Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318746#Comment_121318746

You've tried this repeatedly and I'm going to call you out on it every time I see it.

The conflict did not begin on Oct 7th and it is entirely disingenuous to suggest so.

Continuing to do this proves you know Israel is responsible for illegal and unjustifiable acts and trying to corral the focus to a single act of retaliation (barbaric as it was) is blatantly misrepresenting the facts.

And all of that is outside of the fact that Israel's response has been equally barbaric, disproportionate and counter to international law.

Shame on you and the others gleefully cheering an active genocide.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318819#Comment_121318819

Look at the language from the UN in your own post

"The UN said that Hamas’s indiscriminate killing ......... IS a crime under international humanitarian law.

The UN also said that Israel MAY be committing the war crime of collective punishment"

As I have said repeatedly, absolutely no doubt that Hamas has committed war crimes, and is continuing to do so, considerable doubt over whether Israel is doing so. Your link actually supports my points.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318842#Comment_121318842

Just pointing out the international law realities.

I have consistently stated that my observations on the international law points should not be taken as a moral endorsement of Israeli actions, just that in my opinion, they have acted within the parameters of international law.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318801#Comment_121318801

I don't.

They could target individuals on a micro level, training sites with bombs, leaders with special forces and supporters through UN enforced sanctions (if they didn't only defecate on the UN).

They are applying categogical collective punishment and are doing nothing at this point but creating future combatants who have been traumatized by what is happening now.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318843#Comment_121318843

Both sides are violating international law. If you dont see that, you are deliberately being stubborn. Ok, lets hear from an Irish expert in Bird Law.

Ruth FitzGerald SC: International humanitarian law in the conflict between Israel and Hamas | Irish Legal News

Article 49 of the Fourth Convention provides that individual, or mass, forcible transfer, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, “regardless of their motive”.

Proportionality

The scale of the bombing by both Israel — on 12 October 2023 Israel said it had dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza in six days — and Hamas is such that it is hard to see how the rules in connection with proportionality are being met. These rules require an individual analysis of each target of a bombing. There is simply not time in the bombing that is occurring for this to be achieved.

Article 55 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power, to the fullest extent of the means available to it, “to ensure food and medical supplies to the population. It should, in particular, bring the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate”.

Collective punishment

Common Article 33 provides that collective punishment is a war crime. Collective punishment is a penalty imposed on a group for acts allegedly carried out by members of the group and applies to international and non-international armed conflicts.

Contrary to its duty under Article 55, the act of Israel in cutting off water, electricity, food, and fuel to the population of Gaza punishes the entire population of Gaza for the acts of Hamas — is a collective punishment — as the objective of the siege is that of destroying Hamas.

Article 58 of Additional Protocol I requires parties, to the maximum extent feasible, to “avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas”. The rule applies in non-international conflicts under customary international law. The population density in Gaza of 5,751 per square kilometre (just slightly greater than that of Greater London).

Allowing third-party aid

Article 61 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power to agree relief schemes for the population of an occupied territory if it is inadequately supplied.

That Article goes on to provide, in addition, that all Contracting Parties shall endeavour to permit the transit and transport, free of charge, of relief consignments on their way to occupied territories. The question then arises as to whether Israel, in controlling the borders of Gaza and failing to provide safe transit to aid agencies, has done so for security reasons or in support of its siege.

No quarter given

Article 41 of Additional Protocol II prohibits an order that there should be no survivors. Israel’s threat to destroy Hamas could be viewed as a breach this prohibition. Declaring that no quarter will be given is also a war crime under Article 89(2) of the Rome Statute.

Protecting hospitals

Article 19 of the First Convention provides that medical facilities shall not be attacked in any circumstances, but shall at all times be respected and protected. It goes on to provide that the responsible authorities shall ensure that those facilities are, so far as possible, situated where attacks against military objectives do not imperil their safety.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318808#Comment_121318808

Not at all just making the obvious observation that getting in bed with crazy Islamists leads to bad outcomes not just for your neighbours but for yourself.

Do you disagree with assessment that embracing ISIS like ideologies is not something that normal people should do?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318867#Comment_121318867

I will stick with the UN link you provided already which supports my position. Hamas IS commiting war crimes, Israel MAY be committing war crimes.

I have also produced numerous articles and links which point to the opposite conclusions to Ruth Fitzgerald about Israel, which only demonstrates the level of doubt. For example, much of her analysis relies on the definition of Israel as an Occupying Power, something which is contested and is not settled law.

On the other hand, there isn't a single serious argument anywhere that Hamas are innocent of war crimes. Surely, even you can see the difference between an unarguable position and a debatable argument?

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318810#Comment_121318810

Oh they clearly are but unlike most posters I am not approaching this clusterfuck like some sort of a soccer game where one has to pick a side.

Both sides are worse than the other with both Palestinian and Israeli innocent civilians dying because one side embraced crazy ISIS grade Islamism and the other side is way out there on the far right now.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318855#Comment_121318855

The Geneva convention prohibits the application of collective punishment.

That is what is being applied now.

This is is why the comparisons with the troubles and the querying of hypothetical British responses on communities in Northern Ireland. And each time Israel supporters dismiss such hypotheticals, it's an indication they realize how disproportionate that would be.

