Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227119#Comment_121227119

I think it is more complex than that, and also in a way much more simple.

Palestine now has a majority who are not Jewish (I use a capital letter as here I am accepting them as an ethnic group; I use lower case for all religions). Young, well-educated Jews of European origin are leaving in droves - you'll find them all over Europe, doubtless all over the US too. This imperils the whole Zionist project, which began with massive immigration by European Jews, continued with mass expulsions of Palestinians, and then mass immigration of Jews from Muslim lands. For a time there was a Jewish majority in Palestine as a whole (including the West Bank and Gaza).

The high Palestinian birthrate and the lack of interest in the remaining Jews around the world (many of whom support Israel but don't want to live there) means that Palestinians now are equal in number if not superior in number to Jews, and that population continues to grow at a faster rate than the Jewish population.

Now the "simple" bit: The attack by Hamas provides the Yahoo with a heaven-sent excuse to carry out the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, removing two million Palestinians from Palestine and thus restoring a favourable balance of numbers for the Zionist project. I expect him to make every effort to do so, although unless Egypt is willing to accept them (unlikely, IMO) the only other possibility is to drive them into the sea.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227276#Comment_121227276

They could start by calling a halt to their expansion in the West Bank. Start reigning in the settlers. Stop undermining the PA constantly (and push them to deal with their corruption issues) and show the people in Gaza that cooperation with Israel is not just going to lead to more ethnic cleansing. That there is an alternative to resistance and Hamas

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227221#Comment_121227221

Can’t say I disagree with anything there- I’ve pretty much just said similar in my last post. The one thing that prolonged conflict in NI has taught me is that the original “Stated aims” , no matter how noble, Vs the actual reality years later, can be poles apart - “freedom fighters” organisations can morph into the most desperate shower of mass manipulators of the people it’s claiming to “save”- the IRA was one organisation, lining its pockets from the misery of others -Hamas is also one such organisation. Power over people, regardless of who those people are, seems to be the common denominator.

Im not ideologically aligned to Israel btw- however in their current action, I’m giving limited support - and for a limited time only. I hope that international pressure would bare on both sides to finally make peace but I just don’t see that happening

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227276#Comment_121227276

First off, I've personally never said that Israel shouldn't respond with military means. This is a conflict, there is going to be some of that. What I have an issue with it is the proportion and the clear destruction of infrastructure that will impact 1000 civilians for every one terrorist. That and Israel's role on a broader level.

But to respond to the events of last week in the short term

• Use the vast intelligence resources to target the individuals involved or to identify training or weapons storage locations and target them in an isolated manner either through air attack, or limited but focused ground incursions.
• Use Mossad to target the ring leaders of the attacks
• Use the US and or the EU to help develop and enforce sanctions for the support of Hamas

Long term

• Relax their blockade of the Gaza Strip
• Pull back from settlements that are acknowledged as being illegal.
• Show that they are committed to finding a two state solution.
• Show the Palestinian people that Hamas are not in their best interests.

Hummingbird Project

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227308#Comment_121227308

Or results in power hungry nationalists that want to become martyrs. Some people in Ireland glorify that kind of thinking all the way to the top of our political leaders. It’s the type of thinking Bin Laden and AlQaeda used.

It’s a depraved form of aetheism putting more stock in land and revenge than God. It’s depravity based on a will to gain land.

Once a person crosses that line it’s very hard for them to come back and it results in you turning against the world as it most people don’t hold that energy. It breeds the most basic conditions and results in bad outcomes. It’s power hungry extremism.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227141#Comment_121227141

That's some independence when a ship that tried to dock there was attacked by Israeli soldiers, with many on it being murdered.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227321#Comment_121227321

The moderate voices aren't that moderate.

Ideally a 2 state solution would be the answer but you can't have 2 cultures so far apart in values beside each other.

The idea that Palestinians would ever tolerate a Jewish neighbour state, one where homosexuality is not a big deal. Women have choice and control over their lives. It's a complete rejection of everything they believe and then add in the issue of where they thing the Palestinian state should be.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227352#Comment_121227352

Your first mistake is to assume that Hamas want to do anything other than increase the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Their goal is to stoke a response that increases the human catastrophe within Gaza with the aim of using that for propaganda purposes. That so many seem so willing to give them just that is grist to to the mill for them

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227346#Comment_121227346

Is The Times of Israel a pro Hamas account?

