Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226897#Comment_121226897

I understand what you're saying but the fact that you speak about any group being "wiped off the face of the earth " shows how little you understand about why people join militant or paramilitary groups. BTW this is not a criticism of you, you are in "good" company with a lot of government powers. The bottom line is if you treat people like **** and deny them equality there will be repercussions. And of course add in a dollop of religious nonsense and it gets even worse.

Tell me how

I most definitely don't know the truth of the claims about the killing of babies as has been reported.

But I do want to ask a question for those who are adamant it did happen.

Does it justify the killing of Palestinian babies if it did happen? And if so, how many, same numbers or what is the ratio?

Because it is a fact that Israel have killed thousands of Palestinian babies so why an outrage about this event (if it did happen) but not the other events?

In my view, the killing of babies (and children, and innocents, and civilians etc etc) is abhorrent and there should be outrage against such acts. But I've seen a lot of commentary about this story justifying Israels response but disregard for the Palestinian babies who have died, who will die.

Hummingbird Project

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226848#Comment_121226848

Russia cutting off water,food and gas is completely different and indeed the opposite to Israel doing it at this point.

In Ukraine fighters are on the front lines and not mixed in with civilians. No need to incentivise getting civilians out of Ukraine in that case.

Gaza is densely populated and fighters are mixed in with civilians therefore the need to incentivise getting the civilians out by cutting off essentials.

Moreover, cutting off food and electricity for two weeks max is nothing akin to cutting off gas for a whole winter and you know quite well. In Gaza, The timeframe is not designed for humanitarian casualties but to incentivise getting them out, in Ukraine it is.

Cutting off gas for a whole winter in the freezing Ukrainian winter would kill vast amounts of old people. Not the same with electricity in Gaza.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226831#Comment_121226831

Bought and paid for. Zero shame.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226847#Comment_121226847

You will believe anything. You said you believed Biden when he saw beheaded babies even though it has been clarified he didn’t.

You are still claiming Raz Cohen, the eye witness was a female off duty Israeli soldier for goodness sake.

AudreyHepburn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226942#Comment_121226942

With respect, please don’t talk down to me. I understand perfectly why someone could decide that joining a paramilitary group is their only choice. We’ve seen it happen for decades in this country.

I cannot and will not however accept that what Hamas having been and are continuing to do in Gaza and elsewhere is legitimate or right. Such atrocities should never be condoned no matter what the group involved thinks it’s fighting for.

Hamas and groups like them are terrorists pure and simple and they should be destroyed.

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226915#Comment_121226915

Your giving Biden too much credit, he regularly gets confused when speaking.

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226922#Comment_121226922

Go read their charter it's spelled out load and clear what their number one priority is.

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226942#Comment_121226942

It's so simple you have it all worked out.

TedBundysDriver

Biden knew what he was saying. Let's be honest it was a discipable thing to do in such a sensitive time.

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226947#Comment_121226947

You can't understand the difference in deliberately murdering babies in their beds, children been abducted to be stored in tunnels and be disposed of later to babies and children been killed in bombings targetting terrorists?

They are no different to you?

I think most right thinging people can see a big difference.

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226992#Comment_121226992

Oh all the horrible things that have happened that's what you are disgusted by, very weird.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226947#Comment_121226947

We’ve had pages and pages of “will someone not think of the children”.

OK it’s absolutely a valid concern- and innocent people also- on both sides I might add.

So do we as a nation outlaw war? Outlaw Retaliation? Outlaw Defence? Because some innocent people might die when doing so? Hardly practical is it?

It’s naive to think that a nation defending itself and using the playbook of war, won’t impact innocent lives- of course it will.

All we can do shorterm is monitor the situation - Israel are going in- we can’t change that fact but we can shout stop if we feel they’re not achieving their objectives of Hamas destruction and/or that it’s impacting too much on innocent lives .

How much is too much? Well there’s guidance for war laid down and then there’s personal morality - no one is going to be “happy” with innocent deaths- limiting those deaths tends to be the main objective in these circumstances so yes, I believe Israel should be heavily monitored in its actions - that’s the best that can be achieved right now- a bit of realism has to come into play here.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226958#Comment_121226958

I don't believe 'anything', I gave the grounds for believing what Biden said, but that has been clarified.

The horror of what has been done is horror enough.

