Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

tayto lover

https://www.timesofisrael.com/despite-bidens-pause-billions-of-dollars-in-us-arms-for-israel-still-in-pipeline/

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122304502#Comment_122304502

https://www.timesofisrael.com/despite-bidens-pause-billions-of-dollars-in-us-arms-for-israel-still-in-pipeline/

That's according to a GOP Senator (speaking of "known liars" - Risch in particular still pretends insurrectionists didn't destroy his office and endorsed Trump for president this cycle) and even as he puts it, still being slow walked and the arms in question,

joint direct attack munitions (JDAMS), which convert dumb bombs into precision weapons; and tank rounds, mortars and armored tactical vehicles

…have been held up since, wait for it: december. Risch notes for the media that Israel under normal circumstances gets fast-tracked for approval in a matter of weeks - yet, for months, these shipments have been delayed.

Huh. Imagine that. It's almost as if the US is actually delaying shipments to Israel. "Inconceivable!"

And still, no more current reporting indicating this cache of weapons has indeed made it out of the "pipeline" TM. And the F-16s mentioned in the article, still not approved. And 2,000 and 500 lb bombs, no deliveries in sight.

Ten of Swords

@ToweringPerformance threadbanned

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122304480#Comment_122304480

It's in some that you yourself linked ffs. Now you're being specific. 2000lb bombs were paused. Not all weapons.

So are you no going by certain arms are not being shipped or no arms are being shipped in an attempt to move goalposts.

sock.rocker*

https://old.reddit.com/r/iamatotalpieceofshit/comments/1dojrwf/i_am_personally_proud_of_the_ruins_of_gaza_and/

Incredibly strong Hitler vibes from Israel's Minister for Social Equality and Minister for Women's Empowerment.

She posts it on her Twitter with some of it quoted.

https://x.com/GolanMay/status/1759675501424042329

"I am personally proud of the ruins of Gaza, and that every baby, even 80 years from now, will tell their grandchildren what the Jews did when they murdered their families, raped them and kidnapped their citizens!"

I assume in the last part, she is referring to Hamas, and not the IDF's murder, rape, and kidnappings.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122305390#Comment_122305390

sourcing:

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-minister-says-proud-of-gaza-destruction/3144918

A few months old but absolutely horrendous. And an acknowledgement of the existence of Israeli “dungeons” (most moral democracy TM) and her screed very much in terms of ethnic war (“Jews” etc)

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122305658#Comment_122305658

No we did not. You're tying yourself up in disingenuous replies here and trying to change what it is you've said. Weapons are still being sent. Netanyahu says as much himself In your links. Just not as many as he wants and not the specifically paused ones.

Prove that they're only sending iron dome missiles. Go on?

He waited until **** May to do anything. He let the us export nearly 5 times the amount of weapons it normally does.

He did nothing while 27000 people were killed by Christmas.

Sanctioning us citizens who are settlers. Big slow clap. Real bold move there

That is not mitigating the carnage. Words and gestures. Like those who condemn gun violence but will shoot you if you try to take their gun away

You are completely and utterly deluded if you can't accept the Biden and his administration deserves criticism. Just as the UK, France, Germany etc does.

What we don't know, because it's not included in the export reports to and they don't have to tell Congress is how many of the massive amount of stockpiled weapons the US has in Israel have also been given over to the IDF.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306041#Comment_122306041

”He waited until **** May” you say, but we have evidence above that the pipeline PM has been delayed since December. ???

Your claim that he did ‘nothing by Christmas’ is clearly unsubstantiated

Keep your personal attacks out of your post, please. I think you know better? You’re talking to me like I postmarked the bombs personally, previously calling me “complicit.” I prefer we keep it civil. It and every one of your posts has been personally hostile for the last few days, starting at least with an out of line demand I “really need to stop” supporting Biden in an upcoming election against Trump Heights himself, father in law to Jared beach front property Kushner

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122300184#Comment_122300184

I'm not saying you're wrong however all I am finding is articles of Netayahu posturing that US has stopped supplying munitions, and responses from the US stating they havent.

'Netanyahu claimed on Tuesday that the Biden administration was “withholding weapons” in a video posted to X, claiming that Secretary of State Antony Blinken “assured me that the administration is working day and night to remove these bottlenecks.”

In response, US envoy Amos Hochstein told Netanyahu that his comments were “unproductive” and “more importantly, completely untrue.”

Its entirely possible they've cease dumb bombs, but I dont believe, as it looks like things are esclating with Hezbollah that shipments have ceased entirely. Both sides are bad actors, and I frankly wouldnt believe a word out of Bibi's mouth.