You accused me of lying. I didn’t

You claimed Shani Louk was raped. Was that truthful?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/white-house-biden-has-not-seen-or-independently-confirmed-hamas-beheaded-israeli-children/

TedBundysDriver

Gaza hospitals overwhelmed by casualties and sheltering families

Rushdi Abu Alouf

BBC News, Gaza City

"I passed by a hospital in Gaza this morning. There was a long queue of ambulances waiting to deliver casualties to the emergency room.The Palestinian Ministry of Health says 5,339 people have been injured since Saturday. Hospitals are overwhelmed, appealing for people to donate blood, and are running out of essential medical equipment and fuel.

Israel cut the electricity on Saturday - and the only power station here has stopped due to the fuel shortages.I went to another hospital yesterday to speak to a doctor. I was surprised by the number of displaced people using the hospital as a shelter. In every corner, you can find a family sleeping on the ground. They believe the hospital is safe"

How can any right minded person call Israel anything but a terrorist state?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227143#Comment_121227143

Mis-spoke, what a joke.

The rest of us recognise a lie when we see one.

As for photographing a crime scene, yes, that is absolutely normal in today's world, and the evidence is presented in court.

If you want to use the court of public opinion, the same level of evidence will be requested.

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227210#Comment_121227210

the IDF execute/murder civilians also.

those poster/people/politicians who seem to have an obsession with giving Israel a green light to commit atrocities, human rights abuses, and war crimes need to take a long hard look at themselves.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227160#Comment_121227160

And your lot from Yaweh; or is it from Herzl?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227239#Comment_121227239

What Israel is doing is horribly wrong, I agree with you on that. However, the phrase "war crimes" is completely overused in this context. Here is the reference from the UN:

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

1. Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives

I have bolded the relevant piece for you. If Hamas are hiding their fighters, their equipment and their rockets in schools and hospitals, then while it is horribly wrong to bomb those places, it isn't a war crime, because of the actions of Hamas. The actual test of whether Israel is committing war crimes comes down to the level of cynicism of Hamas towards their own population. By placing terrorists and equipment inside hospitals (which has been alleged but not yet proven), Hamas would be reducing potential war crimes by Israel down to the level of acts of war.

Where you may have some better arguments would be in relation to this one:

Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions

However, the argument that Israel would use would be that there is another border with Egypt through which trade with Gaza can take place, and that Israel's actions in closing its border and cutting links are necessary steps in self-defence which are protected and that Gaza should use the alternate border to supply its civilians. Remember war crimes is a legal rather than a moral conclusion, and that defence would have to be considered by the International Criminal Court. So, what Israel is doing is horribly wrong, morally obscene and a complete overreaction but it may not meet the definition of a war crime.

However, what can be said without doubt, is that Hamas has committed multiple war crimes in the last week, from the taking of hostages to violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture. Rape is another war crime committed by Hamas in the last week. Ironically, if Hamas had stopped at the border posts it overwhelmed and destroyed and then retreated back to Gaza, it would have been only committing acts of war. The actions it took against the music festival, against the kibbutzs and against families living in their own homes were actions that go way beyond acts of war and well into the theatre of war crimes. They are among the worst war crimes we have seen in recent years.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227368#Comment_121227368

Fair play for posting your views- thanks, whether I agree or not doesn’t matter - it’s great to see more of these posts as opposed to “will someone please think of the children” type responses.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227385#Comment_121227385

This was pointed out to boyd Barrett yesterday by Leo varadkar in the Dail yesterday

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227244#Comment_121227244

half the time poor old Joe doesn't even know which country or which state he's in.

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227400#Comment_121227400

The fact is Biden may be proven right and maybe those heinous crimes happened but at the time of speaking he knew what he said wasn't truthful and made up the story anyway. This isn't the first time Joe has made stuff up and been caught it must be a nightmare for this staff to keep having to clean up his mess. It's no wonder they shuffle him off stage quicker than Usain Bolt can run the 100 metres before journalists get a chance to ask pertinent questions.

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227394#Comment_121227394

how can any person with half a brain think this is gonna make Israel more secure/less insecure?

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227392#Comment_121227392

You saw the video of Shani Louk on the back of the van, broken and being spat on, right?

Could you not conclude from that video that a woman, stripped almost naked, unconscious, surrounded by men in a highly charged scenario could have been sexually assaulted?

