Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

TinyMuffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756582#Comment_121756582

I am. But you have to see the other side of it too. And these people were killed as a diversion

https://x.com/GUnderground_TV/status/1756956891970707674?s=20

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756882#Comment_121756882

The analogy was used to make the point that it is easier for extreme positions to develop and grow, and for more people to be recruited to them, when those people are oppressed.

You shouldn't need a sniper rifle trained on a palestinian youth 24/7 for the rest of his life to stop him from being an extremist. You just need to give him the opportunity to build a future that he would not want to jeopardise. Give him something to live for or else the extremists will give him something to die for.

On the other side of the coin, if there were consequences for Israeli settlers and other zionist terrorists, they might also not want to jeopardise their futures and might desist from their behaviours.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756633#Comment_121756633

If someone in Hamas was to take an extreme sociopathic view on the situation, at this stage they might conclude that murdering the hostages could save Palestinian civilian lives.

It shouldn't have to be said - but I'm not saying they should. Just pointing out the reality of the situation.

blue note

Would anyone be able to point me in the direction of a documentary on the formation of Israel from an Israeli perspective? I'm just trying to understand the conflict and there's endless stuff from the Palestinian perspective and it's very easy to understand to be honest. But from the Israeli side all I can get is that they were being pushed out of other places, the Brits said they could have that place, god promised it to them long before that, their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. And there's basically no acknowledgement of the three quarters of a million people that were made refugees and obviously then no understanding of the inevitable consequences of that.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756867#Comment_121756867

LOL I grew up there. I bet you don't even know basic stuff like who "the faceless men" were? (Hint, it's from before the troubles, and has nothing to do with paramilitaries, but is about the systemic discrimination that nationalists suffered.) I'm under no illusions about Northern Ireland.

But I've also travelled since then, to Mongolia and Ecuador and a couple of other places where people are genuinely poor.

And secondly, if you knew anything at all about it, you'd know that the IRA and violent protest generally, got NOTHING for the nationalist community. That's a rewriting by Sinn Fein and eejits who - as I said before - were perfectly happy to go along with the previous groupthink about Northern Ireland, about the need for Section 31 for example, are now equally ready to unthinkingly swallow the narrative that says that the IRA was an inevitable outpouring of nationalist pain. It wasn't.

This is not the thread for a detailed discussion of the NI conflict, so I'm aware I'm off topic but it'w important when you keep bringing this in. I'll just suggest you look at the timelines of what really happened: for instance all the major civil rights gains - one man one vote, fair housing, anti-discrimination laws in the workplace - were all accepted well before the IRA and violent protest became a thing. Those rights were either being set up or were already in place, depending on how complex the changes required were.

The IRA then jumped on the bandwagon, aided by a number of errors by the British government, mostly caused by the fact that when Labour lost to the Tories in 1970, the Tories wanted to "do things differently" to Labour, and took an openly pro-loyalist and pro-police approach.

But the IRA themselves were never about civil rights. Peaceful protest by NICRO got those for us. The IRA caused more damage to nationalists, in all sorts of ways (including wrecking the economy and eliminating tourism for 20+years) as well as the consequence of having the British Army all over the place.

But you know, I'm old to remember - just - when the army arrived, and people were so happy and relieved to see them. They were coming to save us from the B Specials. Why it all went wrong after is an interesting point - see my point about the Tories above, but it's more complicated than that - and does, despite my main argument here - also have lessons for understanding why the IDF are so brutal to Palestinian civilians.

Took me years to understand that, BTW, so I get why you, from outside, don't get it. The simplistic "us versus them" is so much easier to (think you) understand.

(I see you've even quoted the NICRO link - WTF did they have to do with violent protest?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Civil_Rights_Association

As for your Open Democracy link - the reality is that the riots are very like the Dublin riots a couple of months ago. A woman I know well whose 14 year old son was arrested (in NI, not Dublin) actually said to me "Sure what else do the young ones have to do around here?" Like FFS? It's called PARENTING. And as for the claim that they have nothing to do? Utter sh1te.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757003#Comment_121757003

I'll repeat what I already attempted to explain to you a few times. The point is about the creation and growth of groups that would be considered extreme. Not about how effective they subsequently are.

The rest of your post is below JC level of history. Try to read some of those articles that I posted. They explain how areas of deprivation and poverty are fertile breeding grounds for sectarianism and paramilitarism. That's not saying (which I think you appear to be taking from it) that the paramilitaries are trying to cure the deprivation or poverty. It is merely saying that they using it

Timberrrrrrrr

The Netherlands have announced that they will no longer deliver parts for the F-35 fighter jets.

