said it before, but the Israeli authorities shot themselves in the foot by not clamping down on the false stories that circulated afterwards. Loads of people died that day. There was more than enough horror. By not stamping out the fake stories and rumours it made it possible to start dismissing the horrible stuff that actually happened.

Overheal

reportedly Israeli settlers destroying aid convoys today

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/xVtSSWqO8z

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132566#Comment_122132566

To answer your question, I think both Sinwar and Bibi should be in the Hague. I don't condone targeting civilians no matter who does it. Pro Israelis will try to claim the IDF doesn't target civilians, however if you drop a 1200 pound bomb on a refugeee camp full of civilians that is an act of terror as far as i am concerned. If any other country did that, the Americans would be calling for sanctions-but of course it was done with bombs supplied by the Biden administration. Joe is suddenly concerned about civilians casualties because he losing votes in the US.

riffmongous

Hamas are evil, there is no question about it. They deliberately target and do despicable things to civilians. They need to go if Palestine is to have any chance of peace, and it's important not to lose sight of that, or fall into the immoral hole of justifying what they do.

However, Israel will not be able to get rid of them nor does it seem like they actually want to. They are only reinforcing Hamas and it's ideology with their actions, while at the same time hoping to genocide and cleanse as many ordinary Palestinians as they can get away with.

A reformed PA with the backing of the international community to save the West Bank is the only way peaceful way forward imo.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132473#Comment_122132473

I find it quite disgusting how the 'me too' movement seems to end at Israeli women.

What happened to the whole 'I believe her' thing?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133207#Comment_122133207

Even the UN dismissed it until they couldn't.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133207#Comment_122133207

oh, ”me too,” “believe all women,” well then,

Wanna talk about Israel raping its prisoners? 😶

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/02/new-reports-confirm-months-of-israeli-torture-abuse-and-sexual-violence-against-palestinian-prisoners/

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/05/gazan-detainees-beaten-and-sexually-assaulted-at-israeli-detention-centres-un-report-claims

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132101#Comment_122132101

There was someone on Newstalk this morning who stated that Hamas is again active in Northern Gaza after the IDF and Bibi said it was defeated there. He said that the Israelis had ensured that Hamas would survive as the relatives of those bombed and killed were now joining and would probably continue to do so as as such Hamas would be even stronger. In essence what Israel is doing is securing the future of Hamas. Many posters here have been saying the same thing all along.

The way to defeat Hamas is to give the Palestinian people respect and their own state. Stop stealing their land and treat them properly and there will be no need for Hamas in the future. There are better ways instead of murdering their children. That has never worked anywhere.

tayto lover

Good post and speaks for many of us. Though there would be no Hamas military wing if Palestinians were treated properly and not regarded as 'human animals'.

Markus Antonius

I haven't been following any live warzone footage, but every now and again a video is shown in the news of Ukrainian soldiers dropping a grenade into a group of Russian soldiers or something of this sort. Is there any shred of footage of any Hamas solider in active combat? (not including October 7th).

With all the bodycams the IDF have, there would surely be a myriad of videos showing engagement with Hamas fighters?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133771#Comment_122133771

especially of alleged human shielding

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133207#Comment_122133207

There is a difference between a woman saying "I was attacked" and known propagandists coming out with stories about "women were raped".

I could probably find a post on twitter from some right wing loon saying 10,000 women were attacked by one illegal migrant out at Crooksling …… doesn't mean I have to believe it just because the loon says it happened to women.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133816#Comment_122133816

See, if it's Israeli women, we need the worlds best possible proof, correct?

This is tedious, the thread was over the rape issue and it came down to 'Israel should've done rape kits' or some other nonsense. No one sensible denies the rapes, most try not to deflect from them, either.

Even the UN agrees: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68474899

It's not like Hamas invaded and served tea and biscuits.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133771#Comment_122133771

Hard to know what is true or fake. Loads of videos like the one below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQHeY8KnUPM

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133795#Comment_122133795

The IDF, led by Zapp Brannigstien, have discovered that if you kill the hostages, Hamas can no longer use them as shields.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134031#Comment_122134031

So to sum up 'yez just hate the Jews'.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134031#Comment_122134031

We aren't anti semite or pro hamas, ( im assuming from your posts that you are not irish). None of your really long statement backs up the statement that we are antisemitic. If you are unconcerned about 30k people being killed in Gaza are you also unconcerned about the 1k Israelis killed by Hamas or the 200 Israeli hostages held by hamas? If you only concerned about the Israeli losses then you are providing more evidence that are you islamophobic then you have that the Irish are antisemitic.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134031#Comment_122134031

that’s a load of bull to respond to on mobile, but for starters the Syrian Civil War isn’t a war between ethnic groups like Hutus and Tutsis etc. so it’s hard to say how it’s a genocide, like was the U.S. Civil war a genocide? Those casualty numbers would make you blush, but brother fought brother across five Aprils as it were.