Or are you another person who seems to need video proof before they believe anything? (And I'm sure if you did have video proof you'd probably conclude it was a deepfake or some other such shite)

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227244#Comment_121227244

He said he did, the White House said he hadn't. The US is lying, which specific part ...

A White House spokesperson later clarified that U.S. officials and the president have not seen pictures or confirmed such reports independently. The president based his comments on the claims from Netanyahu's spokesman and media reports from Israel according to the White House.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227448#Comment_121227448

Of course I conclude this could have happened. The poster insisted it did happen.

There are images of dozens of Hamas fighters lying on the ground, naked and bound, surrounded by Israeli soldiers being humiliated

Due you believe all of those were raped by the Israeli soldiers?

If I insisted these Hamas fighters were raped would you automatically believe it?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227400#Comment_121227400

You want to see videos and photographs of atrocities such as rapes and the mutilated bodies before you are convinced?

You know you're not going to get that from any reputable source given the sensitive nature of such atrocities. And the court of public opinion is well aware of that, and would not seek the publication of such evidence which would be atrocity propaganda for the terrorists and sadists.

Which is why such information cannot be shared on responsible media - and you well know there is a warning on this thread about same.

But if that's what you need to be convinced, you can look for it yourself in the dregs of the internet. That's on you.

Remember - Hamas executed civilians at a festival, they executed entire families. That is not in dispute.

Mutilation, rape, the worst forms of abuse imaginable - all are within the capabilities of Hamas.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227218#Comment_121227218

I have no idea what you are saying then or what you are trying to justify. It seems you were saying because of their intransigence to give up their claims to the land and that the Israeli culture is better that the Arabs should leave or something. It does sounds alot like what happened to the native Americans and would have happened here too if we hadnt had defeated the British. I dont favour the Arabs over the Israeli or wish one party was defeated by the other.

A lot of commentators on social media do have the opinion that we should support the Jewish people over the Arbas in this land dispute because the jews are more like us and have more Nobel prizes- its all nonsense.

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227446#Comment_121227446

It won't. Israel are playing right into Ali Khamenei's hands. This is what Iran want as they sit back back and laugh from Tehran like the evil sh its they are. If Israel want to effect change they should be looking at that and not the 2 million plus innocents in Gaza.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227464#Comment_121227464

The difference is that capturing the Hamas fighters is a legitimate act of war. Taking Shani Louk hostage is a war crime.

Long Sean Silver

i honestly think there are some posters on here that believe EVERYTHING they see, hear or read on Sky, CNN, Daily Mail, RT. they swallow every bit of it hook, line & sinker.

it's a sad indictment of our educational system, that they seem incapable of critical analysis.

Hummingbird Project

And as for Mary Lou criticising Israel but saying she has many Jewish American friends, she is trying to aggrandise herself by being critical of them when she has no place to do so.

She has advocated for the committing of war crimes by the IRA as necessary, so her moral high ground doesn’t exist.

She isn’t being critical of war crimes by Israel because she believes those crimes are necessary in circumstances aligned with her goals. She is a hypcrite and has no place criticising Israel.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227385#Comment_121227385

There was widespread acceptance of a two state solution among Palestinians at the time of the Oslo accords. Israelis expansion of settlements and continued apartheid policies has steadily eroded this.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227478#Comment_121227478

Im sure they will but the ultra violent, ultra fascist theological hole that is Gaza has to be neutralised as a threat first.

Certainly Iran needs taking care of as well. It is a significant global threat.

satguy

The Israelis have been killing women and children for the best part of 20 years now.

And the more money and equipment the USA give them the more civilians they kill. Some of the lies the Israelis have been telling in the last few days about dead babies are just a smoke screen to hide what they are doing to the Palestinians.

How can a nation that will Bulldoze a Palestinian area to make way for Jewish Settlers have any honor,, How can the West watch this and let it go. Why?

Bad things have been done on both sides,, And no end is in sight..

Burty330

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227176#Comment_121227176

What do you mean their land? The Jews and Judaism which far predates Islam have been on that land since babylon times. Don't be telling me to read any book. That only tells me how uninformed you are.

History lesson -

Israel recognizes the sovereignty of the Palestinian Authority over the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the Oslo Accords. Yasser Arafat, an egyptian Btw, uses it to support terrorism.

