Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781990#Comment_121781990

"The only ones who are killing the civilians are the Israelis."

Well that isn't true - and that you believe it is shows that you're not so much interested in understanding what's really happening as in having your own opinions confirmed.

"a Palestinian boy named Muhammad al-Araja, who attempted to take food from a humanitarian aid truck, was shot dead by Hamas police."

https://Twitter.com/IhabHassane/status/1758576297721094648?s=20

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121783760#Comment_121783760

What IRA atrocities? I must have missed all the times they kidnapped Protestant babies and kept them hostage without the Red Cross ever being allowed to see them, purely because they were protestant. You people have no clue about Northern Ireland at all. If you'd been around at the time you'd have been in no doubt about how crazy all Northerners were generally, and how important Section 32 was. Now you've just jumped on a band wagon going the other way instead - the Sinn Fein narrative one. But that one's just as untrue as past groupthink down south about the north always was.

Like, when did the IRA run Derry, never mind Belfast?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121783963#Comment_121783963

I was asking someone who is a very big advocate of the IRA/Republicans how he squares the circle between Hamas and the Republican terrorists who's actions he has supported on here for years

Kidnapping (Hamas/IRA)

Killing innocent civilians (Hamas/IRA)

Suicide bombings (Hamas/IRA by proxy)

Indiscriminate bombing if innocent civilians (Hamas/Republicans/IRA)

I'd be interested yo know how he can support one terrorists grouo but be against a different terrorist group, weren't/aren't both fighting for the same thing, the removal of occupation forces?

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121783984#Comment_121783984

Is this Danzy you are referring to?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784022#Comment_121784022

No, Francie.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784022#Comment_121784022

That was my first guess as well.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121783934#Comment_121783934

Okay fair enough, Israelis though have killed 10k.

Iscreamkone

Still no surrender from Hamas/Palestine?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121783476#Comment_121783476

Fighting such a motivated enemy, in an urban setting, who have strategic and theological aims

did you mean the Israelis, aiming for greater Israel, while thumping Amalek quotes?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784155#Comment_121784155

Unless the IDF have a time machine, they are not going to fight the Amalek.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784195#Comment_121784195

Droll deflection gives away the game. Tell it to the government of Israel.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/

Your cognitive dissonance betrays you.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784126#Comment_121784126

More than that.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121783963#Comment_121783963

I grew up in the Bogside in the 80's. The provos ran the show, same in creggan and galliagh.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784298#Comment_121784298

Not officially though. And it was bad enough as it was. I know someone who was kneecapped for having thrown the "wrong" person out of a club in Shantallow where he was on the door. Justice, eh?

And now just imagine how things would have been if, on the strength of a plurality vote for Sinn Fein in a single election, the IRA had been handed the reins for Derry City Council, and more importantly, the funds that go with that, and - after first assassinating the SDLP and other nationalist opposition so there'd be no objections - had spent 15 years diverting large sums of that money into plans for destroying England.

What a utopia that would be. Imagine the state of the economy.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121783984#Comment_121783984

Fair enough, I hadn't paid attention to who you were responding to, and TBF I don't know really know that poster's views on Israel/Gaza.

I'm not an IRA supporter, but I do think that there are major differences all the same. Some of those IMO are really because the nationalist community would not have accepted IRA tactics of deliberate targeting of civilians, something which rarely ever happened (a couple of incidents like Kingsmill did occur, but as they generally did more harm to the IRA's reputation within the nationalist community than anything else, that actually proves my point.)

And there was just no equivalent of babies/small children being deliberately targeted because of their religion/ethnicity - that just didn't happen. The children killed at Omagh for example were mostly Catholic - and again, the revulsion at the deaths of children meant that that was the end of dissidents' attempts to keep going militarily (and not because the children were catholic).

Also, I don't think you can seriously call a "suicide by proxy" a suicide bomber. It's not suicide when the person getting blown up has been forced to carry the bomb, often because his family was being held hostage and threatened with them being killed instead. I'm not sure it's "better" but it's certainly more brainwashed when the foot soldiers are ready to blow themselves to bits. I suspect that where religion comes into it though. The IRA didn't have that aspect, despite being considered "catholic" especially by outsiders.

Iscreamkone

Lots of marching over the weekend- plenty of “from the river to the sea…”.

No calls for a Hamas/Palestine surrender though. Why not I wonder?

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784876#Comment_121784876

You're late to the party with your talking points. The lads moved on from conflating all Palestinians with Hamas weeks if not months ago. The river to the sea stuff has faded away over the last couple of weeks too. They seem to have mostly given up accusing everyone of anti-Semitism so if you were planning on using that next maybe reconsider.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784876#Comment_121784876

Because you're in here too busy complaining about other people protesting I imagine.

Why were you not out there walking the walk, big guy?

Overheal

"between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

if "from the river to the sea" is genocidal, so is Likud.

Timberrrrrrrr

Countries leaders finally telling the truth, we need more of this.

https://twitter.com/Megatron_ron/status/1759209168919986239?t=mmZ9ApamKX2-kU6CjNkxog&s=19

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121783693#Comment_121783693

"Leaves Gaza in control of Hamas"

And what exactly would they be controlling? Rubble piles, destroyed infrastructure, virtually no hospitals.

