Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Francie Barrett

Lots of people are quoting the Palestinian casualty numbers, but those come from Hamas, who would naturally want to inflate women and children deaths.

Who knows what the real number of dead is, but based on the above the Hamas claims make no sense.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

So you don't believe 10s of thousands have died? How many do you then believe have died? I haven't read of many nations disputing these figures.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

Historically they have been accurate. The US believe the figures are so high it warrants an immediate ceasefire, the figures are so high the ICJ is investigating a claim of genocide against Israel.

Even Israel has mentioned them in the context of saying 1 in 3 deaths are Hamas and also they have killed 10k Hamas fighters.

So either the figures are broadly accurate or everybody is lying including Israel.

The whole world have accepted the extremely high death toll of innocent lives, apart from you? Now that doesn't make sense.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864535#Comment_121864535

egypt isn't engaging in a blockade, it's israel who is engaging in a blockade.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

chances are that the number is actually higher then claimed, as we don't know how many people are buried under rubble.

remember whatever about hamas, israel are a proven lier on absolutely everything, so cannot be trusted either under any circumstance.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

Francie vs Reuters.

Good man.

Francie Barrett

Too many people to reply to above.

The only source for the number of Palestinian dead is from Hamas, the side who are fighting Israel. They are claiming that 70% of the 30,000 dead are women and children. Presumably the other 30% are men. Given that there are only 40k Hamas fighters (Gaza population is 2.2M), most of the men who are dying you'd expect to be non-combatants. The Hamas numbers suggest that only a tiny number of that 30k dead are fighters, maybe 1,000 or so.

What are the conclusions? Are the Israeli's sparing the Hamas fighters and targeting their women and children instead? Are the Hamas fighters hiding and letting the women and children be used as human shields?

The Hamas claims don't make sense.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867172#Comment_121867172

That's pretty much the jist of it. It's accepted that the Hamas figures are broadly accurate.

Why would the US be quoting them if they were extremely inaccurate? Aid agencies on the ground in Gaza don't seem to be questioning the figure. Very very few people are questing the civilian death toll. Why is this being rehashed?

The issue is the figures Israel provide for Hamas fighters killed. They say 10k, so as I mentioned before the math only works if Israel see any adult male as a Hamas member. Which judging by the way they indiscriminately shoot people including hostages, it may very well be the case. I honestly don't believe Israel have a clue how many actual Hamas fighters they have killed.

You don't have the ICJ agreeing to proceed with a genocide case on the back on a couple of civilian deaths.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864402#Comment_121864402

Two huge differences between Mariupol and Gaza:

1) Russia started that war and is thus responsible for its consequences, and Hamas started the war on the 7th of October.

2) The problem in Mariupol was that the city was surrounded in full by Russians, at the time the theatre was bombed cities like Kyiv and Lviv were relatively safe and AFAIK borders with other countries (e.g. Moldova, Romania, Poland etc) were open to Ukrainians at that point. By contrast, Israel is not stopping anyone from leaving the Gaza strip to go to Egypt for example. But whereas EU countries opened their borders to Ukrainians, Arab countries are doing SFA for Palestinians.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

^ this is modern day equivalent of Holocaust denial

Plutarch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866805#Comment_121866805

Not one Israeli will see the inside of a court. They can conduct all the investigations they want. The court was set up to protect the post WW2 liberal order of which Isreal is the jewel in the centre of the crown. Isreal could attack a US warship and the US wouldn't do anything about it. Blinken is effectively Israeli.

Francie Barrett

Hours after the hearing, however, Pentagon spokeswoman Sabrina Singh refuted Austin’s estimate of the deaths of women and children on the basis that it had come from the Gaza Ministry of Health rather than US intelligence.

“We cannot independently verify these Gaza casualty figures,” said Singh.

The Americans cannot verify the Palestinian claims

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867172#Comment_121867172

Reuters, dude.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867312#Comment_121867312

1) Not according to the Russian perspective coming out of the Kremlin. They are quite clear about the Ukrainian provocations. Which is just slightly more plausible than the "eradication of Hamas" excuses the zionists come out with

2) Israel surrounds most of Gaza by land and blockades it from sea. Nothing is allowed in or out without its say so.

We watch these Israeli spokespeople on TV blatantly lying through their teeth in interviews and claiming black is white. WE have posters on here that would give them a run for their money. Would you be another one blaming the Irish air force for the starving in Gaza?