"Court orders Netherlands to halt delivery of fighter jet parts to Israel

The court noted a clear risk that the parts are being used in ‘serious violations of international humanitarian law’."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/12/court-orders-netherlands-to-halt-delivery-of-fighter-jet-parts-to-israel

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757055#Comment_121757055

Do try not to explain to me what you don't really understand yourself. I lived there, all the way through the worst of it. I don't need ill-informed southerners lecturing to me based on some googling.

I know they're using it - I said so myself. Obviously. But that doesn't make the two situations the same, and the answers aren't the same either. So you constantly referring to NI as though it were relevant (and it does have some parallels, just not the ones you think) is just increasing misinformation - about NI as much as about Palestine.

It's the lecturing from someone whose knowledge of the NI conflict is based on popular rumour and some googling that's irritating. If you want to tell other people they don't know about Northern Ireland, learn about it yourself first!

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756931#Comment_121756931

Wasn't that moment of opportunity Oslo? (amazing to think that was nearly 30 years ago now)

Or the oft-forgotten Olmert accords in 2008? When Olmert basically offered to remove almost all the West Bank settlements.

There have been opportunities for peace. Some of them have even been taken, such as the Camp David Accords or the Israel-Jordan Treaty.

But relitigating the past seems somewhat pointless....it's happened. What the players have to do, somehow, is find a path forward. Right now, there seems no willingness on either side to do so. So that's where the international power brokers should be stepping in.

taratee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755223#Comment_121755223

Biden is a career politician who is up for re-election soon. The US has always supported Israel and any deviation from that support will cost him votes. Those votes could be the difference between winning and losing when it comes to the election.

Timberrrrrrrr

More israeli scumbaggery

Israel told Palestinians to move south where they would be safe, Israel last night Bombed a refugee camp (there's probably a Hamas command center under those tents or something) killing and wounding hundreds.

Its genocide.

https://twitter.com/Resist_05/status/1756984541527581166?t=YqfylQBV2E0KUBkNcEnkNA&s=19

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756968#Comment_121756968

Hamas are already extreme sociopaths, by any normal reading of the term.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757262#Comment_121757262

Would you agree that the logical thing for Hamas to do would be to just murder the hostages then? Based on Israel's refusal to negotiate for their return?

Again, I'm not advocating they do. Just pointing it out.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757297#Comment_121757297

No, they are collateral and thus of value. Just look back to their previous episodes of hostage-taking.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757337#Comment_121757337

Collateral value is zero if Israel will not negotiate.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756659#Comment_121756659

I was in Iran for quite a while, and in all the places that I have been to, I have yet to meet a friendlier people. Yes, they are Muslim, Shia Islam which might be called a "milder" form. Currently Iranians are in a rebellious mode against the clergy and are agitating for a return of the Shah or a secular democracy. So, they are a far cry from the Palestinian Sunni's, who of course have suffered a long history of abuse by Israel, which has reached melt down proportions presently. But if it had never reached this stage, and they had gotten along OK, you would still have had an "Israel Out" movement. Thats the nature of Islam. And never mind the 90% of Muslims who only worry about their everyday lives and problems, same as you or I, it's the 10% hardline Jihadi's you have to worry about, because they punch far above their weight when it comes to the death and destruction of the unbelievers. And this makes it infinitely worse in a situation like we now have in Palestine. And that's the point I was trying to make. There's no comparison with events that happened here in Ireland, or indeed Europe, with events that have happened in the Middle East, and that's all down to radical Islam.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757344#Comment_121757344

Did you miss the previous hostage exchange, where Hamas released hostages and Israel released both aid and Palestinian prisoners (and implemented a ceasefire)? After negotiations.

Israel is negotiating, so is Hamas - Qatar is mediating. I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this - but proposing a hypothetical scenario that is not backed up by the actual facts seems quixotic, to say the least.

markodaly

A list, that contains the names and personal details of 600 Jews has been leaked online in Australia, with some pretty devastating consequences.

https://www.news.com.au/national/antiisraeli-activists-dox-almost-600-jewish-peoples-personal-details-from-whatsapp-chat/video/302bc8f94c178935fa16f45c9237c0b9

The government are rushing in to create a Doxxing law which could mean jail time for those behind future leaks.