Israel’s genocide is quite clear it’s about ethnic and religious identity and Israeli officials have been openly calling for it - you know, mens rea: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/anatomy-genocide-report-special-rapporteur-situation-human-rights-palestinian-territories-occupied-1967-francesca-albanese-ahrc5573-advance-unedited-version

Ordering them to evacuate where? Ah yes into another country. Something Israel has the right to do? lol. Why doesn’t Israel evacuate there or just set up country there instead since it’s a great place for a bunch of lads to live, why bulldoze Palestinian homes and announce more illegal West Bank settlements? Fact is many people in Gaza already have long been living in refugee camps because of Israel telling them to “evacuate” during war crimes like the Nakba etc which they openly state they want to do a second Nakba in response to October 7 - ya know, mens rea. It seems abundantly clear evacuating them to the desert is hardly some fashionable humanitarian gesture but a component of the ethnic cleansing. And the glib and banal dead horse about percentage of population - do you really think that disproves genocide? In addition to the article I just linked here’s the US Holocaust Memorial Museums own definition of genocide find me where it says something to the effect of “it’s not genocide until 2% of the gene pool is slaughtered”

https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide

I’ll wait

ZeroThreat

'People from the outside looking in can see the frantic nature and the lack of critical thinking of the Irish people who all roll in together in this poisonous agenda. Martin called for withholding of food to be considered genocide at the ICJ. His propoganda of the famine being genocide and his parties clandestine raison d’etre since the existence of the IRB of liberating Ireland from the UK and removing any remnants of its people in Ireland is sickening to see. What happens when Ireland is liberated? There is no longer an alleged evil to destroy? It’s such a small man thing to do to try and drive home the dagger into your opponents heart at the outbreak of humanitarian situation to frame withholding of food as genocide.'

Huh? - M. Martin is trying to remove British people from Ireland?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133838#Comment_122133838

400,000 Palestinian women and teenage girls were raped by the IDF last year. I read it on a twitter post under the handle "deathtothejews".

Are you going to tell me that you don't believe those women? Or is it the case that see, if it is a Palestinian teenage girl, we need the world's best possible proof, correct?

So what is your conclusion? Are you able to distinguish between the claim of a propagandist and the claim of an individual ………. or only when it suits your own particular hatred?

AllForIt

https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2024/0513/1448958-rte-tv-eurovision-viewing-figures-highest-since-2018/

Looks like they didn't quite pull off the boycott 🤣

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134261#Comment_122134261

I believe what the UN published. Do you? Repeated by the BBC - do you believe them?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134337#Comment_122134337

The UN: https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/02/1146667

Repeated by the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68514816.amp

Do you believe them or are these “deflections” as a previous post of yours insinuated?

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134031#Comment_122134031

Sorry, what was that you said ?

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134267#Comment_122134267

+ BBC and Youtube viewership? Some people went BBC for Norton over Marty's commentary. And youtube for none.

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-vote-israel-eurovision-6378306-May2024/

• “In the Eurovision, we can estimate from previous Eurovisions that about 6% of people who watch the Eurovision actually cast a vote – and the number of people who watch is itself a small subset of the population.

Back to main discussion and sorry for off thread discussion?

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/israel-restarts-fighting-north-gaza-military-strategy-mime-intl/index.html

• The Israeli military has renewed its fighting in northern Gaza where it previously claimed to have dismantled Hamas’ command structure. But it now says the Palestinian militant group is trying to “reassemble” in the area, raising doubts about whether Israel’s goal to eradicate the group in the enclave is realistic.

So bad news for Gaza strip!

Fuascailteoir

There is footage at one of the crossing points of hundreds of Israelis attacking an aid convoy and are totally unimpeded. The viciousness of this act is extremely vile.

