Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

WEST

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509279#Comment_122509279

Yet people still are 'pro Israel' like it is a football team. At least most people in Ireland see Israel as it is, a terrorist state. Hopfully other counties like the UK, France etcs will start to distance themselves from Israel. I'm not sure if the USA support will ever end, but I'm hopeful support will wain once the younger generation start to have a greater say in a decade or two (if they can avoid fox news).

So, Israel's a terrorist State now?

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509434#Comment_122509434

People who are that way in inclined will always used October 7th or Hamas as their reasoning for the IDF's continued annihilation of civilians inside Gaza. It's like some kind of comfort blanket that they can wrap themselves and convince themselves that Israel are in the morally correct position.

No such comfort blanket exists for what the settlers are doing in the West Bank. Nobody ever tries to justify it. Nobody tries to justify the IDF for being complicit in offering backup to these pogroms carried out by violent lunatics. Nobody tries to justify their continuing theft of internationally recognised Palestinian land to build more illegal settlements. Everybody knows that it's wrong.

That's why you won't hear a peep out of them about it. They won't try and justify it because they cannot justify it.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509501#Comment_122509501

Actually they do. We had Peggy justifying it on the basis that it was required for Israel 's defense. I see it regularly on the you tube comment section. You'll see excuses along the following lines: the land is theirs anyway; There is no such thing as Palestine;

All Palestinians are Hamas terrorists.

WEST

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509493#Comment_122509493

So far during August, we have the below reports from BBC. In many other videos we can see the IDF (who act on behalf of Israel) protecting the settlers while they attack\kill Palestinians and damage their property. Israel are doing these acts of terror and it is all caught on camera for the world to see. Swap, the words Israeli and Palestinian in the below headings to get the other sides perspective.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c623zkwd04qo

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd735zvg1q9o Israeli soldiers stated they had “encountered armed terrorists” and that “a customs officer Abdel Nasser was killed during exchanges of fire”. However, CCTV footage shows that this statement is false. Instead, Abdel Nasser was murdered in cold blood.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgrr0k7xkyo

Also from June, Israeli army strapped wounded Palestinian to military vehicle.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjqq5n8911do

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509493#Comment_122509493

It sure is. Indiscriminate shootings and bombings just like the terrorist group Hamas is. Israel is actually worse because it has US support and can get away with it.

thereiver

Hamas has said it does not want to meet and discuss a cease fire meanwhile causalitys in gaza are over 40k .Biden is going to be retired in a few months There's not much chance of America doing much about the crisis before the presidential election Iran and other groups have been meeting to decide what action to take in regard to attacking Israel so the outlook

at the moment is bleak . I think America is a democratic society but various politicians support Israel and Israel relys on a large supply of weapons from America there's only a small percent difference in the polls between trump and Harris so there's no sign of a change in policy at the moment in regard to the war in gaza

PeggyShippen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507364#Comment_122507364

There's been no 2,100 toddlers 'murdered' in Gaza. Thats a war zone and its terrible that theyve been killed from bombs ect. But not even Hamas are screaming they were murdered because they havent.

There was toddlers actually coldly 'murdered ' in Israel on October 7th in kindergartens and homes.. Shot and bashed and broken by Palestinians.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511378#Comment_122511378

by your same logic October 7 was an act of war and they weren’t murdered.

PeggyShippen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511967#Comment_122511967

No . You're completely wrong. For murder there has to be some sort of 'intent'. Babies , kids civilians get killed in wars . It's sad. It's still not murder. Check out the Geneva convention. What happened on October 7th was murder..plain and simple. Wanton murder, rape and burning. But you know all this.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512205#Comment_122512205

The Geneva convention that protects hospitals,schools and places of worship? Places that Israel has bombed to smithereens and in the knowledge that Israel has been sketchy with being able to prove they had any reliable proof of them being legitimate targets.

And sure, if there were no concerns ,there would be no warrant out for Netanyahu, and there would be nothing in front of the ICJ regarding Israel's conduct m

But here it is, Israel apologise, dead children are collateral damage. An argument t that was decisively eviscerated months ago on here.

And there are plenty of elected Israeli officials who have gone on the record in saying everyone in Gaza is a target.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511378#Comment_122511378

Sure if Hamas screamed they were murdered, people defending the IDF would just say it's Hamas, you can't believe them.

