Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227079#Comment_121227079

There is some moral difference because of the warnings Israel gives.

But that is a very small point in the larger context of the tension and actions that exist in the region.

The deaths are vastly greater on the side of the Palestinians, and they are the people held under siege in Gaza. Israel knows the outcomes of its actions as surely as Hamas knows the outcome of theirs.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226915#Comment_121226915

Why are you lieing???

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227134#Comment_121227134

They're taking their orders from Allah.

We shouldn't assign them Western rationality.

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227133#Comment_121227133

OMG. the level of discussion really has nose-dived.

Long Sean Silver

in a vain attempt to raise the level of discussion i would ask certain posters to look at this. you never know you might learn something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uar3I_LUSyM

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227130#Comment_121227130

It's not dismissive or crazy to reserve judgment pending more verification.

But it is when the claims are immediately dismissed as atrocity propaganda.

At this stage all I'm asking is for it to be considered a "serious and realistic possibility" based on what we know of the agenda of HAMAS and what has been verified of the horrific attacks thus far.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227141#Comment_121227141

You are not serious?

What concessions have Palestinians made? Eh, their land.

I would recommend Robert Fisk’s Great War for Civilization if you are interested in informing your opinion.

Also maybe read a little about Jewish religious law about praying at the Temple Mount.

Could you point out Hamas’ declaration of Gaza as a terrorist state or did you make that up?

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227133#Comment_121227133

The establishment of a Palestinian state in something close to the 1948 borders, with Fatah being backed politically and financially, Hamas targeted, with the goal of elimination, and West Bank settlers incentivised to move would be best

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227124#Comment_121227124

I'm not comaring NI with this conflict so no need to ignore the point on that basis.

The post I was responding to suggested it was appropriate for countries experience uprisings to react with brute force as we are seeing here.

Ignoring the comparison of NI to Isreal/Palestine, as it wasn't made, that question was valid.

I'm not talking idealistic, I'm talking about recognizing the right of the Palestinians and the ignorance of Israel and that right and what this has meant for the region up to an including the acts of last weekend.

I'm not justifying those acts, I'm saying that Israel cannot be absolved from what their role has been even if for no other reason than to hold them accountable for those acts in the same way people expect Hamas to be held accountable for theirs.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227151#Comment_121227151

What is a lie?

Did Joe Biden see images of decapitated Israeli babies or didn’t he?

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227174#Comment_121227174

Jeez, you have rained your horns in from your position of emphatic certainty to maybe just consider it a possibility it could have happened.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227059#Comment_121227059

Well while I wouldn't personally put forward that argument as being relevant or justifying anything that was done, it would have a basis in fact given that all Israeli's must do compulsory military service, after which they officially remain in the reserves.

i.e. from a pure logical point of view, there are highly likely some of the 300k that have been activated this week who might just have easily been at that festival - were it not that something came up to prevent them from attending it.

Again, I am not justifying anything. They should not have been attacked. Only pointing out logic that might be in their minds.

AudreyHepburn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227113#Comment_121227113

Well well…no he didn’t lie, he misspoke. There is a difference.

It is true to say we don’t yet know the full extent of Hamas’s war crimes as yet given that they are still be uncovered and investigated.

But to say they didn’t happen at all is at best woefully naive and at worst an attempt to play them down and show support for a terrorist organisation.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227143#Comment_121227143

Yes, Hamas executed civilians and the IDF executed POWs.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227088#Comment_121227088

It is what it is, it is not good and I'm not justifying evil, I'm just saying what would be the lesser evil, and the arabs living in Israel know which one it is.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227071#Comment_121227071

Isn't it true though that the overwhelming majority of people killed in the conflict historically have been Palestinians? I was looking at a report on the disparity of casualties (albeit dated 2014 but I imagine the proportions haven't changed much). From 2005 until that point, 4,006 people were killed in the conflict — comprising 168 Israelis and a frankly staggering 3,838 Palestinians.

Again, I just struggle to understand the thinking and rationale that underpins the way people seem to confidently choose sides in this debate. Hamas are fundamentalist religious fanatics who would gleefully commit the same level of barbarity as last weekend a thousand times over if they had the chance. The Palestinians do have an eminently just grievance against Israeli domination, oppression and aggression — not least based on the nature of their conditions and the fact that they have died in far greater number. Israel has legitimate concerns about its defence and cannot be expected to just entirely roll over and let its people be slaughtered and Israel exists now whether people like that or not — it can't just be expected to disappear. Hatred of Israel runs further than a simple territorial dispute or "freedom fight" in the eyes of many in the Arab world and beyond — there is a religious and Jew-hating fanaticism in there too.

