Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Heighway61

Humanity is so far down the rabbit hole that we can never find a way out. All exits are blocked. We will keep digging until it collapses in in us.

______

Parents labelling their children's limbs:

Yolande Knell

BBC Middle East correspondent

In a shelter in Khan Younis, Ali Daba ties purple and black bracelets onto the wrists of some of his nine children. But they are not for decoration, they are meant to identify them in case they are killed in an Israeli air strike.

"It’s just in case something happens," he explains.

"I've seen bodies ripped apart. If they are in pieces this way, I will recognise them from the bracelets."

In a sign of parents' fears, in the past week, social media videos and images show how a trend has developed in Gaza to write children's names on their limbs.

One recent chilling picture shows several small bodies laid out, apparently in a Gaza hospital morgue, each child with a trouser leg pushed up to show their name inked onto their skin.

Doctors explain that some children brought from crushed buildings have been left unrecognisable by their injuries. Many live babies are also brought into hospitals without any relatives to identify them.

In some cases, infants have been given numbers instead. Already last week, Shifa Hospital in Gaza City was using triple digits.

(Can't link, part of live newsfeed)

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283250#Comment_121283250

According to him Hamas are not a Terrorist organisation ,but then again the man had thousands detained without trial, tortured and raped in many cases and refuses to recognise the rights of the Kurdish people to a homeland,and calls Kurds terrorists .

He can can speak!

brickster69

Libyan parliament calls for exports of oil and gas to be stopped to countries supporting Israel. Hopefully others in the region like Saudi, Iran, Iraq, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait and Algeria don't follow suit.

https://twitter.com/alwasatengnews/status/1717197340014952629

TheValeyard

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1717212648218009615

I'd say Bibi getting ready to roll into Gaza??

Also, residents living near Gaza ordered to bomb shelters until further notice.

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1717208407927586830

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283219#Comment_121283219

From reading a bit about this story, my view is there was wrong on both sides. She is a fool for making those comments and not expecting backlash or consequences, especially on LinkedIn where it literally lists your current employers. If you have chosen to state your employer on your profile, you are essentially posting under the name of your employer. If you want to be contentious, don't list your employer.

However, according to the Irish Times, Wix created an external employee group chat to "support Israel's narrative" on its internal messaging app Slack. It encouraged employees to “join a company initiative to create videos and creative campaigns” to “make an impact on global perception" of the Israel-Gaza war. That sounds a lot like propaganda to me and as it was done on a company app, it was authorised by the company or they are at least complicit in allowing it to happen, and therefore accountable.

If the company was directly, or indirectly, encouraging employees to take a side, then they have a hard case to win should an employee choose to take the other side. If they said no commenting on it full stop, then they would be in a much stronger position. The fact is they urged employees to post but took offence when the posting was not in the direction they wanted.

If she takes a WRC case, I would be fairly certain she will get a payout.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283227#Comment_121283227

The alternative to that, bombing whole families, to expediently neutralize the tunnel underneath hopefully. that's in the calculation. That's good. /s

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283321#Comment_121283321

Which government, there's currently two in Libya

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283250#Comment_121283250

Pure whataboutery. Sweden isn't within 2,000 miles of this conflict.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283254#Comment_121283254

...

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283344#Comment_121283344

Those are the rules of war, what is allowed and what isn't. The war crime in this case may actually have been committed by Hamas, as using civilians as shields for military use is equivalent to taking them hostage. What is worse in this case is that they are inflicting it on their own.

Anyway, I go back to a point I made earlier, the quickest way to ending this is releasing the hostages.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283273#Comment_121283273

Ad hominem.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

You want to dive into the law so they have a long, cited read for you.

TheValeyard

Bibi might be announcing this..

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1717216338635075817

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283348#Comment_121283348

We can distinguish multiple governments in a country tangential to this conflict but not that Hamas does not represent Palestine, that there is a west bank and gaza, the PNA, etc. so therefore that all palestinian flegs are Hamas flegs?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283371#Comment_121283371

Those are the rules of war, what is allowed and what isn't. 

I've got a golden tiiiicket

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AicW3Xp9EM

One war crime is never a golden ticket to another.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283382#Comment_121283382

That thesis is based on the presumption that Israel is in full control of all the territory i.e that Gaza is a part of Israel.

"Two primary groups live today in Israel and the OPT: Jewish Israelis and Palestinians. One primary sovereign, the Israeli government, rules over them."

As a result, from a different perspective, it also backs up the position that Israel is not committing any war crime under international law. According to Human Rights Watch then, as there is only one sovereign nation, there is no international conflict and the rules of war, and consequential accusations of war crimes do not apply.

To go back to North Korea, who I have used for illustrative purposes several times, it is not a war crime under international law for North Korea to starve or subjugate or bomb or kill its own citizens as there is no international aspect. Of course, there may well be human rights law issues, but they are different to the longstanding international conventions about war.

Which thesis do you hold to? Is it an internal conflict or an international one?

