Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222033#Comment_122222033

Didn't Netanyahu defacto also refuse the peace deal.

Hamas hides in residential areas while Israel bombs residential areas and kills children by the thousands.

Hamas was elected once in 07 and since then they control the people, as you say a terrorist group. Meanwhile Netanyahu is re-elected 7 times and has always taken hostages and palestinian land. The Israeli people are complicit in what their country is doing.

Hamas need to be irrdicated. But any reasonable person, and I'm sure you would agree, Netanyahu is a greater terrorist, and by association so are the Israeli people, right ?

sock.rocker*

This peace deal was always just an excuse to continue bombing Palestine. How can Hamas agree to a peace deal that includes their destruction in it. Netenyahu was even against it initially so why was Biden coming out with it. The whole thing was bizarre.

And anyone who thinks the return of all hostages would lead to an immediate ceasefire is quite naive, considering Netenyahu has explicitly said that even if that happens, they will continue the war until Hamas is destroyed.

This isn't two normal countries signing a peace deal. It is Israel, who for decades has been expanding and killing Palestinians day in day out. It's not like they're going to stop this. Even this year, they're offering new incentives for people to move to the West Bank. Gaza has been under blockade for over a decade and it will still be under blockade.

ToweringPerformance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222092#Comment_122222092

An embarrassment to a once great nation.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222099#Comment_122222099

Don't you see the link… if hamas didnt hide in residential areas perhaps it wouldnt be necessary to bomb there. The only terrorists here are hamas. Israel existed there for thousands of years. This doesn't date to October 7th, or 1947, but thousands of years. Before islam or christianity even existed, there were jews in israel.

Your last line doesn't warrant any reply, simply acknowledging its existence and the ludicrous nature of it is enough.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222122#Comment_122222122

Hamas are terrorists. This is why they must be eradicated. Personally I'd prefer if they all got the Osama treatment.

sock.rocker*

You can't bomb buildings full of civilians because terrorists are using the building. If this has been normalised for you, you've been radicalised.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222265#Comment_122222265

Well as a pro Israeli you are never going to acknowledge that Israel engages in terrorism. What is collective punishment if its not terrorism, though. I suspect you will deny Israel has ever engaged in collective punishment

Also your assertion that releasing the hostages ends the war contradicts a lot of statements made by Bibi. Mark spoke of uncomfortable truths but ommitted one due to bias; Bibi doesn't really care about the Israeli hostages, his primary concern is staying in power. Even Joe Biden has finally admitted that.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222308#Comment_122222308

Oh sure we'll just let hamas continue there, sure, and they can keep on with October 7th attacks again. I'm sure that would have worked after 9/11

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222413#Comment_122222413

I'm not going to feed into your line of posting there. My family is of prussian and irish heritage, the prussian side moved here after ww2. I have no reason to be biased towards Judaism (if anything there would be a likelihood to be anti-jewish).

My statement about ending the war by releasing the hostages means that there would be a reason to accept the ceasefire if the hostages were released and hamas removed from power. Of course, the end of any war would be welcomed better than its continuation, but this will not end until Hamas are removed and hopefully the hostages are returned. Hopefully both, but I suspect that Israeli priority is the former first and the latter second. This is what the terrorists in hamas brought upon themselves with their actions on October 7th. Their attacks on the native jews have been going back millennia, so this didnt begin on Oct 7th, but that's what started this part of the conflict.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222518#Comment_122222518

You don't try and win a war by killing every single one of the enemy's soldiers. You go for strategic objectives. I can't believe this stuff has to be explained in 2024.

Israel got caught completely off guard yet was able to target hundreds of buildings every day somehow immediately. How exactly? Because they're using an AI system that operates like suspected Hamas member was in this building three years ago therefore bomb it.

Your false dilemma where all of these buildings have to be bombed or Hamas will continue with October 7th attacks is such an egregious logical fallacy. And unfortunately, you aren't using it to simply win an internet argument. You're using it to convince your own self that it's acceptable to indiscriminately bomb an entire people.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222518#Comment_122222518

you know what didn’t end terrorism after 9/11? Bombing fallujah.

23 years later and Al Qaeda still exists, the Taliban still exists, terrorism still exists. You cannot fight terror with terror.

sock.rocker*

The American response to 9/11 being used to justify Israel's response to October 7th is truly bizarre. Millions of people died, and more Americans are dead because of it. A country going wild for blood and revenge is such an obviously bad policy.

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222265#Comment_122222265

Israel have invaded Palestine, just like Hitler invaded countries or how Russia invaded Ukraine. Typically the bad guys are the invaders…that would be Israel. March in, bomb, shoot, kill. Take the land, when the locals fight back, their terrorists.