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134031#Comment_122134031

Practically everything you said there is contrary to international law and at best forms the basis for ethnic cleansing and a worst genocide. The fact that you think that is grand is troubling

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134556#Comment_122134556

I wouldn’t worry, it’s a prepared statement especially prepared for us to gaslight “the Irish people”

the not making their mind up on if their Irish or not and the shoehorning in of irishisms is a tell tale sign. That’s ignore all bull S of the contents of the essay which appears to be formulated by some mix of chat GPT and a monkey chained to a desk.

“
allegedly, according to the Irish people is an attempt to slaughter the population of Gaza despite a very small proportion of them suffering death so far.

“

“

what happened at the Eurovision was embarrassing to see us portray ourselves as such strong anti Israel proponents on the European and world stage.

“

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134310#Comment_122134310

"Hey look over there".

Were you, by the same measure, equally as supportive of all genocidal regimes in history? Aren't you a bit hypocritical to be so supportive of the Zionists if you haven't been equally as supportive of other similar criminal enterprises?

Were you as steadfast in your support of Russians butchering civilians in Bucha? If not, why not? Using your own example, were you equally as supportive of Assad doing said butchering?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134337#Comment_122134337

Seems like you are in denial now. Trying like mad to shift goalposts. What do those Palestinian women have to do to get the benefit of your belief?

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133207#Comment_122133207

No women have come forward claiming to have been raped and there's no evidence of rape and certainly no evidence of mass rape.

Believe who? The Israeli liars that are murdering children in their thousands?

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134238#Comment_122134238

Out of curiosity, and without you producing another word soup, can you point to actual (i.e. real) examples of where Sinn Féin called to "wipe out the Brits", during the Troubles or at other times?

Overheal

this morning I had some silly people elsewhere on social media with agendas tag me in claims from Fox News and other drive by punditry that the UN “halved” the number of children and women killed in Gaza overnight, parading this as “proof” that the numbers were all made up…

The UN has this afternoon clarified that’s horse ****. They revised the numbers listed to those “fully identified.” There are still 10,000 going through full identification. This means we know with even greater confidence that at least as many women and children died as in the revised figures

“What’s changed is the Ministry of Health in Gaza has updated the breakdown of fatalities, for whom full details have been documented. So what they recently published was that they gave figures for 24,686 out of 34,622 overall fatalities recorded in Gaza. And those 24,686 people are the ones for whom full details have been documented.”

“In other words, people who have been fully identified, out of those, then out of that smaller number, that subset of identified bodies, you have 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men,”

“And the Ministry of Health says that the documentation process of fully identifying details of the casualties is ongoing. Meanwhile, as you can see, if you do the math that there’s about another 10,000 plus bodies who are still have to be fully identified. And so then the details of those which of those are children, which of those are women that will be reestablished once the full identification process is complete. We, our teams in Gaza, are unable to identify, independently verified these figures, given the situation on the ground and the continuing combat and the sheer number of fatalities. And so we, cite the Ministry of Health as the source for our figures.”

https://www.mediaite.com/media/not-quite-the-case-no-spokesperson-rebuts-claims-un-halved-death-toll-of-women-and-children-in-gaza/

It appears the UN is still on course to corroborate the GHMs figures as it has in all recent conflicts:

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134941#Comment_122134941

I read your post, it's dribble. The use of percentages and the lack of knowing what genocide actually is doesn't surprise me. Your post doesn't warrant being replied to other than to say, poor effort try harder.

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134031#Comment_122134031

34,000 as a percent of 2 million is 1.7%, hardly a good attempt at slaughtering a population or replacing them. If we look on the other hand to another more very grave and brutal conflict, of which, there wasn’t a peep out of the Irish people in relation to, the Syrian civil war we see this hypocricy. In that conflict 617,000 out of 22,000,000 is a staggering 2.8% of the population albeit the war has been going in since 2013. 

I guess if we did nothing about Syria we're not allowed help Gaza or Ukraine or anybody else. Also, the fighting is in Gaza, which has a smaller population than two million.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133207#Comment_122133207

I will wholeheartedly believe any israeli woman who says she was raped and/or sexually assaulted. the problem is that I don't know if any have. A lot of the reports are third hand. And unfortunately they can be groups in with the reports that a holocaust survivor was killed and all the babies were killed.

That's why I said I have no doubt that something happened, but the widespread nature of it has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

You might say, why would they make up such disgusting lies. Why would anyone create such stories? People lied about babies and holocaust survivors. That's disgusting. So yeah, it's right to ask for evidence.