Dropping a 2000lb bomb onto an apartment block with complete disregard for civilian casualties is murder. No different than a gunman opening fire on a crowd of people with the aim to hit 1 target but kills a dozen innocent people.

Yes civilians do get killed in war, but when one side is being investigated for genocide (shows intent) it's very hard to play the self defense or 'collateral damage' card.

When a country is deliberately committing war crimes and targeting and destroying civilian infrastructure (university and water pumping station) which have zero military goals and zero terrorists in them, you can't just turn around and say they don't target civilians.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511378#Comment_122511378

I really wish you`d stop defending Israel and the IDF - Its getting tiresome listening to you.

There were 2 toddlers killed on the 8th October and 14 children under 10 - by your own logic they werent murdered as this conflict has been going on for decades.They were casualties of war.

Just because Israel says its at war doesnt justify Israel killing (murdering) 2100 children never mind 40,000 Palestinians.

Both sides are equally as scummy as the other - the only difference is Israel has the backing of the US so is free to bomb schools, hospitals, refugee camps with 2000 kg bombs without any repercussions - so called "precision strikes" - pull the other one - they know exactly what they are doing and who they are bombing.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512394#Comment_122512394

Yes . We would see the hypocrisy on full display from the apologists if a 2,000 pound bomb was dropped on a Tel Aviv suburb with the disclaimer that the target was a military facility; therefore there was no intent to kill civilians

I'm fully expecting some sort of ceasefire in place for US election time. When the election is over it could kick off again. Hopefully not.

PeggyShippen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512662#Comment_122512662

Bizarre Post really bizarre but emblematic of many in Ireland. No where in my logic can you garner succour for your 2nd paragraph. You know that.

A 2000lb bomb dropped on an apartment block containing a terrorist cell planning murder which results in the deaths of civilians including children isn't necessarily illegal nor murder in the 'Laws of War'. That's a fact.

Killing and raping defenceless civilians and kids by stabbing...shooting and burning. That my left wing friends is murder. Murder condoned by many in the general population in Gaza and the West Bank unfortunately . 80%. Id say if you took a poll in Dublin tomorrow.. there'dbe a fair percentage of educated people that would say 'Yes October 7th was justified '. That's what our media and education system has done to people.. turned them into left wing extremists..hostile to Judeo western culture yet living and benefiting from that amazing culture. Sad stuff.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512974#Comment_122512974

The IDF drop bombs on family homes to kill people they (using AI) have identified as Hamas members as they return home. They do this and wipe out any civilians in the building and surrounding houses

('Wheres daddy')

If Hamas blew up residential houses because an enlisted member of the IDF came home from work, that would be rightly described as terrorism

When the IRA blew up pubs full of civilians because there were some English military or RUC officers drinking in them, that was terrorism

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512974#Comment_122512974

Actually dropping a 2000lb bomb to kill one person is completely against the "Laws of war" which is what Israel is doing on a daily basis. If it wasnt against the "Laws of war" then there would be no talk of an arrest warrant being requested for the leaders of Israel - but then again Israel doesnt recognize the ICC which is another cop out.

Israel are just killing with impunity and they know they can get away with it. Disproportionate killing of civilians , committing genocide as long as this war goes on.

Ive been to Israel and Palestine and while you may assume that 80% of the population might think the 8th of October was justified Id be of the opinion that while it wasnt justified I can understand why it happened. Palestine is the biggest open air prison in the world - for example while we were there there was a couple of minor rocket attacks on Israel - the israelis turned off the water and power to Palestine for 2 weeks. This type of stuff is just breeding more Hamas and Hezbollah fighters. As will this war - Israel has stated that the reason for this war is to wipe out Hamas - Id argue that they are just going to increase its numbers and so the cycle goes on and on forever.

A two state solution is the only solution to the problems in the region.

Proportionality

It is prohibited to launch an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

PeggyShippen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122513110#Comment_122513110

That 'proportionality' paragraph is one I'd be personally familiar with. It's an area that can be difficult to interpret really . If a planner was in the last stages of planning an ambush then it could reasonably be argued that him, his family and house can be destroyed to prevent loss of life in his enemy. It's all alot more complicated than 'killing babies' in a bombing raid = murder. It doesn't.