2000: Israel offers Yasser Arafat recognition of a Palestinian state in all of Gaza and 94% of the West Bank with East Jerusalem as its Capital. Arafat rejects it and launches the Second Intifada. 2005:

Israel pulls out of the gaza , dismantles all its settlements, and forces Jews to leave their homes. Palestinians respond by electing Hamas who turn it into a terror state.

2008: Israel offers Mahmoud Abbas once again recognition of a Palestinian state in all of gaza and 94% of the West Bank with East Jerusalem as its Capital and even offered to dismantle all their settlements. And once again, the Palestinians reject it.

2010-2021: Hamas launches periodic rocket attacks against the state of Israel and builds terror tunnels in order to kidnap and murder Jews while using the people of Gaza as human shields against the IDF.

There's a chain of events that lead to Isreals brutal response and its mosty always instigated by the Arabs. Hamas knows what will happenen to innocent lives yet sacrifices them without a care in the world.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227406#Comment_121227406

I don't have a 'lot'.

There are some fairly bonkers people on the Israeli side i.e. the haridim, but the bulk of Israeli Jews are pretty secular. Certainly nothing like the insane death cult that is Hamas.

If you ever want validation of this, go check out the gay scene in Tel Aviv!

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227478#Comment_121227478

like that clown Bush, post 911. Bin Laden couldn't believe his luck he even said so.

1 trillion Dollars, 1 million dead, 20 years later (the creation of Al Qaeda/ISIS), and now Israel has a replica clown about to mimic those same mistakes.

UNBELIEVABLE

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227523#Comment_121227523

I'm sure they have checked it out, exit points, lanes where a car could be driven up close etc etc

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227509#Comment_121227509

Are you denying hamas killed children in Saturdays and Sundays terrorist attack, what is currently happening in Gaza since Saturday was brought up the Palestinians by terrorists , terrorists who are directly funded by others countries,

Has Hamas done anything to improve the lives of Gazans over the last few decades, have they tried to do anything that didn't involve terrorist attacks and sending kids off on suicide bombings and killing under the guise of Martyrdom,

Both sides have to be condemned absolutely condemned,

But until both sides realise that violence only breeds violence then nothing will change,

One side has made concessions the other has made zero consessions while continuing to regularly carry out terrorist attacks

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227464#Comment_121227464

Some of them might have been, who knows. I've seen some awful videos of IDF soldiers urinating on Hamas terrorists and running over bodies too, really awful stuff.

You have to admit though, if we actually stop for a moment with this back and forth 'your side is worth than mine! crap, and apply logic to the situation, what is more logical - that a young attractive woman practically naked and unconscious in the back of a van filled with terrorists is going to have been sexually assaulted, or that stripped captive male terrorists will have been sexually assaulted?

Without going down a 'males and rape' rabbit hole, rape happens during war and it is predominantly male on female. It's a fact of War. During WW2, US soldiers liberating France raped French women.

I'd suggest having a read of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_liberation_of_France

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227588#Comment_121227588

And there's eye witness testimony of Hamas carrying out rapes during the horrific attacks at the music festival.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/survivors-of-hamas-assault-on-music-fest-describe-horrors-and-how-they-made-it-out-alive

Burty330

Sadat Anwar the egyptian president assassinated for making peace with Isreal

https://youtu.be/FiTV4GBQnkI?si=-WgBdaaI_OCytf3l

Long Sean Silver

i think they would be ill-advised to go gung ho after Iran. they probably are behind this, but it would be prudent to gather proof first. we dont want another WMD scenario.

the priority is dealing with now HAMAS, then at a later stage Iran (if proven). AND they shouldn't just ignore (what's left of) the Palestinians. they need to make peace with them, if possible.

it will be more difficult to make peace with them than to bomb & starve them. mass murder is pretty easy if you got the means, which Israel clearly does.

anybody that thinks knocking 7 shades (ie comitting War Crimes) outta the Gaza and we're done is beyond stupidity imo. this will take decades.

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216600#Comment_121216600

https://piqsuite.com/reuters/un-experts-say-israels-strikes-on-gaza-amount-to-collective-punishment

WAR CRIME. As is kidnap.

UN experts say Israel's strikes on Gaza amount to 'collective punishment'

Oct 12th, 09:46:30

GENEVA (Reuters via PiQSuite.com) -A group of independent United Nations experts on Thursday condemned violence against civilians in Israel and deplored the "collective punishment" of reprisal strikes against Gaza.

While condemning the "horrific crimes committed by Hamas", the group said that Israel had resorted to "indiscriminate military attacks against the already exhausted Palestinian people of Gaza".

