Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791119#Comment_121791119

Or not funded or enabled funding of Hamas for years despite clear indicators and warnings. Almost like - ghasp, Likud has been using Hamas as their political scapegoat for decades.

Timberrrrrrrr

When they tell you that the IDF are "the most moral army in the world"

When they tell you the IDF do their best not to hurt innocent civilians.

When they claim the IDF does not commit war crimes

Show them this video and ask them why?

An unarmed man walks away from IDF soldiers, he clearly has his hands in the air and is no threat to them.

They shoot him in the back

It's genocide!

https://twitter.com/Alex_Oloyede2/status/1759640348408582627?t=F9_XpSMiY2zBprNAOk1hug&s=19

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121789777#Comment_121789777

It is israels problem. They're the ones dropping the bombs. they have a duty to make sure civilians aren't harmed. failure to do so is a war crime.

And if israel blocks the arrival of food, knowing it will hurt Palestinian civilians, then that is a war crime.

And if it's "not israels problem" and even if it's entirely legal, then that doesn't remove the moral problems with it. They are starving millions of civilians with in an effort to hurt Hamas. They are dropping bombs on people in an effort to kill fighters who might be there. That's literally murderous behavior. They are scum and no better than Hamas who targets civilians. And any person with a moral compass should oppose it.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121789976#Comment_121789976

From a site that doesn't spell Israel in quotes.

(https://www.timesofisrael.com/brazil-recalls-ambassador-summons-israeli-envoy-as-scuffle-over-gaza-remarks-deepens/)

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791292#Comment_121791292

Again you repeat this, when people show up here on an Irish message board saying they'd go enlist with Hamas, saying they'd bomb Israel. Stop denying people are supporting Hamas. They are.

I don't think you're supporting Hamas, nor the vast majority of posters here. The number supporting Hamas is non-zero however, and this is in the geopolitically minor leagues of Ireland. Useful idiots is what the Hamas supporters here and elsewhere are.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791301#Comment_121791301

There was one person suggest they might. That was months ago.

If that's the foundation for whatever validation/justification you're making, it's very weak.

There is no support for Hamas - just horror and disgust at Israel's continuing genocide.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791322#Comment_121791322

At least 2 I can recall.

I'm questioning the narrative "There's no support for Hamas." Not justifying anything - support for Hamas in any form is not justifiable, as I'm sure you agree.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791301#Comment_121791301

We've also had people say Palestinians should be ethnically cleansed from Gaza and the innocent men, women and children deserve what happens to them because they don't overthrow Hamas, you get trolls/idiots on both sides of these debates.

Iscreamkone

So - in your fairyland what happens next?

IDF ends hostilities tomorrow and retreats to Israel- what happens next after Hamas shoots a million rounds into the sky in victory?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791440#Comment_121791440

Oh, I'm sure we'll hear about paying to rebuild Gaza and so forth; basically, urban renewal by Hamas /s

Donald Trump

Scenes of kids trying to scrape small handfuls of spilled flour mixed in the dirt and putting it into their pockets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHRRJsBtGDw

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791542#Comment_121791542

Israeli assets around the world need to be frozen and then seized and sent to Palestinians. Same as in the analogous case of the Russians. And as bad as the Russian acts were, the Israeli ones really put them into the ha'penny place in comparison

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791292#Comment_121791292

You keep saying that people are not supporting Hamas even after it's been pointed out to you more than once that some people have been doing exactly that.

Others are not supporting Hamas openly but are insisting that Israel has no right to defend itself against Hamas simply because Hamas uses its fellow Palestinians as shields for its soldiers.

Of course it is possible to be against Hamas while criticising Israel, but unless you have a plausible suggestion for how else Israel can act to prevent another Oct 7th, any insistence on a unilateral ceasefire is effectively support for Hamas.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791322#Comment_121791322

Untrue - several posters expressed varying degrees of support for Hamas, and denied Israel's right to exist.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791264#Comment_121791264

What they have is a duty to avoid civilian deaths whenever possible. Not an impossibility to conduct a legitimate military operation the minute any civilians might be put in danger. If you think that's wrong, BTW, then please do quote the line in the Geneva Convention or wherever that you think contradicts that.

Yes they have a moral responsibility too. I don't disagree there. However, as I've said before, Israel's first moral responsibility is to its own citizens. So until there's a feasible alternative to a military response to achieve the legitimate aim of removing Hamas from power in Gaza, I don't really see what else Israel is supposed to do.

As I recall, some posters suggested way back that they should continue their previous strategy of targeting and taking out Hamas members extrajudicially - but when they attacked alleged Hamas members in Iran or in the West Bank, the overwhelming response by the anti Israel posters on here was "What scumbags the Israelis are". So it seems that was not a genuine suggestion - and actually since it didn't prevent Oct 7th in the first place, the strategy has already shown its limits.

Timberrrrrrrr

Israel declares that it is above internation law and can do whatever the hell it wants, its time for the international community start to impose serious sanctions against them.

https://twitter.com/IsraeliPM/status/1759581368193872057?t=FSFvrdMAdQ3K0OFewKCEsg&s=19

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791660#Comment_121791660

You're equating disapproval of Israeli methods as covertly supporting Hamas. Again.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791706#Comment_121791706

No, I'm equating an insistence that Israel basically accept Hamas' continued attacks on Israeli civilians because Hamas cares less about Palestinian lives than Israel is meant to, with "covertly supporting Hamas".