It seems bizarre to me, how Anti-Semitism is now at its highest point in decades.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757150#Comment_121757150

Palestinians need to move forward towards a path of peace.

They need to drop the Jihadism and the Anti-Semitism and find a way to live in peace with Israel and their Jewish neighbours.

It is difficult because many of them are groomed from a young age and taught how to hate. But that is where leadership is needed, but sadly, the Palestinians have been badly led for decades now.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757003#Comment_121757003

This x1000

SF/PIRA was never about civil rights or human rights. They were all about militant republicanism whose sole and main aim was to violently defeat the British State and to leave Northern Ireland, where I guess some form of Utopia would then arrive.

It is one of the greatest myths perpetrated that SF/PIRA fought for civil and human rights. Any reading of the actual history will show this to be nonsense. It was arrived at after the GFA, to be re-sold as the PIRA 'winning' since ultimately they did not succeed in their first aim.

Peter Taylor sums it up best.

"SF and the IRA lost the war but were too clever to admit it.

Unionists won the war, but were too stupid to realise it"

Workhorse2024

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757392#Comment_121757392

Israel should stop murdering innocent people on an industrial scale using Hamas as an excuse.

Israelis are groomed in the exact same way everyone of them are conditioned to hate Palestinians and serve in the military to be able to kill them at a moments notice.

You only ever hold Palestinians accountable, why dont you tell the truth about the IDF ?

Workhorse2024

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757427#Comment_121757427

The greatest myth is "Israel cares about Palestinians and actively try to avoid civilians" thats the greatest myth lapped up by the likes of you, you could watch a IDF soldier in cold blood kill a man or women with a white flag and still believe that statement.

taratee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757437#Comment_121757437

Israelis are not groomed in the exact same way. Israel, the state, does not want to destroy Palestine. The same cannot be said for Palestine. Israelis are trained to serve in the military to protect their country just like any one of a number of different countries in the West. Israel provides employment for 80K+ Palestinians. If you go to work in Israel you could easily end up working on the same team as Israeli and Palestinian people. Hamas don't appear to be overly interested in creating employment for their own people, let alone Israelis, even in times of peace.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756902#Comment_121756902

Absolutely heartbreaking.

Workhorse2024

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757502#Comment_121757502

"Israel does not want to destroy Palestine"

You are currently watching them do it in 4k live streamed, tell us... How many videos of IDF soldiers shooting men women children... people waving white flags do you need to see before you review your own beliefs on Israel and the IDF?

What number of dead children would make you go... wait a min this is too far, its currently at 14k give us a ball park number on what would make you raise your eyebrow and question your beliefs.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757502#Comment_121757502

Work where in Israel exactly? Hardly going into a high paying IT job with Palestinians on the team, that is extremely unlikely. I would put the house on it. Israel, at least some in government right now and the fundamentalist groups most certainly do want to destroy Palenstine. Their actions speak louder than any mealy mouthed lie. You cannot equate Hamas and the Israeli state, the Israeli state has foreign investment and free trade. Palestine is and has been completely blockaded with little to no trade as a direct result of Israeli policy.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757437#Comment_121757437

Israelis are groomed in the exact same way everyone of them are conditioned to hate Palestinians and serve in the military to be able to kill them at a moment's notice.

Patently untrue, if you look at the facts.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757547#Comment_121757547

The primary motive for Israel is to destroy Hamas, not kill as many Palestinians as they can.

We do know that if Israel wanted to, given their military capabilities, they could kill many many more. The issue is Hamas and the nature of asymmetrical warfare.

No Hamas in Gaza, no war in Gaza. Its that simple.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755330#Comment_121755330

This is hyperbole but it suited your purposes i suppose to defend Israel. The war in Ukraine has shown Russia is no match for the west. The Russian army has been set back decades. Their arms exports have taken a drastic hit too as everyone sees most of their weaponry is inferior to that of the west. The Russian army won't be marching on any Nato country- they're struggling to take a town of 32000 people and suffering huge losses in the process. Yet according to you they'll be conquering eastern Europe. Good joke P.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755266#Comment_121755266

This is mainly true, but Israel does pay attention to what smaller countries do. Do you remember the anger over Leo's clumsy comments? The Israeli Government won't be swayed by Ireland's opinion but they do pay attention. If for example Ireland broke rank with the EU and called for sanctions on Israel, you can be sure that would be noted in Tel Aviv. The Government of course will never do that for fear of the American response.