You asked for evidence as to the claims of rape, it was given from eye witness testimony, which of course, you predictably try to discredit with disinformation.

Unlike you, who gives no such clarity about what evidence you would accept or how it could be established to your satisfaction realistically given the nature of the attacks, the hostage taking etc. At any time, you could look for these videos in the dregs of the internet, they were in circulation on Saturday - if you want to find out for yourself.

And there are posts on this thread from people who viewed it who state it contained scenes of mutilation of children.

I believe Hamas are more than capable of the acts described.

What exactly is so unbelievable to you about claims that rapes occurred, that any claim to it must be automatically discredited by you without any apparent serious consideration given that they are true?

They executed civilians en masse, they executed families en masse. They paraded brutalised victims.

Deliberate acts of terror and brutality.

You said you condemned Hamas attacks - which you described as 'horrific' or 'barbaric' - did you not?

So what exactly were you condemning? And on what grounds of evidence do you do so?

Or was that a sham too?

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226997#Comment_121226997

Where did I say I wasn't disgusted by other things? Interesting the deflection from yourself yet again though.

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227007#Comment_121227007

What am I deflecting?

Is it some moral victory for Hamas that we don't have proof they beheaded children?

Is that a victory for you?

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226922#Comment_121226922

More than 100 years of continuous murder and every peace process failed until we reached today's stage which is arguably the worst it ever was. There will never be peace there, the arabs will never accept Jews on that land, no matter what they will be given they will still find reasons to kill them. And no the Jews are not innocent either but between them and the Palestinians they are the better people.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225805#Comment_121225805

Nonsense, the post in question...

The fact that Israel has been illegally stealing and occupying land they don't belong on and treating their neighbours to decades of appalling and atrocious behaviour doesn't count of course.

HAMAS' activities last weekend, no matter how egregious, didn't occur in a vacuum.

has nothing in it to apologise for. It's simply a statement of fact and nowhere in it is there an "extremely crass" or "insensitive" description of what HAMAS did.

Perhaps it would help for you to look up the word "egregious".

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226993#Comment_121226993

Obviously, there's a difference, but not one that abdicates entirely the perpetrators of the other method of killing which is what you and others are doing.

I think both acts are barbaric.

I think it is a cop out to say 'targeting terrorists' knowing the collateral damage that always happens.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226979#Comment_121226979

You should have a lie down after that post, I'm sure it took a lot out of you.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226999#Comment_121226999

Israel is already breaching the Geneva convention and noted world leaders including the head of the EU and the US have offered them support in their actions.

So, I'm not holding out much hope in the 'monitoring of their actions' that you are suggesting.

Former Israeli Prime Ministers and military officials have come out both blaming Nethanyahu and his government for escalating hostilities that led to last weeks attack and for the actions they are now taking.

It's very annoying to see the outrage of Hamas' attacks and the complete acceptance of Israel's response currently, and provocations previously. Not saying you specifically are doing this, I've just seen a lot of it.

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226523#Comment_121226523

still no evidence of babies being beheaded. Benjy appears to have rowed-back on the allegations in his latest statement.

so we are to believe unconfirmed sources in the IDF, the same people who are now besieging and bombing women & children in what can only be described as medievel war crimes.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227018#Comment_121227018

The Arabs accepted Jews on that land for centuries. Which completely disproves your assertion.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227043#Comment_121227043

Or believe Hamas who claim the music festival was full of Israeli soldiers?

Outside of the fanatical Israel = evil posters its clear which is more trust worthy.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227043#Comment_121227043

Hamas executed entire families. They executed civilians just for attending a festival. They mutilated and raped. They paraded victims. They are terrorists.

Was that a lie?

Or are you trying to discredit that too?

To root out the death cults in Germany and Japan, women and children died too in bombings. It is Hamas who have triggered this sequence of events, and those who die in rooting out their death cult are victims of Hamas too.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227011#Comment_121227011

I haven't spent much time on the thread over the last few days, but it feels like every time I've dropped in, you've been using this event to justify Israels response that will kill thousands, and impact millions.

That it might have been misreported/exaggerated/made up should prompt you to have a think about how eager you were to advocate for pain and suffering to be inflicted on people.