And others have said, do you believe the evidence collected that Palestinian women have been subjected to sexual abuse? Or does your "I Believe her" stop when it's not an israeli.

Seriously, for once be critical in your assessment.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135599#Comment_122135599

So TLDR is you don't.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134031#Comment_122134031

Someone doesn't know what a genocide is.

Good old Israel warning people to evacuated to a rented city that can accommodate at best a couple thousand people, but they're trying to move over 300,000 there, while blocking aid, not having water or sanitation

Good old Israel they've only killed 1.7 % of the population, but they have brought 100,000s more to the brink of life altering disease and then there's the 1000,000 or more who have been injured or wounded for whom life will never be the same again.

You see it's not, and never about the pure numbers.

We had a poster here saying Israel faced an existential threat etc the killing done by Israel in 75 years far, far outweighs anything they've received

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135602#Comment_122135602

I've stated many times that there's enough reports that I believe rapes/sexual assaults happened. However according to Israeli reports it's on a scale that dwarfs what we can confirm. And we have no reason to believe them when they lied about so many other things and have no evidence except for third hand accounts that it occured.

I will believe any woman that said she was raped. I will believe any medical evidence. I won't believe rumors.


Edited for typos

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134406#Comment_122134406

Two things can be true simultaneously: what the UN has claimed re: Palestinians, and what the UN has stated re: Hamas's rapes.

Do you agree? Deflections were attempted to justify Hamas's behavior in my opinion.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134816#Comment_122134816

Do you deny what the UN has reported about the rapes by Hamas of Israeli hostages? Do you think it didn't happen, or it's o.k. because some twitter rando you quoted says Israel's done worse?

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103792#Comment_122103792

I am as confused as ever as to where the truth lies in all the statistics coming out of Gaza from all sources. We have been led to believe that famine is JUST around the NEXT corner so the place must be, therefor full of proverbial walking skeletons. BUT on the BBC last night we saw tremendous jubilation last night in Gaza out celebration the pending and hopefully an actual end to the hostilities . There was a lot of young people /teenagers amongst the crowd- singing, dancing and generally jumping around the place - each one looking healthier than the other.

The only explaination I have for those starving/near famine is that some are given little food while others are well fed . We are fed , on TV , skeleton looking children -just skin and bone in some cases

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122136033#Comment_122136033

I wouldn't think using TV coverage is a great way to guage if a famine is imminent. The UN World Food Program Head has warned of a famine just last week and I haven't seen any reports questioning their credibility.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122136033#Comment_122136033

You do realise that there's areas where people are trapped and cannot leave and those areas have been described as near famine. That means that in those areas people are already far less calories than they need per day. they are slowly starving to death. many are already experiencing severe malnutrition.

Just google Photo's of Famine in Gaza and you'll find plenty of photographic evidence.

There's far less food entering Gaza than there was before the war thanks to the Israeli blockade. And there's some areas where that aid can't reach because internally Israel is also blocking trucks or it's just too dangerous. Obviously there's going to be starving people.

I remember earlier in this thread someone claimed that Hamas were deliberately locking away gazans and starving them. and were then wheeling them out. The mental gymnastics that someone would have to do to reach those conclusions.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122136656#Comment_122136656

America has funded terrorism when it has suited them, always has done, always will do.

To claim otherwise is denying some hard facts of history.

Cuba, Nicaragua, Italy, Lebanon, Syria, Colombia are just some of the countries which have been subject to American funding of acts of terrorism.

I take my critical analysis from having studied American history up to a master's level, including several modules on foreign policy in the Clinton institute in UCD. I've researched and written on America's foreign policy in the late 19th century,

I've done a thesis on it's westward expansion, with a particular focus on military cartography and it's strategic importance in meeting it's "manifest destiny."

So no, I don't take anything from the realms of Russian disinformation.

America is not a peacekeeper of the world, not has it ever been. Its a keeper of its own interests. If it had not so much investment in Israel and vice versa, they would not be standing for what is happening, but business Trump's humanity with them, and always will.

My country has not used acts of terrorism thank you very much. A terrorist group from my country has. Go take your ignorance somewhere else. If you have proof of the IRA being state sponsored, go ahead and show it. There's probably some thing, no doubt about it, but for **** sake to try and claim America is not involved in terrorism is the height of someone who swallows the hurrah for the military, we are saving the world us propaganda machine.