And yet here we are, reading people supporting the fact that a couple hundred kids will not be alive next week after they screamed about the barbarism of Hamas killing children.

It's completely unjustifiable and one of the most depressing observations of the Human race I've seen in my lifetime.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318894#Comment_121318894

The UN have to say may! They cannot be judge and jury. The ICC are the only ones that can prosecute. And you know that!!! You are grasping at straws now. The level of doubt now is it... :)

I hit Save way too early. Here it is again.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both sides are violating international law. If you dont see that, you are deliberately being stubborn. Ok, lets hear from an Irish expert in Bird Law.

Ruth FitzGerald SC: International humanitarian law in the conflict between Israel and Hamas | Irish Legal News

Article 49 of the Fourth Convention provides that individual, or mass, forcible transfer, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, “regardless of their motive”.

Proportionality

The scale of the bombing by both Israel — on 12 October 2023 Israel said it had dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza in six days — and Hamas is such that it is hard to see how the rules in connection with proportionality are being met. These rules require an individual analysis of each target of a bombing. There is simply not time in the bombing that is occurring for this to be achieved.

Article 55 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power, to the fullest extent of the means available to it, “to ensure food and medical supplies to the population. It should, in particular, bring the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate”.

Collective punishment

Common Article 33 provides that collective punishment is a war crime. Collective punishment is a penalty imposed on a group for acts allegedly carried out by members of the group and applies to international and non-international armed conflicts.

Contrary to its duty under Article 55, the act of Israel in cutting off water, electricity, food, and fuel to the population of Gaza punishes the entire population of Gaza for the acts of Hamas — is a collective punishment — as the objective of the siege is that of destroying Hamas.

Article 58 of Additional Protocol I requires parties, to the maximum extent feasible, to “avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas”. The rule applies in non-international conflicts under customary international law. The population density in Gaza of 5,751 per square kilometre (just slightly greater than that of Greater London).

Allowing third-party aid

Article 61 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power to agree relief schemes for the population of an occupied territory if it is inadequately supplied.

That Article goes on to provide, in addition, that all Contracting Parties shall endeavour to permit the transit and transport, free of charge, of relief consignments on their way to occupied territories. The question then arises as to whether Israel, in controlling the borders of Gaza and failing to provide safe transit to aid agencies, has done so for security reasons or in support of its siege.

No quarter given

Article 41 of Additional Protocol II prohibits an order that there should be no survivors. Israel’s threat to destroy Hamas could be viewed as a breach this prohibition. Declaring that no quarter will be given is also a war crime under Article 89(2) of the Rome Statute.

Protecting hospitals

Article 19 of the First Convention provides that medical facilities shall not be attacked in any circumstances, but shall at all times be respected and protected. It goes on to provide that the responsible authorities shall ensure that those facilities are, so far as possible, situated where attacks against military objectives do not imperil their safety.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318902#Comment_121318902

Collective punishment

Common Article 33 provides that collective punishment is a war crime. Collective punishment is a penalty imposed on a group for acts allegedly carried out by members of the group and applies to international and non-international armed conflicts.

Contrary to its duty under Article 55, the act of Israel in cutting off water, electricity, food, and fuel to the population of Gaza punishes the entire population of Gaza for the acts of Hamas — is a collective punishment — as the objective of the siege is that of destroying Hamas.

brickster69

It must be right even the US used self defense as a reason for attacking Syria the other week for attacks on the bases in Syria that they are illegally occupying. Rules for thee but not for me.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318813#Comment_121318813

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-conviction-west-bank-attack-1.5722948

Thankfully, Israel is a democracy with a functioning judiciary. The last government is despicable and tried to interfere with that and/or downplay the issues, we can agree on that. What we can't agree on is the degree of issues. Your narrative (taken from certain groups with an agenda) is exaggerated.

Fortunately, I have Jewish contacts who have both Palestinian and Jewish contacts in Israel. Nothing is black and white. Reality is never exclusively black and white. Your narrative of evil oppressive Israel is false.

Yes, last few years have seen many alarming incidents on the WB, you're not the only one to critise that. Israeli opposition and NGOs also critise that. There's no pan-Israeli conspiracy that you're alluding to - that the level Israel is oppressing yada yada. Now, has it occurred to you that the issues on WB could've been a response to the last 15 years of Hamas attacks as well as security issues in both Gaza and WB? Probably didn't. Israel is always the primary cause, right?

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318756#Comment_121318756

No the two state solution proposed at camp David decades ago.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318830#Comment_121318830

You do understand, although it's quite possible that you don't, that it is possible to be anti Israeli bombardment of Palestinians and also anti the actions of hamas, tell me that you can at least grasp that much.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318866#Comment_121318866

Your suggestion is fantasy and defeatism. Nothing else to discuss. Good that's clarified.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318925#Comment_121318925

Why are the Arab friends who border and used to own this land in Gaza not supplying any of this?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318912#Comment_121318912

Your own link disproves your point. The UN have said Hamas IS committing war crimes while Israel MAY be committing war crimes, this is from your own link yet you turn around and say that the UN have to say may!!! Comical Ali territory as I said before, where you are walking back on things you already wrote in stone.