All these things can be true at once. The barbarities committed by both sides go far beyond what can always be called a romantic freedom fight or a reluctant obligation to self-defence. There isn't going to be Palestinian freedom or Israeli security until people can make the ideological sacrifices necessary for either thing to exist.

supermans ghost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227024#Comment_121227024

It’s safe to say you are no speech writer or academic, in my book describing what Hamas did at the weekend as “activities” is an incredibly poor choice of words, makes it sound like they were at a picnic, however I get the impression that to quote the cranberries “in your head” you are never wrong. C’est la vie.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227116#Comment_121227116

I guess even the word “terrorist” these days is a loaded term. One groups terrorist is another groups “freedom fighter” - even that term “freedom fighter” is loaded and misused.

In terms of Hamas specifically no sorry, I definitely don’t believe they’re “freedom fighters”- they’re mass manipulators would be my best description - but as we’ve seen many times , what a groups stated aims are Vs what they actual do or end up doing to their own people (ISIS for example) can be poles apart.

Have Israel done wrong? Sure. Are Hamas freedom fighters? No, I disagree strongly on that description- the western world has been fooled too many times with those descriptions and rhetoric; western countries seem to irradiate “terrorist” organisations one day and “free” a country , only for another worse regime to take over a few years later. I think we need an international agreement around what is a terrorist regime vs what is a legitimate and recognised resistance organisation fighting an illegitimate and destructive and controlling force.

But I don’t think I’ll be holding my breath on getting that agreement 😀

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227209#Comment_121227209

Is it equally wrong to invent or exaggerate atrocities as it is, as you say to downplay them?

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227174#Comment_121227174

It is only right that people are cautious about such accusations. This kind of dead baby propaganda has been doing the rounds since WWI, when the British accused the Germans of sticking Belgian babies onto the ends of their bayonets. Of course, that turned out to be nonsense. But by time it was revealed to be so, that bit of "information" had done its rounds and was integral in rousing certain anti German sentiment.

This story of HAMAS beheading babies may well turn out to be true. But until it has been verified beyond a shadow of a doubt, people are correct to remain sceptical.

Besides, there's plenty of other atrocious behaviour that can be levelled at HAMAS.

TedBundysDriver

You can learn a lot about a person that supports war crimes like the Israelis are now committing.

AudreyHepburn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227235#Comment_121227235

Of course. I don’t believe I have ever once said otherwise.

Thats not what Biden did though. He simply misspoke.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227194#Comment_121227194

He said he did .

You said no he didn't.

Your lieing

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227209#Comment_121227209

He didn't misspeak, he lied plain and simple .

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227079#Comment_121227079

Sure I heard that some of the camp guards shouted in and advised the inmates to leave the gas chambers before they pumped in the zyklon-B back in the day. And yet you will still find people saying they might not have been nice fellas.

Using "we told them they could leave" as an excuse, when you know they can't leave, is nonsense.

Tell me how

Former advisor to Israeli PM saying that Israel's targeting of terrorists through bombing civilian compounds is misguided and doomed to failure.

https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1712138196975341846?t=6vmztiRFhhSNDvmSjXf7bQ&s=03

AudreyHepburn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227246#Comment_121227246

If that’s what you want to believe fine. That’s your choice.

I disagree.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227227#Comment_121227227

"Activities" means something that someone or some group has done or is doing. It's perfectly fine English. When coupled with the word "egregious", it's easy to see what type of activity is meant.

We have one poster losing their crap over a word and another throwing out the anti-Semite slur and all over a relatively innocuous post, especially when it's compared with some of the stuff that's been posted.

The state of this thread.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227257#Comment_121227257

But he offerers no solutions to dealing with the a massive terrorist attack by hamas ,

How does he think he would take on Hamas?

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227246#Comment_121227246

How do you know he's always mis speaking?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227234#Comment_121227234

Such stories are simply used to dehumanize people. I don't think the Israeli's consider the Palestinians as people anyway, but that propaganda will then sway others over and get their temporary backing for long enough for the Israelis to kill tens of thousands of the Palestinians.

