Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570433#Comment_121570433

No it’s Hamas’ fault for attacking civilians including babies on Oct 7th and threatening to carry out more such attacks until Israel no longer exists.

Yoir attempt to make my position out to be a racist one is ironic. Hamas commit pogroms against Jews.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570520#Comment_121570520

I know. People forget about the real victims of the conflict. All this RSI from repeatedly hitting the "launch" buttons.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570232#Comment_121570232

It was only 5 years ago Israel was bringing Hamas suitcases of money from Qatar.

The Palestinian people may have voted for Hamas back in 2006, but there's no arguing that Israel helped support Hamas and help keep them in power up to at least 2018.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570433#Comment_121570433

I suppose in your view Hamas bears no blame - despite being the government of Gaza - for constantly attacking Israel and giving it legitimate cause for war? That seems to be the common view among Israel's detractors, that Hamas (and the Gazans who supported them for 20 years) are totally blameless and Israel is acting in a vacuum.

And IIRC towards the end of the siege of Mariupol, civilians did seek shelter in Azovstal steel works. There was never any issue there.

And Ukraine had not attacked Russia. Another big difference.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570752#Comment_121570752

I'm consistent SeanW. You've convinced me that Israel bears no responsibility at all for making the unilateral decisions to target civilian areas with missile strikes. The reason being that some other lads had some tunnels. The same as Russia bears no responsibility at all for making the unilateral decision to target a theatre full of kids with missile strikes. With the same reason being that some other lads had some tunnels.

Trying to do mental gymnastics to achieve the cognitive dissonance to say that one is grand whereas the other is terrible is beyond my ability at this stage. I need some more teaching first.

Welcome to the twilight zone.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570029#Comment_121570029

Israel funded and supported Hamas against Fatah.

How Israel Secretly Propped Up Hamas - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Your blind support of Israel is remarkable in light of their genocide of Gazan civilians. 'Leave Gaza or die' is not a choice that Israel is justified to offer anyone - we'll see what The Hague says about it next week.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570745#Comment_121570745

So? Even assuming Israel was actually funding Hamas (which they weren’t - they were simply letting money from Qatar through), would this somehow justify Hamas murdering Israeli women and children?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570788#Comment_121570788

Warning, sarcasm ahead: Yes, you've convinced me that Israel is literally acting unilaterally in a vacuum. And that Russia was really the victim after all because Ukraine spent the last 20 years attacking Russians and murdering Russian civilians inside Russia. It really must suck living in Russia having to have bomb shelters because of Ukraine's long standing and repeatedly expressed intent to exterminate all Russian people. Oh wait, this is all BS.

In reality, the "mental gymnastics" are coming from those who compare Russia with Israel, as if the two had anything whatsoever in common.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570789#Comment_121570789

Fatah aren't exactly angels either: they run (or at least used run) a "Pay for Slay" program that ironically was being subsidised by the Americans.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570648#Comment_121570648

This is just about the most irrelevant and pointless response I’ve seen on here. Positively tragic. And to think you’re so proud of it that you’re now spamming it around the place - well, scraping the bottom of the barrel is putting it kindly.

amandstu

Needs a read

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/04/middleeast/israel-hostage-doron-katz-asher-interview-hamas-gaza-intl/index.html

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570294#Comment_121570294

No. I made no comment on anything reflecting badly on Israel. They are your words.

I was more than happy to have a bomb protected bedroom in case things kicked off.

The Palestinians in Gaza have nothing.

The comment was made (not by you) that Israelis were in danger in localities close the Gaza. I asked (not sure if there was a reply) how many Israelis in this areas has died since Oct 7. Compare that with how many Palestinians have died.

I then finished up with the piece about Palestinians killed in an area designated as safe by IDF.

Its sort of fascinating, in a rather odd way, that you chose not to engage in that part of my post.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570872#Comment_121570872

In fairness, there are plenty of irrelevant and pointless responses on here. Odd you didn't pick up the one about "dark humour" ...