Before there was a recognised Israeli state there was Palestine, part of Palestine was gifted by USA & UK to form Israel. The Palestinians living on that land have been there for thousands of years, just like there have been Jewish people living there. There never was a Israel Jewish only state pre 1947. Israel haven't stayed within their borders, they continue to steal/rob/murder in their land grab goals. The Israeli people re-elect the govt that continue this terrorist agenda. Its why many people are now looking at Israel and it's people and re-classifying it as a terrorist state, and rightly so. By your standards Israel should be eradicated. Israel has the option to elect the govt they want, the Palestinians don't. If Israel would leave them alone, then Hamas would die.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222730#Comment_122222730

Look at the palestinian olympic team from 1936. Notice anything?
Or the israeli coins and artifacts discovered from before 0AD? In fact, there never was a state of palestine. There was a british colony from the end of WW1 until 1947 that was called the british mandate of palestine, however even that had a substantial jewish population. Before the british there was the ottoman empire, which had a province referred to as palestine, but again not a sovereign state. Before that there were various islamic dynasties and the christian crusades back to the time of the romans and greeks, where there was a state of israel.

Also important to note that Israel is not Jewish only, in fact it is the only secular state in the region. And the only state in the region where you can be any religion, gender, sexuality etc without fear of punishment or death.

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222850#Comment_122222850

Palestine, whether you like it or not exists, UK/USA carve off a piece of Palestine to form two states, the remaining Palestinian area objects and one piece - Israel is recognised by UK/USA and the other Palestine, isn't. Today 144 countries recognise it and that number continues to grow.

You correctly demonstrate that the local area is a Hodge podge of many people, Christian, Jew, Muslim. So why do Israeli Jewish people think its ok to murder everyone in Palestine and take their land, the Land grab has being going on since Israel was formed.

Ireland is a secular country, but we are rooted in Christianity. Its in our constitution, it controls our education system. In Israel its ok for a Jew outside of Israel to go to ocupied Palestine and take land, property.. all free. I've never heard of Israel offering this to an Muslim or a Christian ? Yes there are many types of people in Israel, but in its heart its Jewish.

Prior to recent events I would have mixed feelings for the territory, but the way Netanyahu is conducting himself that's firmly changed. If Israeli people don't stand up to him and oust him, then their hands are also covered in blood.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222850#Comment_122222850

 And the only state in the region where you can be any religion, gender, sexuality etc without fear of punishment or death.

keep drinking the Hasbara kool aid.

https://youtu.be/YhMgAVcD6gM?si=g4kZ9z_6qL2I7V-2

https://youtu.be/4G2p3_wa2d0?si=Z0GIDexGPy3Wfams

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-rights-office-criticises-israel-over-deaths-500-palestinians-west-bank-2024-06-04/

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israel-killed-five-times-many-palestinians-2022-it-killed-same

Does the sleight of hand come from it being the West Bank and not the legally recognized borders of Israel?

well it happens in Israel proper too

https://www.timesofisrael.com/244-arab-community-members-said-killed-in-2023-violence-more-than-double-2022-toll/amp/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66594068.amp

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/09/08/middleeast/israel-arab-citizens-crime-mime-intl

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230530-587-arabs-have-been-killed-in-4-and-a-half-years-due-to-police-inaction-in-occupied-palestine/amp/

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/arab-family-five-shot-dead-crime-rates-israel-soar-2023-09-27/

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-734812
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-30/ty-article/.premium/anti-lgbtq-violence-spiked-in-israel-during-judicial-overhaul-protests-report-finds/0000018f-c87e-da41-a9cf-d97ef2c50000
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/1679242629-israel-5-fold-increase-in-cases-of-lgbtphobia-in-public-spaces-report
Etc

sock.rocker*

Same posters, same nonsense. Four years later.

ELM327's logic back then was that you can't suppress Palestine because it doesn't exist. Part of his reasoning for it not existing was Ireland not recognising it. So that's one good thing that's changed.

His belief is basically that Israel is a secular state and and any criticism must be because of religious reasons. How very Schrodinger.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222099#Comment_122222099

Hamas was elected once in 07 and since then they control the people, as you say a terrorist group. Meanwhile Netanyahu is re-elected 7 times and has always taken hostages and palestinian land. The Israeli people are complicit in what their country is doing.

If that logic is followed, are the Palestian people also complicit in what Hamas are doing and did? They still enjoy a lot of support. The West Bank cant hold elections because they are afraid of the results.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223238#Comment_122223238

The average Israeli is more complicit in the actions of Hamas than the average Gazan.

Less than 10% of Gazans alive today voted for Hamas. Half of Gazans are children and the last vote was 18 years ago. Meanwhile, Israelis keep voting for governments which allow billions to be funneled into Gaza so that Hamas can stay in power. They do this so that Palestine can't form a state. They want Hamas there.

Does the average Gazan have any say in all of this? No. The average Israeli? Absolutely.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222730#Comment_122222730

October 7th Hamas invaded Israel that led to the current situation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223344#Comment_122223344

Hamas is strongly supported by Palestinians

https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-soaring-support-for-hamas-in-west-bank-as-90-say-abbas-should-resign/

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223504#Comment_122223504

”I was born on October 7th, the history of the conflict began on October 7th”

pull another. This one is used. Someone just showed a post from 2020 showing this well predates the 7th.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223550#Comment_122223550

Even if those numbers were reliable, it doesn't change my point. Israel controls water, food, electricity, and money into Gaza. Israel wants Hamas in power there, make sure they stay in power, and so, they control the politics too.

