Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227834#Comment_121227834

Well you can't really be making a big deal about the beheading aspect specifically and then say it is irrelevant if it turns out to have no basis.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227521#Comment_121227521

Are you seriously arguing for a return of all lands everywhere to be returned to the descendants of original holders as of 500BC?

Who will come for your house?

If that is your “history lesson” then I can recommend some further reading for you.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227817#Comment_121227817

Apartheid state is the correct term.

Racial Classification:

Citizens are classified into distinct racial or ethnic groups, with legal definitions and consequences based on these classifications. Check

Segregation Laws:

Legislation enforces physical separation of different racial groups in public spaces, schools, housing, and other aspects of daily life.Check

Restricted Movement:

There are limitations on the freedom of movement for certain racial groups, often requiring permits or passes for travel between designated areas.Check

Unequal Access to Resources:

Certain racial groups face systematic economic and social disadvantages, with unequal access to education, healthcare, employment opportunities, and other resources.Check

Discriminatory Legal System:

The legal system is structured to favor the dominant racial group, with discriminatory laws and policies that reinforce the subordinate status of other racial groups.

Separate Educational Systems:

Different racial groups have separate and often unequal educational systems, with variations in quality, resources, and opportunities for advancement.Check

Limited Political Rights:

Members of certain racial groups are denied full political rights, including the right to vote or participate in the political process on an equal basis.Check

Forced Removals:

Certain racial groups may be forcibly removed from their homes and communities to create segregated living areas or to enforce racial purity.Check

Violence and Repression:

The state may use violence, intimidation, and repression to maintain control and suppress dissent among marginalized racial groups.Check

State-Sponsored Discrimination:

Discrimination is not just a societal issue but is often explicitly supported and enforced by the state, including through legislation and government policies.Check

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227817#Comment_121227817

You can't say you are not justifying it and then in the next sentence, justify as being part of war. Not condemning an action because its just part of war as you see it, is a slippery slope to justifying a whole host of actions that happen in war sometimes but shouldn't happen, like killing POWs.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227723#Comment_121227723

That is just careful text. It says that violence that indiscriminately targets innocent civilians is absolutely prohibited under international law and amounts to a war crime. I don't disagree with that.

However, it says "whether by Hamas or Israeli forces", so it isn't referring to particular instances, and isn't drawing a judgement. All I have done is point to the clear war crimes - the actions of Hamas at the music festival, the kibbutz and in homes - while also pointing to the grey area in respect of the Israeli actions.

Nothing in that text contradicts what I have said. I also believe that the horrific war crimes committed by Hamas are to be condemned, and the Israeli reaction goes way, way too far.

TracyMartell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227751#Comment_121227751

Yeah it’s a huge conspiracy against you in particular 🙄

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227849#Comment_121227849

You can stick with the "I only butchered them m'Lord, I didn't behead them" defence for Hamas if you wish, I don't buy it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227855#Comment_121227855

I kind of think that there is one clear difference between the two sides.

Israel allows Muslims and Palestinians to live among them, albeit subject to discriminatory laws that Israelis feel are needed to protect themselves.

Palestinians don't allow Jews to live among them, they just want to eliminate them from the face of the earth. You can't be discriminated against if you don't exist.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227880#Comment_121227880

You know that Israeli special forces stormed a Gazan orphanage last night and used battery powered portable circular saws to cut all the limbs and heads off more than 100 crying Palestinian kids?

Obviously I have no evidence that this happened, but we do know that Palestinian kids were killed in airstrikes last night. And - as you have already established - we can lie about the methodology used in the murder as it is irrelevant. So you will have no issue with my statement above

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227595#Comment_121227595

One Israeli soldier.

Banzai600

BOTH ISRAEL & HAMAS are where they are now due to no compromise / negotiations etc , who's at fault?..............I cannot answer and neither can anyone here. The west didnt help at all, as usual. Probably made it worse?

The atrocities carried out on innocent ppl by hamas are indefensible as is the steam rolling massacre of thousands of innocent ppl in Gaza by Israel. I dread to think how many in Gaza will be have been killed once this is over. Total wipeout ? FRANCE24 reckon 1400+ dead in Gaza thus far, and around 6500 injured. The numbers are a lot higher you can bet, how many are hamas, very little id say. This is a mass rampage by Israel becuase of the resources they have to hand.. And then on the other hand, you'll have more Israeli's killed / injured due to the counter rockets / bombings going back at them....