Whatever the extreme of the attack last week, there's no question that it was barbaric and horrific. But it is not solely Hamas who are capable of such acts and Hamas are not the entirety of the Palestinian people.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227025#Comment_121227025

If you’re happy for Hamas to bomb Israel and other nations indeed, knowing they won’t retaliate because they have their hands tied after adopting your “innocent people might die” stance, then great- get ready to embrace your own death soon.

Me, I’m kindof comforted that there are nations out there equipped and prepared to fight these predatory terrorist organisations who believe in fck all other than lining their own pockets and watching events from their safe haven countries, for the ideals that I believe in, namely freedom of speech, democracy and human rights.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226831#Comment_121226831

practised as a barrister specialising in human rights law from 1985 to 2005

That's some answer for someone who is well-versed in human rights law, assuming Wikipedia can be trusted!

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227025#Comment_121227025

Telling people to leave before the bombing starts is just as barbaric as what Hamas did?

I already know the answer to this because I've read your posts for years but you see no moral difference between Hamas and the Israelis?

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227061#Comment_121227061

i never said i did not believe the people in the music festivel were not murdered. they were, and in the most brutal manner. please don't try to put words into my mouth. i condemned those killings the moment evidence of those atrocities became available.

i do NOT believe the beheaded babies story, as it is just heresay. no evidence. i do NOT believe the IDF. the British army murdered innocent people (including children) in NI, and immediately told lies/made up stories to justify their actions. we know this now. this happens in war. grow up!

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227026#Comment_121227026

No I appreciate you sharing your wisdom to all of us pointing out all the mistakes we're making about the conflict.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227018#Comment_121227018

That sounds a lot like what colonists used to claim to justify their colonisation and land grabs. The English settlers were better, more civilised than the native Irish, the native Americans were savages. Certainly I would prefer to live in an Israeli society than a Muslim Palestinian one but when you start discriminating in a land disputes based on your perceived superiority of one culture you are mimicking some of the worst events in history.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227040#Comment_121227040

The world has got a whole lot more complex over the last 20 years- regimes that kill certain groups of innocent people purely because of their nationality or religion or ethnicity have exploded throughout the world.

I believe that we have to re-evaluate what is acceptable response now to these regimes because our current and past laws on this are out of date. How do you deal with organisations who advocate the death and destruction of whole nations and peoples?

It’s not as simple as “will someone think of the children” .

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226860#Comment_121226860

Are there any democratic Arab countries?

Lebanon might the closest and it's a basket case.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227071#Comment_121227071

If it was acceptable for those with superior force to annahialte entire neighbourhoods because of a few rats running through the streets, how would you feel if the UK had acted in this way to Derry and other Northern Ireland towns throughout the troubles?

With the military might, budget and support that Israel has, if they cannot target Hamas without harming so many innocent Palestinians, they really should have a stop and think about what it is they are doing. Well, they know what they are doing and they know there's enough people like you who will give them a pass on that.

Gatling

No fuel, electricity, water until the hostages are released,

This could end pretty quickly if they hand over all of the hostages,

Let's see if Hamas are really for the Palestinian people

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-war-latest-hamas-palestine-sky-news-live-blog-12978800?postid=6568448#liveblog-body

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227086#Comment_121227086

I'm not putting words in your mouth. It is entirely reasonable to ask why you accept those accounts.

And if you accept Hamas are capable of these atrocities, why this would be beyond the pale for them.

So you accept Hamas are capable of horrific acts.

Gunning down civilians in cold blood, with no apparent regard to age or gender or threat.

It is a serious and realistic possibility that they mutilated those civilians, including children and infants perhaps.

It is a serious and realistic possibility that they abused and raped those civilians, and paraded those victims.

That is a "grown up" view of what Hamas are capable of.

Reserving judgement about the events pending evidence is one thing, but immediately trying to discredit the claims as propaganda as some have done is a different matter entirely.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227098#Comment_121227098

How do you expect Israel to lure Hamas from behind their human shieds?

Israel has no fcukin choice when Hamas make sure to base themselves in heavily populated areas/protected zones?

Its either leave Hamas unpunished or bomb them.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226872#Comment_121226872

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226876#Comment_121226876

Well, well, it has been confirmed that Joe Biden was not in a position to confirm this, as the White House has stated that he hasn't actually seen photos of people beheading Israeli babies.

Joe Biden has lied to the world on this matter. From now on, nothing Joe Biden says can be taken at face value.