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570862#Comment_121570862

Israel did more or less the same thing for former Irgun members

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570836#Comment_121570836

Just correcting the OP that Israel stopped making serious strategic errors in the early 2000's. They were making them as late as 2018.

I never mentioned or even alluded to any kind of justification for Hamas butchering civilians on Oct 7. I've said it repeatedly that Hamas are terrorists, a cancer and need to be eradicated. I don't know how anyone can justify the deaths on either side.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570836#Comment_121570836

Presumably without such funds Hamas would not be able to mount any kind of attack. So it seems the cash was important. But not a justification.

Regardless of where the money came from, Israel knew it was coming in and chose not to stop it in order to hobble the PA. And now it has "blown up in their faces" (as reported by the Times of Israel).

Israel had the opportunity to prevent this. They chose not to. They gave Hamas the means to butcher Israelis.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation that wishes Israel to be wiped off the map.

What did Israel expect them to do with a shed load of cash?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570872#Comment_121570872

Not at all. I'm only backing up @SeanW in highlighting the people who are actually the real victims and the ones really suffering as a result of homes being flattened and people being vapourised in Gaza. The wokerati will try to have you believe its them brown lads whom we should be concerned about. But we should really be concentrating on the horrifying situation the Israelis in Tel Aviv etc. are going through right now. I hear they can't even watch Fair City on their TV in the evenings as all broadcasts have been postponed to make way for the rolling news broadcasting the great successes of another couple of hundred toddler terrorists being liquidated during that day.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568721#Comment_121568721

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570836#Comment_121570836

The US have supported and funded many corrupt or worse regimes. From Cuba before Castro to Iran and other multiple middle eastern coups. They probably have done a lot more that we don't know. Sometimes it was right to support someone in the past - or a necessary evil at the time - as the alternative was worse.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570862#Comment_121570862

So help us with the logic. Complete the problem for us.

Scenario: A large number of civilians and children with ethnicity E were killed in a deliberate missile strike on civilian building by X where X was fully aware of the purpose of the building. However, it is noted that group Y had tunnels close by.

Question. Does X bear responsibility for the deaths, or does that lie with Y, with none on X?

Or does the answer change depending on who X & Y were? Or what E is?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571152#Comment_121571152

It's really simple: your equations are fundamentally flawed because they're predicted on the assumption that Israel and Russia are exactly the same. The exact opposite is true in every conceivable respect.

Russia is the largest country on Earth. Israel is one of the smallest. Russia wants to kill all its neighbours, Israel's is trying to avoid being killed by its neighbours. Russia is an authoritarian kleptocracy, Israel is the closest thing the Middle East has to a secular democracy. Most importantly, the government of Gaza is a terrorist government whose stated and repeatedly manifest objective is to kill the Jews. Ukraine's stated and manifest objective is just to continue existing - at no time was Ukraine bent on the annihilation of Russia and all its people, nor has that been the objective of anyone since 1945. As to your ridiculous comparison with the Azov fighters, civilians were allowed to take refuge in the Azov steel works towards the end of the siege of Mariupol.

So I have literally no idea what you're getting at with your patently absurd comparisons, except to try to hoodwink people in thinking Israel is acting in a vacuum or to mislead people into think that Israel's situation is any way comparable to Russia's.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571359#Comment_121571359

You've confirmed exactly what we already knew SeanW. There are no morals or principles in your position - what a party does is only a crime if it is the "wrong" people doing it to the "right" people. It doesn't depend on the act itself - just the parties involved

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571400#Comment_121571400

That is a lie. The ethnicity of the people involved is irrelevant. The background and context are what matters. Israel and Russia are not comparable in any way.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571438#Comment_121571438

Background = irrelevant. Revenge or bloodlust is not an excuse to justify a crime.

Ethnicity is indeed part of the context. Is there a single regular poster on this thread who has been critical of Israel's actions who has not been accused of being antisemitic?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571445#Comment_121571445

That is a lie. Israel's and Russia's situations are diametrically opposed in every imaginable respect. Your comparisons between the two are transparently absurd. The ethnicity of the peoples involved is irrelevant.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571465#Comment_121571465

I am merely focusing on incidents which are mirror images of each other circumstances SeanW.