FYI, Ch4 debunked videos and tweets on a report , so be careful what you think is true. There are ppl out there stirring the pot, with their own agendas , making it even worse for both sides. But newspapers and media sites ran with the fake news from both sides which wasnt true yesterday.

All i see on the usual news sites are green lights for Israel to keep going! And NATO saying Israel should use "proportionality" - WTF !! How do you use proportion in an area 40 kms X 12 kms with 2.3 million ppl inside that tiny piece of land ? Its barbaric. Israel want revenge, i get it, but this isnt the way. guerliia warefare , the innocents suffer the most, always.

i thought with all we had seen in the world over recent yrs and not so distant past, with war etc , but this is a turning point in history, no doubt about it and i think its going to get a lot worse.

NATO: NATO countries on Thursday told Israel's defence minister they stood by his country after the attack by Hamas, but urged his forces to respond with "proportionality", the alliance said. Their statement came after 1,354 Palestinians were reported to have been killed and 6,409 wounded in Israeli air strikes since Saturday, the Gaza health ministry said. Follow our live blog for all the latest developments. All times are Paris time (GMT+2).

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231012-%F0%9F%94%B4-live-israel-announces-large-scale-strike-on-gaza-un-calls-for-aid-for-palestinians

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227870#Comment_121227870

It explicitly says that indiscriminate bombing attacks on Gaza amount to collective punishment. Collective punishment is a war crime.

My post is in direct response to your strenuous efforts to fail to crystallise, since your post interactions with Donald Trump and I, since you started posting on this thread, that Israeli actions in closing off Gaza amount to collective punishment.

What more legal proofs do you require other than the guardian of that international law clearly stating that Israel is currently committing war crimes (and continues to be held unaccountable for similar atrocities in recent decades).

There is little point in attempting to balance your posts if you do not acknowledge the depth of war criminality on both sides. One being substantially more powerful militarily, but light years more powerful via economic and social powers. The solution lies in a distribution of thoae economic and civil society structure advantages. Strangely, bombing hospitals....not so much.

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227834#Comment_121227834

Yes it is important actually. Language and facts matter. If Biden is willing to lie about that then you have every right to question anything else he has told us. We all know politicians lie but it's rare to see an American president get caught out so frequently as Biden making stuff up.

Hummingbird Project

Good to see the Irish Times with insight into both Sinn Féin’s agitating the separatists movement in Spain, and the division in the EU on Israel. Both interesting articles.

SF backs many separatist movements including in Canada and many other nations I was not aware of. Spains government is in coalition with Catalans, hence the Spanish stance on Israel. They are trying to keep their own nation together by appeasing the terrorists/separatists.

Quote from it:

“Sinn Fein portrays its foreign sympathies as leftist, anti-colonial and even revolutionary, yet Scottish and Catalan independence are utterly bourgeois causes, with no colonial context and backed by centre-right parties”

Long Sean Silver

reading this thread it's clear some people will NEVER move on. unbelievable as it seems here in the 21st Century some folk are stuck in the Old Testament!

Good Lord! (no offence intended to our Jewish or Muslim friends) it's time to move on folks.

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227943#Comment_121227943

And that's got what to do with the thread title?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227927#Comment_121227927

Legal proofs? The opinion of some bystanders? The UN has not expressed an opinion, some experts have.

All I have done is point to some legal defences available to Israel to demonstrate that their actions do not amount to war crimes. There is no such ambiguity around the actions of Hamas.

All through this thread, posters have been attempting to label Israeli actions as war crimes, while ignoring the actions of Hamas. I am just pointing out the legalities.

You naive solution ignores the reality that the clear objective of Hamas (and presumably of those in Ireland and elsewhere that give it succour) is the elimination of Israel and the Jews "from the river to the sea". Until that changes, no peaceful solution is possible.

Reports in that Israel has attacked airports in both Damascus and Aleppo, rendering both out of service.

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1712433956002415024

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227981#Comment_121227981

Ah would you stop. What guff.

Hummingbird Project

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227794#Comment_121227794

What is Irelands position? That we back keeping up financial support to Gaza? I wholeheartedly support that position. I do however, not advocate the Irish nation not flying the Israeli flag in wake of the terrorist murders.