You state theres no evidence shipments are flowing, theres also no evidence they're not.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122302673#Comment_122302673

Some more footage of Israel defending itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reF-iLVWWhs

Brussels Sprout

A perfect example of why so many American politicians fear criticising Israel happened last night.

Jamal Bowman defeated one of the biggest pro-Israel Democrats (Eliot Engels) in a primary in 2020 and has spoken candidly about Israel and their actions ever since.

AIPAC went after him big time in this primary this cycle, pumping so much money ($15m) into the campaign that it broke the record for a House primary election. They were ultimately successful. He will now be replaced by another Israel can do no wrong Democrat.

That will put the frighteners on every other politician on Capital Hill when it comes to standing up for Palestinians.

AIPAC combined with the ludicrous Citizens United supreme court ruling gives Israel free reign to do this kind of action. One of the many ways that American democracy is deeply flawed (See also: partisan redistricting, voter suppression, the overwhelming use of first past the post).

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306065#Comment_122306065

What evidence do we have? Are you ignoring the census bureau data that shows 4-5 times the normal amount of weapons were exported to israel by the USA from January-April 2024. I think you are.

I've never said he has not delayed deliveries, paused deliveries or withheld specific weapons, but there are still deliveries were still regular exports up until the end of april 2024.

Give us some detail for once instead of endless link dumps with no context and something to actually back up your claims that Biden has done anything remotely significant or impactful to reign in Netanyahu and Israel. Sanctioned settlers, a few soundbites and the May pause on delivery of very specific but not all weapons. You need to learn to comprehend that it is specific weapons and stop trying to move the goalposts,

In some of your link dumps, there are things to contradict some of your claims too

BIDEN absolutly deserves criticism. That you can't accept that is a reflection on you and nobody else. And I'm not blaming him for all of this, I'm not saying he has sole responsibility to prevent it. But he has been wholly ineffective and poor as he is trying to save his own political skin.

So what if it means he wins in November. If he can't be stronger on Israel and still beat Trump, he's an even worse president than I'd have given him credit for. He's the best of a very poor pair.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306336#Comment_122306336

Indeed, but this is also one of the situations where there should be proof positive, and there’s no positive proof, and a lot of posturing and bluster (from republicans, Likud, etc) that things are being slowed down or delayed or not showing up - some claims indicating as long as December this has been going on for.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306695#Comment_122306695

And, not once did I say he didn’t deserve any criticism or that his administration didn’t deserve any - you’d find my first post in this thread concerned a fiery rant against Blinken and his “ten 9/11s” commentary which, predictably, preluded greater than 10 fallujahs worth of reaction from Israel.

Let’s be precise with criticism though, previous users debasing the discussion to over the top nicknames for Biden without being checked on it by anyone else is not due criticism, and has only the effect of campaigning for his rival - someone who was and will, demonstrably, be worse for the Palestinians that Biden ever has been.

What’s in my linkdumps TM are again also hearsay, you are quick to call out taking Biden at his word but again as I stated, ambassadors aren’t truth sayers either. And I provided context for the links I put up, it’s not accurate to claim I didn’t.

Deserving criticism is a two way street with deserving credit when it is equally due. We seem to overlap in that there has definitely been a suspension of arms flow since at least April if not earlier.

If he wins in November AIPAC will have considerably less leverage and Biden will have considerably more leverage over Israel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306627#Comment_122306627

And, this is precisely the political problem that is or will target Biden over the next few months. In March Politico reported AIPAC “uncorks” $100M to unseat unfavorable politicians, not just Bowman. There will be more where that came from. Politico also reported a few weeks ago that AIPAC has now become the single largest GOP donor org into Democratic primaries. “Nearly half of AIPAC donors to Democratic candidates this year have a history of giving to Republican campaigns or committees.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/03/aipac-israel-spending-democratic-primaries-00144552#:~:text=AIPAC%20uncorks%20%24100%20million%20war,more%20of%20them%20this%20time.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/09/aipac-republican-donors-democratic-primaries-00162404

Sudden Valley

There seems to be more talk now about an offensive against Hezbollah then there is on the ceasefire deal.

I think biden announced a very under cooked ceasefire deal, nearly over a month ago now, and it seems to be dying a slow death.

I can't see anything changing with Bibi so I think the only hope is that Biden is put under pressure the closer it gets to the Democratic National Convention.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306839#Comment_122306839

And how many more thousands will be dead in November. There were opportunities not necessarily to stop this, but to make meaningful action and make it as hard as possible for Israel to cause the destruction and death they have and it wasn't done.