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283220#Comment_121283220

Easy. The response is to light up the ammo dump in a dense urban environment, because that's where the ammo is. If the ammo were somewhere else, the somewhere else would be lit up. It takes more than fifteen minutes to relocate an ammo dump. It doesn't take more than fifteen minutes to clear a building of people, so the roof-knocking, for example, would arguably meet the legal requirements.

The requirement is to try to minimize civilian casualties. The requirement is not to try to minimize civilian casualties even if there's a particularly increased military risk which results from it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283409#Comment_121283409

I never said that one war crime is a golden ticket to another. Strawman argument is a sign you've lost the plot.

Multipass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283254#Comment_121283254

What kool aid have you been drinking?

https://news.sky.com/video/israel-palestinians-in-west-bank-celebrate-hamas-infiltration-12978858

Great bunch of lads these Palestinians

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283420#Comment_121283420

You had less than 8 minutes with that 137 pages APA-cited report before you wrote this sophistry dismissing it wholecloth, doing a bit of cherrypicking etc.

I'll leave you there. It's there to digest in your own time, I've satisfied the burden of proof asked for in this regard.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283422#Comment_121283422

Easy. The response is to light up the ammo dump in a dense urban environment

No, that's bullheaded quite frankly.

The whole point of Iron Dome was highroading Gaza by drying them out of their missiles without blowing up markets full of people because you think an ammo dump is under there (IDF: trust us bro).

https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2023/10/24/us-agrees-to-send-two-iron-dome-batteries-to-israel/

^ that bar none is the greatest minimization of civilian casualties, is it not? Secondary to that, why bust the building, bust the roads with tunnels leading to the alleged dump, then the ammo is useless because it is inaccessible.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283420#Comment_121283420

You know you really hold the moral high ground when the best defence of Israel you can come up with is that they're not any different to North Korea.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282799#Comment_121282799

Anyone under the age of 35 right now did not vote for Hamas, so while almost half voted for them 17 years ago that doesn't equate to them having the "support of the majority of Palestinians" it just means 17 years ago they got voted into power in Gaza (West bank is also Palestinian people, they didn't vote for Hamas) so no they didn't get support from the majority of Palestinians.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283459#Comment_121283459

When analysing any piece of research, go first to the underlying assumptions and if they are flawed or irrelevant, there is no need to go any further.

If someone is writing a paper on space travel and starts by assuming that the first law of thermodynamics does not apply, why would you waste your time reading the rest? On this piece, I got as far as the part where the document made clear that it viewed Israel as including the Palestinian territories (a false construct that it needed to get to its conclusion by the way) which had the secondary impact of rendering any conclusions on the rules of war as immaterial as the current conflict became internal rather than international.

If you don't understand my reasoning and logic, let me know and I will try and explain more clearly. If you do, attack the logic of the argument rather than how little time it took me to demonstrate the speciousness of the point.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282898#Comment_121282898

Good to see at least a good few people on this thread have an understanding of what international law means. Getting a bit tired of the word murder being used on every single page of this thread. Terrible as civilian deaths in Gaza are, it's not murder, folks. Deal with it.

The one thing I disagree with yourself and some others is that I feel the hostage situtation makes no difference. It makes no difference in the status of the attack in terms of international law and proportionality. As long as Hamas operates from within civilian populations and uses human shields (Palestinians or hostages), Israel has all the justification it needs.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283471#Comment_121283471

I am not looking to the moral high ground, I am looking to the legal high ground.

I have ended several of my posts with the point that a legal defence of Israeli actions does not equate to a moral or other defence. Do I have to keep doing that?

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283398#Comment_121283398

How nice that somewhere among the thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians, women, children and babies that Israel has slaughtered, that their reign of terror managed to take out an actual legitimate target. Definitely worth a press conference.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283481#Comment_121283481

It's fine to just say you went in to with a bias and wanted to confirm a bias. The first source you ad hominemed and the 2nd 137 page source you rushed to write a cherrypick in less than 8 minutes that confirms what you were already attempting to argue: the negative, that Israel could not possibly be committing war crimes, see no evil speak no evil.

That's not very logical but like I said, I'm leaving it there, further sophistry would be a waste.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283485#Comment_121283485

Fair enough, you accept that it's entirely morally wrong and you're just trying to find legal technicalities to justify the continued massacring of civilians. Got it.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283259#Comment_121283259

So you can do anything you want as long as it's against a non state actor, come off it. I'll ask again, what the appropriate international law if they are not technically warcrimes

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283488#Comment_121283488

No bias, just a cold analysis of international law. If Israel is committing apartheid within its own boundaries, then it cannot be committing war crimes under international law for international conflict.

However, what your links have demonstrated to me is something that I hadn't quite realised before, which is the extent that many actors go to try and pin any sort of blame on Israel for defending itself. No wonder the country remains so paranoid. The cherrypicking and intermingling of different international laws and the changing of underlying assumptions by numerous non-state actors, all contrived to find a way to accuse Israel of something is eye-opening.