Because I believe it is based on Nazi Germanys hatred of Jews. I would like to learn where this anti-Jewish sentiment was conceived in Ireland becuse it is far wide and prevalent up to the highest corridors of power in Ireland.

It’s based on De Veleras first inconsiderate stance towards the Jews and secondly some sort of supposed anti-colonial project. It has nothing to do with human rights and is poisonous and evil in its source.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227834#Comment_121227834

In one sense the method by which babies are murdered isn't important. Murdering a baby by any means is obviously grotesque. Murdering a baby by any means is still the murder of a baby, which is incredibly shocking and repulsive.

But in another sense, the propaganda sense, it is very important. This story that 40 babies were beheaded is being used effectively as the pretext to inflict genocide. Beheading a baby would be the ultimate mark of savagery. It's pretty much the last taboo of human behaviour. It's almost impossible to do something more grotesque than beheading babies. The idea that people would do such a thing is almost uniquely shocking and repulsive. It is the sort of story that breaks down the world's resistance to the genocide of a people.

But we don't have real, verifiable evidence that the story is true, we've had a lot of drip drip, hearsay, misspeaking, words that are vague and can be taken in different ways. That's how propaganda works. If the story is true, it should be very easy to verify. You bring in a group of reputable journalists from the international press who are not connected to each other, and reputable international observers, and you show them the evidence first hand, with their own eyes.

This isn't remotely an argument that Hamas "really aren't so bad". Hamas are f-ing appalling. We know that.

It is an argument to say that truth in journalism matters. Genocide should never be perpetrated. History tells us that when genocide happens it always happens because of propaganda.

supermans ghost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227313#Comment_121227313

Are you really though? cos you didn’t appear that way to me based on your earlier posts in this thread, calling another poster ‘f*cking stupid’ is not the action of a rational calm individual in my book and and then you have the temerity to complain about the ‘state of the thread’. Oh well.

Anyway, I’m certain you’ll have have the last word as fits your personality, so I’ll leave you to it, but remember “words matter.

Raoul Duke III

Damascus and Aleppo airports bombed by the Israelis. Interesting development.

Raoul Duke III

Iran....Syria.....Russia.

Interesting nexus.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227854#Comment_121227854

I don't think he said that.

In my opinion the point being made is that Palestinians have been offered ample opportunities for their own state by Israel and the Un General Assembly in 1948 and once again in Oslo accord 1993.

Each time they have broken the agreement and to add fat to fire they elect a terrorist shower of scum in 2006 that actually want Israel destroyed.

You tell me how you deal with that neighbour.

Free Palestine my ass.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227598#Comment_121227598

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin

Happens on both sides unfortunately.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227985#Comment_121227985

Pretty regular occurrence

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228093#Comment_121228093

Rumours Iranian arms shipments were inbound. Forced to turn back.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228012#Comment_121228012

It's a fair question that you cannot or will not answer.

Israel gave 12 hours notice to civilians in Gaza of what was to come. Which is alot more than was afforded to Israeli civilians by those scum.

Why didn't they go to Northern border , Rafah crossing and wait it out in Egypt.

Even Egypt won't let them in , I wonder why.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226876#Comment_121226876

This is a war between two nations. One nation has aerplanes tanks and a huge Army. The other side doesn't. And can not import any of the above. It is completely lopsided. Options are fight gorilla or not fight.

But their reason to fight is as legitimate as you can get. Their nation has no freedom. We in the free west would not accept not having freedom and would fight for it too.

TedBundysDriver

On a human level if you’re moved by the slaughter of civilians in Israel you must be moved by what is happening in Gaza, the place is being raised to the ground, where can civilians go that is safe, can’t imagine what will happen to civilians when the ground invasion starts.

I do find it curious that everyone seems to be able to rightfully call Hamas out for the murdering scumbags that they are but certain posters refuse to be even a little bit critical of Israel's murderous over the top response. It's almost like they don't value Palestinian lives to the same degree actually i'd say if they where honest and just admitted it they'd get more respect than attempting to hide it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227606#Comment_121227606

”light on clothing” I suppose you think she was asking for it.

You skulked away for a day when you were unable to condem the murders of civilians by Hamas terrorists last weekend.