You keep getting very childish at any criticism of Biden with meme trump replies and it's not just those with childish nicknames. It's those who are looking at the complete and utter lack of action of any meaningful kind to in anyway put a stop on Israel leveling Gaza. That's the problem. He absolutely deserves every bit of criticism coming his way. He has been poor at handling this from his end.

What is in your linkdunps you are posting repeat as they are fact. This is the first time you've bothered rowing back on it. So you don't get to demand proof when you are as guilty of offering questionable evidence and little to no data and when you are hand selecting parts of journalism pieces to suit your line.

Either look at it all honestly or don't bother.

There are very recent updates re arms etc., this evening. Look 'em up. Don't want to post a link as some won't trust it and anyway, it will be denied by one side or the other very soon.

Maybe move on from the issue anyway as few know the reality. And rain is coming tomorrow over much of Ireland but maybe not over the Bog of Allen. A chance this evening for an extra walk for the dog.

Sudden Valley

Ah I see that now. Biden still sending arms. Misunderstanding on netanyahus part.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122307961#Comment_122307961

This is a poor copout for burden of proof.

Nothing has changed today from what has already been discussed here, other than more flapping of gums. "significant progress" TM, "worked through misunderstandings" TM "real progress" TM according to "a senior administration official" TM but no approved deliveries, or sales, or received shipments, or any official statement with a WH name attached to it, or from State.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/concluding-meetings-gallant-hails-significant-progress-in-resolving-us-arms-holdup/

https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-hamas-war-gaza-US/?id=111357096

The only thing that changed today is Biden approved an arms shipment (ghasp!) worth $360M (GHASP!) For Taiwan (oh.) as officiated by State Department:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/us-approves-new-300-million-arms-sale-taiwan-111238091

Please, don't make excuses for not having proof for claims made.

Weepsie

In the above link the language suggests weapons are still being sent

And in the aljazeera link it's a bit more specific on what is not being sent.ao maybe let's put to bed the notion that America is not sending weapons once and for all just because it's not sending some very specific ones

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/26/gallants-us-trip-strengthens-potential-challenge-to-israels-netanyahu

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122308701#Comment_122308701

It shouldn't really come to a shock to anyone that out of the two men Bibi is lying. He is trying to make Biden look bad with pro Israel voters to help his mate Trump.

There is no way in hell that Biden, an ardent Israel supporter for decades is going to be in secret slowing down arms to them. It is not in his character and wouldn't make sense for someone whose primary objective is to get re-elected. Biden hasn't suddenly grown a conscience.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122308849#Comment_122308849

I'm not disputing that supply has slowed down, I'm disputing that weapons are not sent at all. Some weapons are not being sent anymore, or for the time being, chiefly 2000 and 500lb dumb bombs, but others are

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122308855#Comment_122308855

If Bidens team is going line by line on arms shipments with the Israelsi I think that diminishes the idea that Bibi was being accurate at all. Will be interesting to see what public statements are made by both parties next.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/26/politics/us-arms-shipments-israel/index.html

Weepsie

This is the important part of the article. Which is basically what I had been saying. Specific weapons are not being shipped as of May. The rest is as normal. So the us are still arming Israel. We'll have a but more info when export data is updated for May, and that will be nd of next wweek or early the week after. But once again, it's putting to bed one posters continued claims that they have not been sending weapons/arming Israel

The US has paused one shipment of weapons to Israel, which includes 500-pound and 2000-pound bombs over concerns to the potential for civilian casualties if such weapons were used in densely populated areas in Gaza.

“We paused that one shipment,” Pentagon press secretary Maj. Gen. Pat Ryder said at a press briefing on Monday. “Everything else continues to flow on schedule as normal. It is not diminished.”

tayto lover

After the Iraq debacle with the Weapons of mass Destruction I find it impossible to believe anything the US states. It is easy to say that you're not supplying weapons while doing it covertly anyway.

Weepsie

Well generally Congress has to be notified. There is an exception for things such as the massive stockpile of weapons already in Israel and maintained since he 1960s.

Lyndon B. Johnson said he wouldn't or maybe shouldn't export weapons and did it anyway so it's not like it would be a new thing to do the thing you know is a bad idea

sock.rocker*

US officials went line-by-line through arms shipments to Israel with defense minister to rebut Netanyahu’s delay claim

“We paused that one shipment,” Pentagon press secretary Maj. Gen. Pat Ryder said at a press briefing on Monday. Everything else continues to flow on schedule as normal. It is not diminished.”

A certain poster here could have the most enlightening moment of his adult life if he could stand back and realise that for the last few days, he's been engaging in the exact head-in-the-sand and denial of reality behaviour he believes only Trump supporters engage in.