Plutarch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867312#Comment_121867312

No. The difference is who is a friend and who is an enemy of the post WW2 order. Israel is a defacto 51st state.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867330#Comment_121867330

Absolutely non relevant to the discussion around the figures claimed by Hamas and those claimed by Israel.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867313#Comment_121867313

The money makes it all worthwhile though, but I do admit it's a pain to get Israeli shekels exchanged in Galway.

Plutarch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867380#Comment_121867380

Yes it is.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866635#Comment_121866635

Have you seen what's left of Gaza? The figures quoted are only for either confirmed or believed to be dead. Then theres the multiple thousands more missing or buried under the rubble. The Israelis can't bang on about a metro of tunnels for Hamas, flatten the place, then claim that the figures are wrong and at least whatever amount they decide are just men are equal to Hamas deaths while HAMAS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN THESE BLOODY TUNNELS.

Which one is it? It can't be both, can it? Are they in the tunnels or are they on the surface? Are the figures correct if they use a % of them to confirm Hamas deaths?

Just look at the place. Look at the famine. Look at the state of whatever is left of their healthcare service. You don't need numbers to be validated to know that the deaths are well into the tens of thousands and quite possibly in the upper end given everyone starving or buried under rubble.

Overheal

Ah ffs

https://www.mediaite.com/news/multiple-people-killed-after-being-hit-by-airdropped-aid-packages-in-gaza/

Frank Grimes

More of this weird fetishisation of Palestinian women's underwear, we can be rest assured that the "most moral army in world" are doing this for a good reason no doubt.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/1b9yenz/new_photos_of_israeli_soldiers_doing_this_emerge/

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867703#Comment_121867703

Pretty sure aid agencies warned against doing this for a range of reasons.

I think US would be better staying out of the middle east problems. It will always have a bad name there, trying to be mother Theresa is not going to change that. Part of the problem in Gaza is that you had young folks sitting around doing nothing, with aid being supplied by our tax money for years, and their population exploding. There's literally nothing there just desert and no work. It only took a few radical jihadis to set a spark to the madness that ensued. The only way forwrd is for Hamas to surrender and get rid of its guns. Let the good people of Gaza, rebuild their communities and create jobs opportunities so that it will have a population that's realistic for that area. The aid organisations should go take a hike, they just make the situation worse.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867370#Comment_121867370

Just one point to make, despite this tight control of Gaza, massive tunnel network(s) were built, and hundreds of thousands of missiles were stored in these tunnels. So the borders are more porous than people think.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864495#Comment_121864495

A "ceasefire" forces Israel to leave Hamas in place in Gaza. Israel has the right to go after and destroy Hamas. As for "negotiation for hostage releases" why should Israel have to negotiate with genocidal terrorists bent on their total annihilation? And while there's plenty of criticism of the US for giving Israel weapons to defend itself, but few posts criticising this also criticise Iran and their supply of weapons to Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis.

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868426#Comment_121868426

Have you considered a career in geopolitics with such insightful critiques of the situation

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868591#Comment_121868591

They would have had crude home-made weapons and missiles too.

They smuggled other weapons in, but likely over many years and not during wartime.

I don't think the average consumer on the street would have the ability to be smuggling food in or themselves out. The few that manage to get out are getting out emaciated. I wouldn't dismiss Israel's blockades as being anything like irrelevant to the issues the ordinary people are facing right now.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869023#Comment_121869023

Yes, they dug up water pipes, and converted them into mortars for one thing, but the explosives had to be "imported", and they fired 3'000 missiles in the 1st hours of the attack. The point remains, had Gaza been as sealed as is being claimed, Oct 7 could not have happened.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869388#Comment_121869388

The warheads Hamas used previously have also been salvaged unexploded bombs dropped by Israel. They will have plenty to salvage through in the future.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869388#Comment_121869388

Surely you recognise the difference between the ability of the general population to access things and the ability of organised groups to smuggle in specific items over time? One can't point to the likes of the Kinahans importing a tonne of cocaine and conclude that Ireland allows random citizens access to bring in a few kg whenever they want.

It may or may not be your intention, but you are trying to imply that there is no blockading or hindering of aid getting into Gaza. Even the US have (too late) stepped up with their plans for a temporary port.

Surely you are also aware of the previous flotillas which tried to break previous blockades? Including one example where the IDF summarily executed Turkish nationals trying to deliver humanitarian aid? That's accepted in a UN report btw. How would you explain why the IDF were executing foreign nationals in international waters for breaking a blockade that didn't exists? As I mentioned above, there were even instances where Irish nationals were kidnapped in international waters by the IDF