Israel are not responsible for deliberately targeting civilian - it's Hamas' fault, not the ones who punched in the missile coordinates - and the reason is that Hamas have some tunnels and they could have brought the civilians into them

However Russia is responsible for deliberately targeting civilians. It's the Russians fault for punching in the missile coordinates, not Azov - despite the fact that Azov have some tunnels and they could have brought the civilians into them

My own personal position is that - in both cases- the ones who punched in the coordinates bear the blame.

And in relation to ethnicity being irrelevant, as I said in the previous post - there isn't a regular poster on this thread who is critical of Israel's crimes and who hasn't been accused of being anti-semiotic as an immediate "go-to" retort.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571488#Comment_121571488

Repeating a lie - in your case that my standards have anything to do with the ethnicity of the people involved - does not make it true. The same is true of your bizarre comparisons between Israel and Russia.

Both of these are transparently absurd.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571570#Comment_121571570

Your comparison is total BS and I explained why. I didn't accuse you of anti-Semitism but given that you're genuinely equating Israel with Russia, it probably would be fair to do so. And you brought up ethnicity, not me. My standards do not change because of the skin colour of the people involved and any intimation to the contrary is false.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571601#Comment_121571601

SeanW, I am not equating Israel with Russia. I am comparing the act the Russia did in bombing the theatre (when Azov had tunnels) with Israel bombing the sh1t out of residential areas and people on here saying that that is Hamas fault because Hamas have tunnels. And the reason I used it was that you no doubt agree that it would be nonsense to blame Azov rather than the Russians for the Russians bombing the theatre. But you are happy to blame Hamas rather than the IDF for the IDF making a conscious and targeted decision to blow the sh1t out of civilians. And the reason is that Hamas have tunnels for themselves and not civilians

If Israel blows up a load of civilians, the first excuse is "there was someone who looked like a Hamas fella nearby" so it is all Hamas fault.

Now we have - in the absence of that first excuse - if Israel blows up a load of civilians then "it is Hamas fault because Hamas don't have tunnels for the civilians". So it is all Hamas fault.

And the other one of course would be, if some civilians did seek shelter in a tunnel and the IDF blew them out of it or gassed them out of it or downed them by flooding, or collapsed the tunnel with bombs - well it would be all Hamas fault for using them as "human shields".

There is basically no scenario where you are willing to accept, or say, "well actually, maybe the IDF shouldn't have killed those civilians and kids"

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568952#Comment_121568952

again

think you need to explore why you feel only your opinion is valid and why you react poorly to some one else's, as i ve said already there is a name for that that would only upset you more ,

you dont get to demand that i post something or that i dont post something , your not a mod but you've done your best to drag it off topic , a common tactic when your position is indefensible, as such a experienced poster will be aware

#exterminatehamas

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571657#Comment_121571657

It looked like you were equating the two. My standard is simple - Ukraine was not threatening Russia, so Russia has no casus belli against them, i.e. they are the aggressors. Gaza has been waging a long term war against Israel, so Israel has legitimate cause for war. Israel and Russia's motivations for war as well as strategic landscapes are also diametrically opposed. That's why I hold Israel to a different standard to Russia. And that's why I blame Hamas for everything that is happening now, and regard Israel as entitled to take vigorous self-defense. Same as I support Ukraine in doing literally whatever they have to do to make the Russians go away. Simple enough?

And I still don't understand your comparison between Hamas tunnels and the Azov tunnels. There was never any issue with Mariupol civilians getting shelter in the Azovstal works alongside the Azov brigade, again, the conduct of Ukrainian defenders and Hamas terrorists were diametrically opposed.