Gaza is a wasteland.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121783934#Comment_121783934

That's one death. Just that one or do you have more? You'll need at least another 34,999 to prove your point.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784876#Comment_121784876

Where you there?

dmcdona

Rafah genocide still on the cards.

Israel to blame for progress on release of hostages and hostage families threatened.

UNSC debate Tuesday.

Haaretz:

War cabinet minister Benny Gantz said that if Israel's hostages are not returned by Ramadan, "The world must know, and the leaders of Hamas must know" that the IDF will expand its fighting to the southern Gazan city of Rafah as well.

Jordanian Foreign Minister Ayman Safadi blamed PM Netanyahu for failing to advance a cease-fire deal that would lead to a 45-day pause in fighting in exchange for the release of remaining hostages.

Algeria has submitted a proposal for a cease-fire in Gaza to the UN Security Council, which will likely be discussed on Tuesday. The U.S., which has veto power, said that it would oppose the proposal.

The head of the Hostages and Missing Families Forum, political consultant Ronen Tzur, announced he was leaving his position, citing fears that his involvement would politicize the struggle to bring the hostages home. He also referenced "evidence" that some hostages' families had received threats when they visited the Knesset and met coalition members.

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785042#Comment_121785042

Good one.

dmcdona

Nearly 98,000 killed/wounded - which means the 100k mark is surpassed:

The Nasser Hospital in the southern city of Khan Yunis went out of action early on Sunday, the Hamas-controlled Health Ministry in Gaza told Reuters.

The Hamas-controlled Health Ministry in Gaza said that at least 28,985 Palestinians have been killed and 68,883 wounded since the war began.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785088#Comment_121785088

Imagine if Palestine set a deadline of Hannukah, there'd be no end of the cries of antisemitism.

Every day Israel tells us they view this as a religious crusade of theirs.

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/07/1211133201/netanyahus-references-to-violent-biblical-passages-raise-alarm-among-critics

dmcdona

The Netanyahu government unanimously approved a resolution rejecting any unilateral international recognition of a Palestinian state. "Such recognition, following the October 7 massacre, will award an immense and unprecedented prize to terrorism, and prevent any future peace agreement," said the resolution.

Brazilian President Lula da Silva said "what's happening in the Gaza Strip isn't a war, it's a genocide," and compared Israel's actions to "when Hitler decided to kill the Jews."

■ WEST BANK: Palestinian PM Shtayyeh said Russiahas invited Palestinian factions to meet in Moscow on February 26, adding that the Palestinian Authority was ready to engage with Hamas. "If Hamas is not, then that's a different story. We need Palestinian unity," Shtayyeh said, adding that Hamas needed to meet certain prerequisites including accepting the PLO's political platform and operating only "popular resistance."

A delegation of the Israeli Foreign Ministry will attend a hearing at The Hague on the legality of its occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, but will not actively participate in the proceedings.

The Biden administration is considering ways to financially support the Palestinian Authority, as Palestinian officials warn it may soon run out of funds, the Wall Street Journal reported.

The residents of the Palestinian village of Turmus Ayya in the West Bank reported that settlers entered the village during the night, set fire to vehicles and spray-painted hateful graffiti that read "Vengeance" and "Death to Arabs" on walls.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785030#Comment_121785030

Could you explain your thinking here please? Surely it's not a "we're allowed kill the same number as you" kind of thing? Especially when the people being killed are Gazan civilians by the Gazan police/military forces. Surely it depends on why the kid was shot dead?

The thing is, civilian deaths happen in war. There are rules about trying to minimise those, and if it turns out that Israel could have achieved their legitimate war aim of removing Hamas from power because of the October attacks without killing nearly so many civilians, then Israel will, quite rightly, be found guilty of committing war crimes and possibly even of attempted genocide.

(I don't believe the attempted genocide thing can possibly stick, but that's an aside here. War crimes - maybe. And if so, I have no problem saying everyone responsible should be punished severely. Again, an aside, but since you brought it in...)

But the point is that we don't decide that murders by criminals are unimportant because there's also a war going on nearby. Every single deliberate death matters. Despite the war. Surely that goes without saying? We didn't give up on non-political violence and killings in Northern Ireland just because of the Troubles, after all. What the British used to call ODCs, so I guess in some ways maybe they did agree with your take on it. Personally I don't agree.

If Hamas killed the teenager because Hamas, as the elected government and in charge of justice, were trying to distribute food fairly and he wanted to steal it from more deserving civilians, that would be harsh summary justice - but fair in the context.

If however they wanted to steal it from an aid agency for their soldiers, leaving the Gazan families it was intended for to go hungry, do you really think that would be a minor indiscretion, so long as they killed fewer of their own civilians in that way than Israel has at war? Seems to me that would actually show that Israel were, in the longer term, giving Gaza perhaps its only chance at a decent future by removing a murderous group like that from having that sort of life and death power over "their" citizens.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785215#Comment_121785215

"then Israel will, quite rightly, be found guilty of committing war crimes and possibly even of attempted genocide."

By who? By what court, that they actually recognize the legitimacy of?

If they were so sure they are doing nothing wrong they wouldn't decry the courts whose role it is to determine whether that's true.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/8/israel-to-tell-icc-it-does-not-recognise-courts-authority