Iv been to Israel and the West Bank many times. From Nablus to Eilat ...north to south...east to West. If people were dropping an 'occasional' rocket near my family I'd be advocating alot tougher action than the Israelis have. I'd say alot of Irish people would find that occasional rocket amd run to a bomb shelter an outrageous occurance.

A word on the ICC. It's a biased joke of an organisation. The UN is the same.. All these international organisations are packed up the rafters with lefties ,greens and worse. They are no use.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512205#Comment_122512205

Show me the where the bombings in Gaza had no intent to murder innocents? If you drop a 2,000 bomb on a densely populated area then it's definitely murder. Especially when those innocents are living in tents. No other word for it.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512205#Comment_122512205

war has no intent? I’ve heard it all

nacho libre

We have seen videos of civilians being murdered in cold blood while waving white flags. Also using Palestinians as shields is clear intent and a violation of the Geneva Convention. It's great to cite the Geneva convention when it suits our purposes but slate organisations that try to uphold these principles as a joke when it doesn't. You know who else views the ICJ as a joke and tends to disregard the Geneva convention when it suits? Vladimir Putin, that's who.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509255#Comment_122509255

Well there's disagreements over political issues, which I don't let impact relationships, but then there's real against humanity sort of stuff where you just cannot look past it.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122513436#Comment_122513436

https://www.thejournal.ie/gaza-ceasefire-deal-talks-6465444-Aug2024/

Its not murder - 15 people from the same family killed - definitely not murder.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122513051#Comment_122513051

And they allegedly identify, using this ai, people who might have been in a WhatsApp group with someone from Hamas, as a potential Hamas target. It's all rather flimsy

tayto lover

The entire world now knows exactly how Israel has behaved and they have lost all respect. They can no longer fool the world when playing the victim card. All credibility is lost. Israel is now probably the world's most hated nation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122513051#Comment_122513051

"The IDF drop bombs on family homes to kill people they (using AI) have identified as Hamas members as they return home. They do this and wipe out any civilians in the building and surrounding houses…"

Hamas militants do not go out to "work" much since 7 October. They "work" from home.

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122515404#Comment_122515404

What point do you think you are making with posts like that? I just saw a video of the IDF shooting a horse, what excuses would you make about that?

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122515404#Comment_122515404

And if this justification was used for the indiscriminate killing of Israelis you and the people thanking your post would be against it. Israeli civilian life is worth more, Palestinians are expendable it seems. This is why Israel's closest ally has repeatedly criticised Israel for not doing enough to minimise civilian deaths. It's likely the reason why the ICJ prosecutor is seeking warrants for war crimes. No doubt you have similar views to Peggy on the ICJ because it's Israel being held to account. Yet I bet you didn't view the ICC as worthy of derision for bringing war crime charges against Putin.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516003#Comment_122516003

The Horse was deemed to be a member of Hamas according to AI so its fine.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516066#Comment_122516066

But it was used by Hamas as justification for the indiscriminate killings on Oct 7th! See clip below from that horror Osama Hamdan. Any non military slaughtered on that day are "so-called civilians". All women,children, old people in the vicinity of a soldier or militant are "necessary sacrifices". Their own included. Sinwar trained them well.

https://x.com/Osint613/status/1786078828785246384

Hamdan doesn't like to be asked about "necessary sacrifices" either. But, hey, the Mods set out at beginning of this thread that we need to accept that others may hold views different to our own. Right?

https://x.com/jimsciutto/status/1824911792746725405

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122515404#Comment_122515404

Well for someone who puts so much effort into posting guff and regurgitating hasbara on this thread, how do you manage to not understand the difference between the distinction between the terms "Hamas member" and "Hamas militants"?

Hamas is/was the government of Gaza. It was the political and social infrastructure for the strip. All health, education, services etc. would have been ultimately under their authority. Any person who had any type of public sector job could have been technically categorised as a "Hamas member" simply because they got up in the morning and went to take care of sick people as a nurse in the local hospital. That same nurse, returning from the hospital tonight after another day of trying to comfort infant missile victims with amputated limbs would probably be categorised as a "Hamas worker" returning to her home.