That said, I'm sure many people here are genuinely well-intentioned on this - but unless they can tell us how Israel could prevent the future attacks that Hamas has promised to commit, other than by military attacks, I think they are as disastrously well-intentioned as was Neville Chamberlain in 1938.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791729#Comment_121791729

Maybe not continue to escalate incidents against the Palestinians. Israel has done absolutely nothing to normalise relations with Palestine, actively hindering their economic prospects, personal freedom and settling on land against all international agreements. Does this justify what happened on October 7th? Of course not, that would be madness. Israel, however, had the opportunity to extend an olive branch and give Palestinians an alternative choice. One with dialogue and equality.

They chose to continually grind down a population creating more and more radicalised people as a result. Is it all Israels fault? No, the international community, in particular the US/UK/France/Germany should have been proactive DECADES ago to try and normalise things. The PLO made a complete balls of it too in 2006 through their own ineptitude and corruption resulting in Hamas getting a plurality.

Israel clearly has the upper hand here. They continue to chose the option of destruction, death, famine and purging the land of any and all Palestinians instead. History will not be kind to them.

circadian

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-02-16/rafah-gaza-hospitals-surgery-israel-bombing-ground-offensive-children

"I stopped keeping track of how many new orphans I had operated on. After surgery they would be filed somewhere in the hospital, I’m unsure of who will take care of them or how they will survive. On one occasion, a handful of children, all about ages 5 to 8, were carried to the emergency room by their parents. All had single sniper shots to the head. These families were returning to their homes in Khan Yunis, about 2.5 miles away from the hospital, after Israeli tanks had withdrawn. But the snipers apparently stayed behind. None of these children survived."

Someone explain to me how this is acceptable. How the IDF do not need to be held to task for things like this.

What Hamas done, does not justify this.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791729#Comment_121791729

"how Israel could prevent the future attacks that Hamas has promised to commit, other than by military attacks"

Ceasefire

Followed by genuine discussion as to how to create a 2 state solution, get the whole international community involved. Israel pulls back to its birders and that includes all illegal settlers, UN peacekeeping forces (if needed) and a massive international effort to rebuild Gaza/Palestine for the people.

Build an airport, fix up the harbours and allow Palestinians to build an economy where they can prosper by trading thier goods wherever and when ever they want instead of when Israel says so.

Let them have thier land, let them have their identity and let them have their dignity instead of another few decades of apartheid and murder/atrocities by both sides.

It's not something that can be fixed overnight but look what happened in NI, after so many years of peace and stability do you think the people of NI.would go back to the dark days of the 70's/80's?

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791814#Comment_121791814

Don't invoke NI. Apparently all you southern lot don't know anything about it.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791818#Comment_121791818

I'm a Brit so apparently I know even less than you southerners :pac:

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791829#Comment_121791829

I ain't no southerner!

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791961#Comment_121791961

Hey

You started it :pac:

"Don't invoke NI. Apparently all you southern lot don't know anything about it."

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791814#Comment_121791814

If this was a possibility then why didn’t it happen anytime in the last 50 or so years ago when it was clear the wars in the region had all been decisively won by Israel. Egypt got the picture and left hostilities.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121791982#Comment_121791982

It should have been done but there wasn't the will for it, 30 years ago you heard of bombs dropping on Israel/Palestine and you thought meh because it didn't affect you, now we see it live and in HD on our personal devises, we see the effects it has on children, we see the damage done and understand it better and people (especially the younger generation) are against war especially when one side is dropping 1000lb bombs on residential areas killing and maiming innocent civilians.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121792008#Comment_121792008

Maybe other people have brighter ideas but I think the place is beyond hope. All deaths in conflict there since the mid 1970s have been completely in vain as the war was well won and lost by then. The fault for most of the atrocities committed falls on Israel but the fault on why the war hasn’t been settled decades ago falls on the Arab side.

and I think most people in Ireland marching for Palestine don’t really appreciate that or appreciate that there is really nothing to bring from our own experience in Northern Ireland to the situation in the Middle East. Not comparable.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121792059#Comment_121792059

That is not borne out by the reality though. Settlers are not stealing every inch of land they can get away with stealing because of some fault "on the Arab side". They are just doing it because they can. If the "Arabs" just accepted having their land stolen, it would not be the case that the Israelis would not do it, it would just be that we wouldn't hear about it.

There is no American Jewish person thinking "Well, I think I will go and steal a Palestinian farm because those lads wouldn't accept something in 1948. I mean, if they had accepted it, I'd just stay here in the US and not feel the need to steal it"

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121792059#Comment_121792059

So the Palestinians should have just accepted their lot in life? Should have accepted they will always be lesser beings compared to Israelis? should have accepted the illegal settlements and their loss of homes/land to settlers? Should just move on when another one of them gets murdered hy the IOF or settlers?

"don’t really appreciate that or appreciate that there is really nothing to bring from our own experience in Northern Ireland to the situation in the Middle East."

Of course we can compare especially when it comes to two sides working on a peaceful solution to a decades long conflict.