AudreyHepburn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227239#Comment_121227239

A genuine question for you and others who think Israel should not respond by military means to Hamas;

What do you do think they should be doing instead? What else can they actually do?

I have yet to see anyone suggest any reasonable alternative.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227244#Comment_121227244

The White House has already retracted what he said.

Who is lieing (sic).

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227179#Comment_121227179

That is a complete non runner after last weekend.

In an ideal world yes but in practical terms it would not work, nor would the Palestinians be interested in it and no one in Israel will allow it now and that's just from the ones who campaigned for it in the past

Boggles

Committing genocide on the Palestine's is a recruiting drive for Hamas and beyond.

It won't make Israel safer.

Whilst the West supports it, it makes things far more trickier in Ukraine.

A win for Putin, who is offering himself as peace mediator.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227257#Comment_121227257

He's absolutely spot on there.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227257#Comment_121227257

If he posted the answer he gave there on this thread he'd be labelled an antisemitic Hamas supporting fanatic

supermans ghost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227261#Comment_121227261

Well at least you calmed down a bit, btw do you consider your own posts to be a contributor to the “state of this thread” or is that beneath you.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227276#Comment_121227276

It's difficult to know exactly what Israel should do here and I don't think any rational people have a true, workable, answer. Fighting a small force of non uniformed combatants isn't an easy task. The Germans faced that problem in WWII and the Americans had similar issues in Vietnam. But levelling entire residential areas and massacring thousands of innocent civilians in an region that you already subjected to appalling conditions isn't going to advance Israel's stated claim of "targeting HAMAS". Nor will it make it any safer.

More than likely, it's just going to breed the next generation of revenge filled extremists.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227299#Comment_121227299

I have been perfectly calm throughout.

I'm not the one losing their crap over a word, nor am I throwing out accusations of "anti-Semitism" either.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227257#Comment_121227257

I think 73 year old Netanyahu at this stage is acting emotionally knowing his legacy is destroyed. It's become a personal vendetta of pure hatred and the defence minister is only too happy to appease him.

You cannot in anyway defend cutting off of food, medical supplies and water in an area where innocent people are suffering.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227285#Comment_121227285

In practical terms, this is never going to go away in the absence of a Palestinian state and the backing of more moderate voices in Palestine to the detriment of Hamas.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227187#Comment_121227187

Well surprising as it may seem I’m pretty much with you in that all countries should be held to account for actions- Israel included.

I don’t believe the ideals of Hamas and the ideals and aspirations of Palestine are the same though. But years of fighting and atrocities on both sides have left it extremely difficult to now determine what exactly either sides want and what exactly they are fighting for. It would be great to reset and start again - I just don’t see that happening - so many other factors and aspects have occurred that have blurred the lines of what each side deams as an acceptable outcome- when your dealing with stated positions of death to all ……I mean where do you start with peace negotiations ?

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227105#Comment_121227105

again you are trying to put words in my mouth.

i never said they did not happen, just that as yet there is no evidence. so i will await verification before i swallow it. sorry if this disappoints you.

you said there is a "POSSIBILITY" (your words btw). indeed there is. there is a possibility they said a Novena or 2. but i doubt it.

anyone with any knowledge of war and conflict situations know the truth is the first thing to take a bullet. the Russians are doing it in Ukraine, the British (and the Provos) in NI, the US (before and during the illegal invasion of Iraq), Al Qaeda, ISIS, HAMAS, the Nazis, Franco, Cromwell. take your pick.

They ALL DO IT.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227281#Comment_121227281

No the white house hasn't, not in its press briefing, website, social media accounts,

Apparently unnamed sources told fox news ,,,,, and jumped on by Pro Hamas accounts.

RoyalCelt

Hamas released a video on how they made a lot of missile's. Part of the process involved digging up underground water pipes to use as the cannisters. Have they got zero PR sense?

The water projects are founded by aid usually From places like the EU and the same week they complain the funds have been suspended they show how that aid helps develop their weapons.

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227276#Comment_121227276

A genuine answer is i haven't got a clue but killing innocents just because you are angry isn't the answer and never will be. In fact it has the complete opposite effect on your goals. The Israeli's are too stupid to see that.

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227257#Comment_121227257

This guy get's it.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227101#Comment_121227101

Don't think I've ever seen a more naive post tbh.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227352#Comment_121227352

I'm sure there must be some other explanation, maybe they were building water delivery drones....

Or something ludicrous to defend hamas