You probably toe the line that every Palestinian, old or infant, male or female, deserves to die (possibly prolonged and painful) deaths because they are "all Hamas" by birth. You are deliberately trying to conflate issues and terms in order to complete "othering" as a means to justify genocide of people you are happy to see die just because of their ethnic/religious category.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516122#Comment_122516122

As has been pointed out to you Sinwar should be in the dock alongside Bibi. You seem to be essentially using the atrocities carried out on October 7th to excuse any Israelis crime there after. Yes we may have used Palestnians as human shields, but October 7th. We shot civilians in cold blood, but October 7th..

We raped detainees, but October 7th...

If Israel is a democracy that adheres to international law that's not how it works.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516187#Comment_122516187

This is a very good point actually, because it's essentially mirrors the thinking of Hamas when you analyse it. Dehumanise them first, so then you can justify your actions against them to yourself. That's how the Hamas operatives were able to do what they did on October 7th. It's why an IDF soilder can laugh about using a Palestinian as a human shield and how people can protest against a sexual abuser of a Palestinian detainee being held to account

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516122#Comment_122516122

Which just proves the point that the Israelis are terrorists just like the Hamas militants. Goose and Gander comes to mind - I expect those ICC warrants will end with convictions and severe penalties

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516314#Comment_122516314

Except the women and children sleeping in their beds in the kibbutzim were not shields for armed menfolk - indeed many were not armed. The people at the Nova festival were not armed.Not even the poor female guards who still languish in God only knows what circumstances in Gaza. In the kibbutzim and at the festival, there were some armed security who were not in anyway attacking Palestinians. In Gaza, attacks on soldiers continue, they continue to die, rockets continue, regrouping continues, some tunnels still exist, all of it from among women and children and old people who suffer the awful consequences. Israel has made crystal clear that following Oct 7, Hamas is to be wiped out. I understand how straightforward it all is and galling and deeply upsetting for those who believe that the State of Israel does not have the right to defend itself from a terrorist organisation with the clear intent to destroy it and backing from Iran on all fronts through Hezbollah and Houthi proxies. I am not one of those people. You are entitled to your own views.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516746#Comment_122516746

The actions of the Israelis morphed into terrorism when they decided to ignore international law and engage in actions of collective punishment of the Palestinians of Gaza and have since escalated their actions to ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. Israel is now a pariah state to anyone with a moral compass.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516746#Comment_122516746

Israel does have the right to defend itself - no arguments there. However it DOES NOT have the right to wipe out the Palestinian population to take out one Hamas member - can you not see the difference here?

Israel are carrying out a mass genocide of the Palestinian people just to "wipe out" hamas - its disproportionate and illegal.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122513143#Comment_122513143

A word on the ICC. It's a biased joke of an organisation. The UN is the same.. All these international organisations are packed up the rafters with lefties ,greens and worse. They are no use.

That comment alone really shows your true colours.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516746#Comment_122516746

"However it DOES NOT have the right to wipe out the Palestinian population to take out one Hamas member - can you not see the difference here?"

Nor is it doing that!

Thirty one militants were killed in the mosque/school recently. Civilians among whom the militants were sheltering/hiding died in the strike, though the numbers were hotly contested. Photograph of the militants and a list of their ranks in both Hamas and PIJ were published. The school was largely undamaged and still stands to the extent that it is still used as a shelter. On here I saw reference to it being destroyed and only one or two militants killed. Of course if you think Hamas always tells the truth and the State of Israel always lies, then I leave you to it.

nacho libre

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyvpm1049d9o

He obviously knows the review will be a whitewash. Once again self defense does not give you carte blanche to violate international law. Hamas and the IDF regularly tell lies. I wouldn't believe either one of them . The problem is Israeli human right groups and others have documented crimes by both sides over the years. In this comflict we've seen videos of people being shot dead in cold blood while waving white flags. We've seen videos of Palestinans being used as human shields, but it's ok, it's all legitimate because it's self defense. There is no obligation to obey the rules of war and international law once you cite self defense. Supporters of this doctrine would be cribbing if another state applied this to Israel. Look we may have killed scores of Israeli civilians while targeting that military facility in Tel Aviv but hey it was premptive self defense!

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122517272#Comment_122517272

Jesus you sound like that Smotrich bloke sounding like the civilians were an after thought.

If you are talking about the al- Tabin school - then its still wrong - there were over 100 people murdered in that strike - so Israel murdered another 70 people to kill 30 Hamas members??

Israel used three 2000 pound bombs to bomb a school knowing full well that it was sheltering civilians as well as Hamas militants yet they still bombed the school. Israel doesnt care who it bombs as long as they get the last Hamas member in Palestine.