"They have lived under unlawful blockade for 16 years, and already gone through five major brutal wars, which remain unaccounted for," the group, which includes several U.N. special rapporteurs, said in a statement.

"This amounts to collective punishment. There is no justification for violence that indiscriminately targets innocent civilians, whether by Hamas or Israeli forces. This is absolutely prohibited under international law and amounts to a war crime."

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226348#Comment_121226348

The Whitehouse has clarified Biden's statement. I think your post might have been a bit premature ........

Furze99

Israel is doing real & serious & lasting damage to it's image in these days. That's what they seem to be forgetting - the world is watching and an increase in hatred towards this state can only be increasing. They are lost in a fog of retribution. Yes, they've done this before but there comes a point when even ordinary people are aghast.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227368#Comment_121227368

Indeed, and with the eyes of the world on the region the impetus is there.

Israel is the more powerful combatant. It is not being invaded and is fully mobilised to be able to defend its borders against militants who managed a surprise attack but are not capable of taking on the Israelis head-to-head. They are in the better position to keep cooler heads and think in longer terms.

They had global sympathy from the events of the weekend and eyes were opened to the nature of Hamas — for whom this is not a freedom fight, but a fanatic cultist Jihad. There was room for Israel to step forward and show the world that they are the conciliatory force and that, from an "enough is enough" standpoint they are committed to a sustainable solution. If they could react reasonably to the horror perpetrated on them, in full acknowledgement that such things are easier said than done, there was opportunity.

Instead, in demolishing Gaza they are demolishing their goodwill. They are acting with the same vengeful emotion that sent the Americans into hopeless wars after 9/11 that made the world more unstable, more dangerous, cultivated more hate and only contributed to the cycle of violence.

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227497#Comment_121227497

Is it not possible to criticise a government /foreign policy position while having empathy for the people? Strikes me as a tad naive or, say it ain't so, disingenuous.

Clearly SF identify with the Palestinians. That's old news. Leo Varadkar is also balancing his language. Its what measured people do as they occupy the middle; or aspire to.

Do you wholeheartedly agree with the Irish foreign policy position? Assuming that you are an Irish citizen?? Very vitriolic chap/chapette...

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227588#Comment_121227588

I think your “logic” is perverse. Rape in wartime has nothing got to with being “young and attractive” it’s about hate, terror, domination and humiliation.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227727#Comment_121227727

Not strange at all, I started to reply before the edit, the comment was so outrageous (and still is, despite the clarification) that I delayed responding so as to make sure I wasn't overdoing the response. It took a while to calm down sufficiently to respond civilly.

JC01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226212#Comment_121226212

Putin hasn’t used nukes for a number of reasons. He probably doesn’t see the military value in it (yet), he doesn’t want to irradiate half of Ukraine and Russia (easterly wind) and I’d imagine the Russian nuclear arsenal is as disappointing as its second army of the world has proven to be so probably doesn’t want to prove that to the world either. Unsure of how nukes came up to be honest. You claimed Isreal was a terror state intent on exterminating the Palestinians, I highlighted how facts would show otherwise. I used Russia as an example of a terrorist state that actually is working to severely harm the ethnic makeup of Ukraine as can be seen in its mass kidnappings of 100s of thousands of Ukrainian children. Isreal has never kidnapped a Palestinian child as far as I’m aware? Actually Hamas are the only side of this conflict guilty lf mass kidnappings which means they are the one sharing common ground with Russians terror inducing actions here.

As for the water, if I supply my neighbours water and he breaks in ans murders my family well then I’m going to turn the supply off simple as.

To complicate it a bit more it’s the “next step up” as Israel has to be seen to match the level of escalation that Hamas has brought to this conflict in the last week. I’m not justifying it as a moral or correct act because it’s not, it’s horrible and will cause immense suffering but I’m also mature enough to realise that that’s what happens in a war that has been opened as this one has. I don’t think it’s Israel trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza or end the Palestinian people etc.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227732#Comment_121227732

Is it really significantly different whether the babies were beheaded or just merely butchered?

Arguing that Hamas really aren't so bad because they refrained from beheading the babies they butchered isn't a good look, is it?

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227817#Comment_121227817

Turn the water off, as a landlord, or a neighbour where the water valve was inadvertently left on your property, and you'll find yourself prosecuted.

Its important to not post daft stuff. Simple as.