You are displaying some seriously intolerant attitudes.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228098#Comment_121228098

That's the usual especially at Damascus airport or it's parameter

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228113#Comment_121228113

It is clear from some in the media that palestinians lives are not as important.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228093#Comment_121228093

Pretty regular all right. How about apologising for calling me a liar and admitting you were wrong?

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228107#Comment_121228107

Egypt won't potentially let in 2m people. I wonder why.

Israel blockades Gaza and then tells civilians to leave? Be honest.

Sky News has shown the Rafah crossing being BOMBED only a few hundred yards away. Be honest and abre los ojos.

https://news.sky.com/video/israel-strikes-near-rafah-border-crossing-with-egypt-after-telling-gazans-to-flee-through-it-12981936

Are you just badly informed or genuinely disingenuous?

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228133#Comment_121228133

Hamas don't have a strategy, they are Iran's attack dog to do stuff the Iranians don't have the sands to do themselves. If Iranian soldiers flew into Israel and carried this out Tehran would be nuked. If Israel had any sense they'd shore up the Gaza border and double down on helping the Palestinians so they turn against Hamas whilst directing their anger at Iran and Iran only but they are falling right into the Iranian trap, blinded by anger and into an unwinnable position.

dennis72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228110#Comment_121228110

There was no fight, well armed men breaking in family residences and a music festival 8am was an indiscriminate planned mass butchering of as many innocents as possible.

Despicable behaviour celebrated under a Palestinian flag some choose to show here.

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228150#Comment_121228150

Good luck with that...

enfant terrible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228110#Comment_121228110

So you can understand the activitys that were carried out on Saturday?

Overheal

Bernie Sanders calls out Israel for the open air prison conditions

https://www.businessinsider.com/sanders-gaza-is-open-air-prison-israel-violating-international-law-2023-10

StringerBell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226512#Comment_121226512

And now, as it appears to be more likely than not that the rumours were false - what does it do for now you view the news you consume? Would you be more likely to pause and think?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228249#Comment_121228249

Fair play Bernie

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228014#Comment_121228014

Where the sentiment comes from? That one's easy: The RCC and its pernicious influence over Irish thought and culture.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228150#Comment_121228150

I'm not wrong.

StringerBell

You'd think the Israeli government could at least get on the same page, one representative saying they give civilians plenty of time to leave the areas that are to be bombed while almost at the same time the commander of military forces saying they are going for damage rather than accuracy.

As always it's ordinary people who suffer most.

Long Sean Silver

i see Hertzog is now calling the HAMAS attack a HOLOCAUST.

no doubt it was a most grave, brutal, heinous attack, but calling it a holocaust is just hyperbole, and by mis-using the word in this way there is a very real danger it becomes lessened in its' meaning.

Gatling

Grown Palestinian men using babies as human shields

https://twitter.com/LernerIsaak/status/1711836152167280777?s=20

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227903#Comment_121227903

Nope, they were not there as a soldier or certainly you have provided no evidence to support that claim. It was a music festival attended by civilians in civilian capacity. Large numbers of the Israeli population have served in the military at some point. You know this and are using it as misinformation to discredit them.

With every excuse the agenda of your posts attempting to exonerate Hamas terrorists of atrocities and defend them against such claims becomes more apparent. Any excuse to avoid acceptance of their atrocities as a fact and condemning them for it.

So who should they ask? The dead. The victims?

This is what you said:

 Rape in wartime has nothing got to with being “young and attractive” it’s about hate, terror, domination and humiliation.

Hate, terror, domination and humiliation.

All of which describes what Hamas set out to do in their horrific attacks against Israeli civilians, executing them executing entire families.

So even by the standards you have set, rape would be part of that strategy.

And as eye witness attests, along with executing civilians, there was rape and other abuse and atrocities.

We go to hide in a bush, a big bush in the creek. And we was in the bush something like six or seven hours. A lot of terrorists go around us and search for people to kill. The terrorists, people from Gaza, raped girls. And after they raped them, they killed them, murdered them with knives, or the opposite, killed — and after they raped, they — they did that.

Overheal

JingleJangle69 was right to be skeptical

the WH retracts claims it saw intelligence that Hamas was beheading babies and Israel cannot confirm it happened.

Users cited Biden as their source for this as a fact.

https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-pictures-terrorists-beheading-children-white-house-2023-10

Stop claiming without evidence that baby beheading happened everyone, thanks