Every single time theres one of these mass murders Israel disputes the numbers yet they will knowingly admit they knew civilians were sheltering there as well as Hamas members.

Under international law schools and hospitals are protected civilian objects and are therefore not allowed to be attacked regardless if the attacker assumes there is a threat there.

Once again Israel disregard humanitarian and international laws and do what Israel wants to do.

That will be their undoing as a state.

Wolf359f

I do love how Israel can claim the civilian death figures are inflated/made up etc…. but cannot actually supply a figure themselves.

They know a number of Hamas are in a building and they know and state a figure of how many they killed, but can't counterclaim the civilian figures themselves? That's assuming they even acknowledge civilian lives even matter. Sorry I forgot to mention, Palestinian civilian lives.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122517808#Comment_122517808

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122517808#Comment_122517808

Were the Hamas and PIJ militants bound and dragged into that school, then and now a shelter, screaming and begging not to bring them there because they are marked men and that the civilians, including friends and family, would be endangered by their presence?

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122518050#Comment_122518050

Im finding it hard to understand your posts.

But this one is either blaming Hamas for sheltering with civilians and that Hamas are responsible for the civilian deaths and not the big bomb from the sky??

Or youre making out that the civilians are responsible for their own deaths because they didnt throw the Hamas members out of the shelters they are in?

Either way the bombing of schools and hospitals is against humanitarian laws no matter what way you try to twist the narrative.

PeggyShippen

If there's militants planning and scheming or shooting from a school or hospital then they can be targeted in certain circumstances. It's not correct to say under no circumstances can they be hit. They can.

I suppose it brings us to the civilian support of Hamas. They are suffering terribly in Gaza. That's on Hamas as I have said. That there's still huge support for Hamas is sad really. People in the West recall the whooping and hollering on Oct 7th as the Islamists came back into Gaza with their war booty of dead bodies and raped teenagers....old ladies and the infirm. Red headed twin boys ect. The general population could have stayed indoors...yet they were out in party mode like it was the year 810AD all over again. It was a huge eye opener for me. For the left and especially the Irish left because they don't measure Hamas and the Israelis with the same measuring stick it was something to be ignored. The left have a warped view of Irelands own history ..ie. IRA terrorists = good freedom fighters ... and they superimpose this juvenile and wrong template onto Hamas...ie. Hamas terrorists= good freedom fighters.... Its as simple as that

"I have said this before, and I say it time again: The blood of the women, children, and elderly… I am not saying that this blood is calling for your [help]. We are the ones who need this blood, so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit, so it awakens within us resolve, so it awakens within us the spirit of challenge, and [pushes us] to move forward." Ismail Haniyih in an address on tv in Lebanon in late October '23 and broadcast widely in the Middle East.

Hamas, in reporting the death toll in Gaza does not distinguish between their militants and their own civilian dead. No difference.They are all referred to as "martyrs". A martyr is someone who sacrifices their life for a belief or a cause. The women, children and elderly fleeing horror and taking shelter where they can are being set up again and again by members of the Hamas death cult that needs their families' and friends' and neighbours' lives to be given up in order to further its cause. Sinwar's "necessary sacrifices". And the cause is the destruction of Israel. The Hamas Charter originally referred to wiping out "the Jews" but Haniyeh watered it down a bit to "Zionist project" aimed at making it more palatable in International Law and to anyone gullible enough to think its intent was any different. And now Hamas setting up women and children and the old and infirm to die by fighting from their midst and hiding among them and speak of their blood and lives as if they were theirs to use as fuel to the cause is seen by some as fine and dandy under international law!

And bearing in mind that Hamas clearly is following orders and weaponising the very bodies of its own people and attacking from and hiding themselves and their weapons in their midst, read up on the Geneva Convention and its protection of people who are not taking part in hostilities and schools and hospitals that are not being actively used by combatants.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122518562#Comment_122518562

"Support for Hamas was at all time low levels back in September and early October. It was only after 1000s were killed in an indiscriminate bombing campaign did support ttart to go up again…:

Those Israelis stirring the whole thing up for no reason at all, eh?

PeggyShippen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122517203#Comment_122517203

There's 40,000 dead out of 2.4million. It's the worst so called attempt at 'ethnic cleansing' in history.