The next step is telling himself that of course these weapons shipments were happening, but it's the US government, and Congress, and the Pentagon, and Trump, and everyone else that make them happen, and it has nothing to do with Biden whatsoever.

sock.rocker*

“We have fought in the Israeli courts for years against this as most of the village is under threat of demolition and they have done this before,” said Eid Suleiman, a resident. “But they came this time without telling our lawyer. We didn’t have time to collect our belongings.

“We have put up some tents to keep the children cool in the heat. But we are afraid the soldiers will come back and take those too because they say we are building illegally.”

Masafer Yatta, a collection of shepherding hamlets including Umm al-Kheir, is located in area C, the sparsely populated 60% of the West Bank under full Israeli control. Palestinian infrastructure in the area is frequently demolished on the grounds that the residents do not have building permits, which are nearly impossible to obtain, while surrounding illegal Israeli settlements flourish. UN experts have said such demolitions can be considered war crimes.

Just another day in the West Bank. Lives ruined by colonialist theft of land. All supported by the West.

Odhinn

More on the above -

" Through cooperation and collaboration among the military, police,
settlers and the Jordan Valley Regional Council, Israel has reduced
grazing areas available to Palestinians, blocked regular water supply
and took measures to isolate the Jordan Valley from the rest of the West
Bank.

This policy is nothing new. Israel has been undermining these communities’ subsistence
for decades, in part, by denying Palestinians’ access to nearly 80% of
the Jordan Valley declared as firing zones, nature reserves or the
municipal area of settlements."

https://www.btselem.org/video/202403_israel_has_ramped_up_efforts_to_displace_shepherding_communities_in_the_northern_jordan_valley_since_7_october#full

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122316515#Comment_122316515

The only Democracy in the Middle East.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122317118#Comment_122317118

'a beacon of freedom', 'the light of freedom' etc. You occasionally wonder what it is that some people are on.

Francie Barrett

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sy9gogh8a

Interesting article that sheds light on how Hamas has been able to sustain their war effort despite what looks like a complete blockade.

If Israel can secure the territory beneath the Philadelphi Corridor that's already under their control, they will be able to do a lot of harm to Hamas.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122319535#Comment_122319535

Yet instead they just bomb the **** out of hospitals, refugee camps and civilians. If they really really wanted to root out and destroy them then they should have been looking at the supply line and the leaders in Qatar, but no they just decided to butcher ordinary Palestinians because they get away witg it

Odhinn

"Two more Palestinian men, injured during
a military operation in the occupied West Bank last week, have told the
BBC that Israeli soldiers forced them on to the bonnet of an army jeep
and drove them – sometimes at speed – along village roads.

Their accounts came days after footage of 23-year-old Mujahid Abadi Balas clinging to the bonnet of what appears to be the same Israeli army jeep sparked international outrage."

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cw4y91032d1o

It should be pointed out that using human shields was standard official practice until a number of years ago, until outlawed by the Israeli supreme court. Old habits seem hard to shake.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323358#Comment_122323358

No doubt the posters condemning Hamas for using human shields will be on here very soon to condemn the IDF for using human shields also.

pjordan

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0701/1457502-middle-east-gaza-israel/

This latest update from Gaza begs a couple of questions

1. For all the destruction caused in Gaza and in the face of the supposed might and intelligence of the IDF and the amount of boots on the ground and drones in the air, how are Islamic militants still able to accumulate the hardware and resources to fire off a sustained barrage of rockets like this 9 months into this conflict when most civilians in Gaza are at the pin of their collar trying to find food or sufficient fuel to cook it?
2. What purpose do these Islamic fanatics (or Hamas for that matter) serve to the ordinary long suffering citizens of Gaza with this farcical "show of strength" or defiance. Again for those wondering where their next meal is going to come from (I doubt something that concerns many militants or Hamas fighters) this is hardly a morale booster?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326036#Comment_122326036

There are 3 entities involved, Hamas, the IDF and the innocents. The innocents fear the other two and obviously keep their mouths shut in order to try to survive.

Fuascailteoir

Protest in Israel against a scheme to transfer seriously ill Gazans for treatment abroad. What kind of ghouls are these

Weepsie

And also the largest single landgrab for over 30 years by Israel

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-07-03-2024-033deab379a16efdf9989de8d6eaf0f8

nacho libre

I see Lord Cameron and his Government has taken a case challenging the remit of the ICC to seek arrest warrants for Bibi and Gallant

Francie Barrett

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0vewvp14zdo

One senior Hamas government employee told the BBC that the Hamas attacks were “a crazy, uncalculated leap”.

He asked that we concealed his identity.

“I know from my work with the Hamas government that it prepared well for the attack militarily, but it neglected the home front,” he said.