He may believe it to be true, but it seems that he has no more evidence at this disposal than I do.

So could you please stop spreading disinformation, fake news. Actual news is fine, but it's only news when it can be confirmed and contrasted - otherwise, in an age when everyone has a camera on their phone, it is at best opinion.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227101#Comment_121227101

War crime. Simple as that. Will the Israelis starve a million children to death until a terrorist organisation complies?

Imagine the British army doing similar in the Bogside or Black and Tans in Cork. They will turn world opinion against them completely.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227091#Comment_121227091

How do you deal with organisations who advocate the death and destruction of whole nations and peoples?

You target the message and show that that nation wants to co-exist. You dont' continually steal their land and property and effectively hold them under their siege.

Given Israels behavior, are Hamas not freedom fighters in the loosest definition of the term? Again, please don't misunderstand this as support for Hamas's actions, but rather acknowledgement of Israels.

Because, with respect to the part of your post I've repeated above, is that not what many in support of Israels action are effectively saying of Gaza?

So you have two groups saying the same thing, but one is probably the best supplied military on a per population basis, the other is a splinter group by comparison.

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227098#Comment_121227098

So how should the IDF remove Hamas from Gaza are you a military expert who can see a better way?

Should the IDF go door to door looking for Hamas?

Maybe if it's impossible to destroy Hamas without killing innocent Palestinians Israel should just forget about removing Hamas.

Just improve their defense's and try stop any further attacks.

Would that be your advice?

Long Sean Silver

Benji and his fascist coalition buddies think the indiscriminate bombing of women & children is going to make Israel more secure, and bring lasting peace to the region.

if this wasn't so awful & tragic, i could laugh. the IDF are now creating the next generation of HAMAS, ISIS or whatever form that may take.

we'll all be back here again in a few short years, and the same poster no doubt will be asking, "how could those Palestinians be so brutal?" "how could they do this?" and the usual suspects will say "i know what will sort this! let's bomb the crap outta them. that'll teach em!"

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227098#Comment_121227098

Comparisons to NI are flawed on so many levels I’m not going down that rabbit hole.

I already said I’m not giving Israel carte Blanche- the best worst outcome right now is monitoring by the international community - I can still “not like” what’s happening but a bit of realism here has to come into play- you’re talking a very idealistic world- I wish it was that way but it’s not

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226879#Comment_121226879

It is shades of the Warsaw Ghetto. Every time Israel acts in this way they remind me more and more of 1930s-1940s Germany.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227105#Comment_121227105

The attacks at the weekend have been covered by international media and verified repeatedly.

The story about the babies as far as I can see has come from the IDF and hasn’t been independently verified.

It could absolutely be true, but spreading this sort of horrific information about an enemy to help justify actions to the wider world has been used in war before.

Its not crazy or dismissive to ask that something as abhorrent as that story have some sort of verification.

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227119#Comment_121227119

Do you think the best thing to do would be to just remove the Jewish nation from the middle east?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227101#Comment_121227101

They’d be mad not to

Burty330

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227048#Comment_121227048

Give Gaza their independence they say. Well that's exactly what Israel did when they withdrew all the Israelis' , Israeli settlements and forces in 2005. Shortly after Hamas declared Gaza a terrorist state and have been attacking Israel ever since - suicide bombings ,rockets , terror tunnels .. Clearly Gaza didn't take this gesture of peacekeeping and build upon it.

In another act of peacekeeping , Israeli's were barred from praying at Temple Mount as they were clashing with the Arabs who went to pray at al -aqsa mosque. That's why you see them all congregating at the wall outside. Now consider Temple Mount is Mecca to the Jews. That's pretty big concession to give in order to keep peace. How many concessions have Palestinians made over the last 90 years ?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227113#Comment_121227113

He didn't lie. He mis-spoke.

As for camera phone - the implication is that you want to people to have captured the evidence to send to you?

Who do you think on the Israeli side is going to share those with you?

There's posts on the thread, describing the footage seen online during the attacks shared by the terrorists, and they describe children being mutilated.

If you want to confirm it for yourself, you can look on the dregs of the internet, as any responsible social media site has blocked footage of the horrific attacks.

Hamas executed civilians at a festival, they executed entire families. That is not in dispute.

The full extent of the horrors of those deaths is sensitive and still being established. Did it extend to rape? Mutilation? There is no disinformation.