Igotadose

Seems like ISIS are claiming they did the bombing in Iran the other day.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/04/middleeast/iran-islamic-state-attack-kerman-intl/index.html

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568904#Comment_121568904

Outraged ??? Just trying to make sense of such a roundabout answer when Yes or No would have sufficed.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571072#Comment_121571072

So its ok for Israel to treat the LGBY etc people well but bomb the women and children of Gaza to bits. Good God.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571919#Comment_121571919

That was disappoint some people who desperately wanted it to be Israel

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572033#Comment_121572033

I really don't believe that anyone would want a bigger war in the region. Too many innocents dead already.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572033#Comment_121572033

I'm sure they are trying furiously to figure out how to claim Netanyahu ordered ISIS to carry out the attack.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572053#Comment_121572053

Hamas would rejoice in it.

drop table Users

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572053#Comment_121572053

HAMAS called left a message on answerphone

<clicks play button>

”hahahahhahahaa hahahahah hahahahah alaha ahaha akbaraha hahahah”

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572225#Comment_121572225

Come to think of it, Netanyahu might want a war too. Might keep him in power for longer. He could massacre some more children.

drop table Users

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572241#Comment_121572241

Ouch the whiplash from the 180 degree turn you made in space of two posts must hurt

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572033#Comment_121572033

Who would they be?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572254#Comment_121572254

No it was slow as I was trying to make out your typing. It was like something from Romper Room.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572261#Comment_121572261

Well Iran for one, they came out almost immediately after the attack accusing "the Zionist regime" of being behind the attack.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572241#Comment_121572241

Thats more like it tayto.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572286#Comment_121572286

Welcome back PJ. I missed your one-liners.

dmcdona

I just watched an interesting CNN report (Tapper) about these two individuals.

From Reuters (paywalled):

"The U.S. State Department on Tuesday slammed recent statements from Israeli Ministers Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir that advocated for the resettlement of Palestinians outside of Gaza, calling the rhetoric "inflammatory and irresponsible.""

Also, posters on here extolling the virtues of Israel towards the LGBT community, take note.

Strazdas

Our friend Tzipi Hotovely (Israeli ambassador to the UK) seems to have really lost the plot - called for widespread bombing of Gaza, including houses and schools, in an LBC interview yesterday and effectively for ethnic cleansing. Owen Jones suggests she may well have broken UK hate speech laws with these comments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiWBtSgNkJE

Rezident

Two suicide bombers just attacked Iran, killing nearly 100 people so far and ISIS/ Islamic State have claimed responsibility.

Senior Iranian guards commanders claimed the attacks were orchestrated by Israel, anyway. The default response I suppose.

Hard to know what to believe, isn't it?

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572900#Comment_121572900

I suppose (which is not impossible) that Mossad has infiltrated ISIS.

I don't begin to suggest this but Israel doesn't mind getting its fingers dirty in any of this and if ISIS is battling the Iranian government and Israel has favoured Hamas over Fatah then it might not be much of a stretch for Israel to favour almost anyone over the Iranian regime(and not,perhaps ask too many questions in the process)

Can't believe Netanyahu is still in power.I thought his credibility would be shot at home at this stage.

Rezident

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571445#Comment_121571445

Well, if you're on the same side as Hamas in this war, then that does look Anti-Semitic to people.

If you wear a Palestinian flag and march through the streets of Dublin, or anywhere else, chanting "from the river to the sea...", a genocidal chant that is taken to mean 'kill all the Jews in Israel', that looks decidedly anti-Semitic.

If you use the word "Zionist" a lot, that does seem to be associated with anti-Semitism. I've travelled the world for decades and normal people just do not use the word "Zionist". Ever. It's a weird word to use so frequently, especially in Ireland! It's like you're in a cult. An anti-Semitic one.

You may not identify as an anti-Semite to yourself but if you're on the same side as them, then that's how other people may see you.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572951#Comment_121572951

I think it may have been a US report just hours after the bombing that said the bombing (a double tap) was not the modus operandi of Israel. Whether they were involved in any other way is speculation though.

I heard a snippet on RTE news this evening that Israelis know Netanyahu's credibility is shot and after this is over, so is he.

Perhaps that's why it is in his and other Israeli politicians interests to keep this going as long as possible.

I did also note in December that his prosecution for corruption is still going ahead even during the conflict. And with the SC throwing out the judicial reform legislation, his days do very much appear to be numbered.