“They did not build any safe shelters for people, they did not reserve enough food, fuel and medical supplies. If my family and I survive this war, I will leave Gaza, the first chance I get.”

Netanyahu was right.

There can never be peace or a ceasefire with Hamas if they are willing to treat their own people this badly.

pjordan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338236#Comment_122338236

Yep, amid all the totally justified criticism of Netanyahu and the IDF, the role and contribution of Hamas to the fate and suffering of Gaza civilians really has been lost. I'm surprised that it's taken 10 months into the conflict for such disillusionment and negative criticism to become voiced (Although considering how ruthless Hamas have proven themselves to be, I suppose the fate for any potential dissenters is also pretty obvious).

It really is breathtaking as I mentioned further up the thread, how Hamas and other Islamic militants can still seemingly find the resources to continue a military offensive and maintain underground bunkers/havens and supply chains (and no doubt adequate food and medical supplies) for their combatants and leadership, whilst the general populace of Gaza are exposed to shellfire and attack in the open air and being left to slowly starve to death.

Quandary

Hamas are a barbaric organisation with little regard for the suffering of their own people, no doubt about it.

Lets be honest though, Israel don't really care about Hamas. In fact, this whole mantra of completely defeating Hamas is very convenient for Israel, because they know Hamas will always exist in some shape or form in Palestine. This means they can continue to obliterate every square inch of palestinian territory under the guise of rooting out Hamas. The real goal for Israel is to use this momentum to indirectly and sometimes directly target, murder and persecute palestinians in the hope that they will leave their homes for good and then Israel can permanently occupy their land. The amount of land grabbing happening right now is frightening.

The longer this war goes on, the better it is for the Israeli hard right ultras. Palestine will eventually, whether in our life times or not, be nothing but a memory.

Netanyahu and his crowd can do whatever they want at this stage, and they know it.

pjordan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338735#Comment_122338735

Yep I'd agree with a lot of that. Defeating Hamas has just become a convenient excuse for a lot in Israel and I expect there are a lot of developers and real estate types within Israel and among the Jewish community worldwide (Jared Kushner!) studying the devastation in Gaza and only seeing potential for condos and profit once the land is conveniently cleared of the current nuisance that occupy it! In fact I'd say there's a range of plans and preferential deals already drawn up for such eventuality.

There is a considerable irony in the fact that, a bit like cockroaches in a nuclear war, the ones most likely to survive the ongoing onslaught are the Hamas fighters, leadership and the extremists. The hope for Israel is that the longer it goes on the more likely that more and more ordinary Gazan's will decide to give up and move elsewhere, just as soon as the opportunity arises (and it is in the vested interest of surrounding Muslim countries to ensure that that doesn't happen!)

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338236#Comment_122338236

Of course what you wont acknowledge is that Bibi was perfectly content to shore up Hamas until it backfired on him. Bibi clearly doesn't want peace either. What unites Bibi and Hamas is their shared goal of survival at all costs regardless of what of the cost is to others. As an apologist for Israel, you will ignore there is a pair of them in it. In the same way you will be receptive to condemning Hamas for using human shields, but not a word from you when the IDF is caught doing it.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326036#Comment_122326036

The rockets probably aren't edible or suitable for liquefying for fuel for cooking etc.

It was 20 rockets. Hardly evidence of recent accumulation of anything. Far more likely just a local cache that was dormant in storage for months or years.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122339952#Comment_122339952

All irrelevant.

Hamas are acknowledged by all as the head of state of Gaza. They are the ones who launched their war of aggression against Israel. To this very moment they remain totally defiant.

This war could end tomorrow if Hamas wanted it to. The ball is in their court.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122340696#Comment_122340696

Well no. Netanyahu stated many times that it would not stop based on just eliminating Hamas (which is in and of itself not achievable anyway)

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122340696#Comment_122340696

It's very relevant, you dismiss it as irrelevant as you want to avoid criticising Nethanyu and Israel. If you were capable of being even handed you would acknowledge Nethanyu had stated many times the war will continue beyond any ceasefire. He knows when the war ends he is likely out on ear. It suits him perfectly fine to try to achieve a goal he probably knows is unattainable. He does not want peace and a moderate goverment in Gaza. He is on record as saying as much and his actions prior to October 7th make that clear.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122340696#Comment_122340696

Absolute nonsense. Israel was bombing Palestine the week before October 7th. I have absolutely zero respect for people who think this started with Hamas's attack.

Spudmonkey

Loads of footage coming out of Gaza this morning.

Including one of a babies head recovered from rubble and put into a bag and a girl who's had her jaw blown off.

But Hamas I suppose….