Israelis vote for this because they see cost of peace as being too high. Gazans cannot effect any change while Israelis can. Polls show Israelis blame Netenyahu for October 7th, and they voted for him.

If at some point in the future, there is peace and a two-state solution, it will be because Israelis made it happen, not Gazans. All of it is in the hands of the Israeli voter.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222518#Comment_122222518

Would you think it was a legitimate target for Hamas to blow up an Israeli School full of parents and children if Hamas knew that an IDF commander was attending their child's school play in the auditorium?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223689#Comment_122223689

You mean this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vCWMBvxWKL0&pp=ygUaaGFtYXMgc3VtbWVyIHRyYWluaW5nIGNhbXA%3D

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cD2FezhJgqA&pp=ygUaaGFtYXMgc3VtbWVyIHRyYWluaW5nIGNhbXA%3D

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=14Nt8U61XXA

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223806#Comment_122223806

I'm quite sure that isn't what he meant at all. Intellectual dishonesty does not further the debate.

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223238#Comment_122223238

I explained, Israel have had plenty of elections and chances to change its leadership. They haven't, in a democratic country with fair elections. If that Govt kills tens of thousands, kidnaps thousands and steals land, the Israel people are responsible. The people in the west bank elected the Palestine Authority, to the best of my knowledge they haven't killed even 1 baby. Even when Israel controlled 60% of it, it now must control 90%.

Hamas are a terrorist group and will act in Gaza, west bank, Israel and anywhere else. They were elected 18yrs ago and since they they act like a dictatorship. Do you think the Palestinian people are responsible for what Hamas do ? if so can you explain that to me.

Don't forget when Hamas were down and nearly out, Israel gave billions to Hamas to prop it up and prevent a unified Palestine and a 2 state solution. Hamas are the terrorist they are today, Because of Israeli funding. Takes one to know one I presume.

But yes Hamas will prob grow now, why wouldn't they when Palestinian peoples children, siblings, parents are being murdered.

scottser

Israel has no democratic credentials right now. It is in a self-declared war and operates under an emergency war cabinet, which concentrates authority under Netenbastard and Gallant. It's going to stay that way to keep them out of jail and in charge.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222850#Comment_122222850

Any chance Pro-Israeli supportes could stop posting absolute guff when it comes to history. When the British backed the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine with the Balfour declaration in 1917, the Jewish population of what became mandatory Palestine was 10%. That is not a substantial minority. It increased thereafter because well, the British had promised them a state, encouraged and protected European settlers who moved to the region post WW1, the whole reason for the creation of mandatory Palestine. By 1948, the Jewish population was 33%, but they held only 6-8% of the land and apart from one or two towns, had no majority anywhere in Mandatory Palestine, but under the UN partition plan gained over 60% of the land of mandatory Palestine.

The common thread running through all the decisions made regarding Palestine, whether Zionism itself, the Balfour declaration, Sykes-Picot or the UN partition plan, all were made by outsiders and none took into consideration the wishes of the actual people who mzde up the democratic majority in Mandatory Palestine. If you believe in democracy and the rights of self-determination, the whole underlying problem is easy to see.

Yes Palestine never existed as a state, but the Arabs in Palestine did not want a Palestinian state post WW1, they wanted a pan-Arab state based on Greater Syria(Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan). The Arabs came into WW1 on the promise that they would be granted such a state, but the British gaslit them the whole way and Sykes-Picot split the region into the various mandates, again putting the interests of Britain/France ahead of the native population. The Palestinians started to seek their own state once they realised a pan-Arab state was not an option.

As for the oft trotted out guff of there being an Israeli state 2000 years previously. There is no other people in the World who got to create a state on the territory of another people on the basis that their ancestors lived there 2000 years previously, whilst simply ignoring the wishes of the native population. It is the most asinine of asinine arguments.

batman75

Looks like Israel is in trouble in the north. Hezbollah are ratcheting up their attacks. It seems to be slowly dawning on the Israeli public that Netanyahu doesn't care about the hostages in Gaza. Only his political survival motivates him now. The longer he survives politically the more he kicks his legal troubles in the distance.

If Netanyahu was smart he would evacuate all troops from Gaza immediately and allow the area to be governed by Hamas or another elected Palestinian body. Israel should be made pay for the reconstruction of Gaza given that it obliterated it. No Israeli ambassador should be allowed back into Ireland until such time as Gaza, The West Bank are free from Israeli interference and until those Arabs who live in Israel are afforded equal rights under the constitution. Sadly Israel is an apartheid state. We have been fed the myth that Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222850#Comment_122222850

Palestine is as old as Israel and vice versa if you want. Modern Israel reflects little of what ancient Israel is it was too.