As for Article 19, and protecting hospitals, you are completely missing the point. Here is the full text:

"Fixed establishments and mobile medical units of the Medical Service may in no circumstances be attacked, but shall at all times be respected and protected by the Parties to the conflict. Should they fall into the hands of the adverse Party, their personnel shall be free to pursue their duties, as long as the capturing Power has not itself ensured the necessary care of the wounded and sick found in such establishments and units.

The responsible authorities shall ensure that the said medical establishments and units are, as far as possible, situated in such a manner that attacks against military objectives cannot imperil their safety."

The second paragraph is key to consideration. This must be read in conjunction with Article 8 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court which defines war crimes (and I have linked to many times before):

1. "Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives;

When you read the two provisions together, it is clear that where a hospital is being used as a military HQ, or the military HQ is in a tunnel under the hospital, the "responsible authorities", in this case Hamas, have failed in their Geneva Convention obligations to protect the hospital as they have imperiled the safety of the hospital, and as set out in the ICC Statutes, it is not a war crime to attack the hospital. Similar provisions apply to refugee camps.

Think about it, if this weren't so, and you were correct, all the Ukrainians needed to do to stop the Russian invasion was to set up mobile hospitals across the main roads and the Russian tanks wouldn't have been able to roll over them. The Ukrainians didn't do that, because they were mindful of their obligations under Article 19 not to put hospitals into danger. Hamas, well, they don't care about anyone, not even their own people, in their mad bloodrush to eliminate all the Jews.

Now, similar discussions can be held about all the other points you raised, some of them complete red herrings, but I will only get further personal insults if I demolish your position any further.

Finally, a reminder once again, demonstrating that Israel are not in breach of international law and not committing war crimes, does not amount to a moral endorsement of their actions, merely showing that the hyperbole generated on here and on Irish media is inaccurate and misplaced.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318938#Comment_121318938

And rejected by Palestinians.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318945#Comment_121318945

Sure, let's just kill 1000's of innocents instead.

And in a couple months we can revert to talking about how the Israeli intelligence bodies, special forces and military are the best trained, most equipped and most capable on the planet.

Shameful dismissal of a less homicidal path forward and invalidates any concern expressed for the victims of Oct 7th.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318967#Comment_121318967

Gaza is under the same blockade from Israel, that South Korea is under from North Korea. In fact, South Korea has an even worse blockade as it only has a land border with one country, while Gaza also has a land border with Egypt, from where all of that could be supplied if Egypt allowed.

onlymeself

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318967#Comment_121318967

Israel are not letting anyone supply anything.

In fact, they have hit the Rafah crossing, (where aid has been building up) with missiles many times now.

McGiver

AI enhanced disinformation gone wrong...

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318999#Comment_121318999

Why don't you respond to each of the Ruth FitzGerald's points and tell her where she is wrong. I laid them out twice for you. Go on, show us where she is wrong and stop muddying the waters. She quoted each article and gave her opinion. Show where she is wrong. Even the red herrings 😉

Here is Ruth's CV by the way.

Law Library | Ruth A FitzGerald SC

Specialises in International Criminal Law and Human Rights.

Oh and Amnesty, Human Rights, International Red Cross are wrong too? You never responded to those lines.

Diminish away please. Excuse merchant. Show us where she is wrong.

Ruth FitzGerald SC: International humanitarian law in the conflict between Israel and Hamas | Irish Legal News

Law Library | International humanitarian law | Applied to the conflict between Israel and Hamas.

McGiver

Iranian crackpot dictator has taken up Tweeting. Not sure it's gonna work.

https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/status/1720197808970436719?t=lKxykagK5E6OMSBgDPCjsw&s=19

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319017#Comment_121319017

I was talking up to October

Why was it Israel who Hamas vowed to destroy supplying these not fellow Arabs who seem to get away with a lot in these discussions

Why was Hamas being the so called elected government not supplying its people and busy building missiles and training Islamist nutcases

How do you have a two state solution when one side does not even bother to run the bits of land it already has?

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319015#Comment_121319015

This nonsense again. Israel have imposed a sea blockade on Gaza in addition to blockading its land border with Gaza. South Korea has functioning ports and airports. It's land border is irrelevant.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319025#Comment_121319025

I already explained how and why she is wrong on Article 19, I have also explained how much of her analysis rests on the definition of Occupying Power which is disputed.

As for the lobby groups, they are lobby groups, anything they say should be taken with a grain of salt. There isn't a single government or country in the world that Amnesty approve of.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319039#Comment_121319039

Are you telling us if a UN or even a coalition of Arab countries who are getting upset led column of trucks carrying aid with journalists and cameras trained on them and tried to cross from Egypt that Israel will bomb it?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319040#Comment_121319040

Please take your time to critique everything and prove all the breaches of international law are in her head. There are many of them listed.

Please prove that she is wrong on every heading. You attempted one so far.

Ruth FitzGerald SC: International humanitarian law in the conflict between Israel and Hamas | Irish Legal News

I will be back at 3pm, so do take your time. There are several headings to cover.