Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342879#Comment_121342879

Add the bilateral security guarantees to your list then, explicitly assigning ownership to Palestine.

After the Hamas leadership are removed (in a prompter way than waiting for Mossad to do so, maybe Qatar turns them over to the ICC as instigators in a violent, cruel war), there's still plenty of participants from the 7 October massacre that'll still be around, basically war criminals. Just give them a pass?

As for October 7, yes, that's when this war broke out, started by Hamas. They are completely at fault for this latest manifestation of the ongoing conflict in the middle east. They invaded, massacred people, kidnapped innocents and celebrated it.

Blanch's proposal ends the current spate of violence.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342916#Comment_121342916

Problem is Israel, G7 & most of the EU don't want a ceasefire. 

Unfortunately, this, I have to agree with. It looks like the rowed in very quickly with unwavering support for Israel. Only time will tell if it was because they knew what Israels plans were to eviserate the Gaza strip and that they could 'advocate for peace' later knowing that Israel would have the vastly upper hand.

The protests against Israel on a worldwide level probably is causing them to have second thoughts in some respects. US is still fully behind ISrael and they are the big dog. Ursula Von Der Leyen went very quiet very quickly with the pushback she received.

Marches in the UK this coming weekend are completely counter to government wishes and if they go ahead will probably be as much an indictment of the government as they will be in support of Palestine.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342915#Comment_121342915

That's not the question I asked. There's only a very small number of people in Gaza who have foreign passports.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342927#Comment_121342927

How is peace achieved, for instance?

It just is, that's all you need to know.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342946#Comment_121342946

....

So simple, we should have thought of this much sooner.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342942#Comment_121342942

Ah. Well there's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty

For more information I would read their diplomats on what their thinking is behind their action. But check that your information is still accurate:

Hundreds of foreign passport holders, including Palestinian dual nationals, have left Gaza via the Rafah border crossing to Egypt.

At least 320 foreign nationals entered Egypt from Gaza on Tuesday after the Rafah crossing was closed over the weekend, the Reuters news agency reported, citing Egyptian sources.

Rafah was closed on Saturday and Sunday after an Israeli attack on an ambulance that was heading there. It reopened on Monday with a limited number of people passing through, according to Reuters.

Of those who crossed over, only four were injured Palestinians who would receive treatment in Egypt, a medical source told the news agency.

The United States has helped more than 400 of its citizens, lawful permanent residents and other eligible people leave Gaza since the war began on October 7, a Department of State spokesperson said. A group of Canadian nationals and their dependents also left Gaza on Tuesday.

More than 100 French nationals and their dependents have been evacuated from the Gaza Strip, France’s Ministry for Europe and Foreign Affairs said. Meanwhile, 100 Egyptians have passed through Rafah, an Egyptian security source said, while Jordan’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Expatriates said 262 Jordanians have been evacuated of the 569 stuck in Gaza.'

https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/11/7/palestinians-wait-at-rafah-crossing-as-evacuation-to-egypt-continues

Interview with nurse who made it out through Rafah last week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk7iWgCk14U

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342890#Comment_121342890

The only clear and obvious war crimes that are being committed are the holding of civilian hostages by Hamas.

Other war crimes, whether it is the human shielding by Hamas, the lobbying of rockets at their own citizens by Hamas, any of the claimed war crimes in respect of Israel etc., need further evidence to be corroborated.

That is why I start with the obvious - release the hostages.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342940#Comment_121342940

Still are, you spoke too soon, that is the pycho UN ambassador lad. Comments to the tweet are not a surprise

https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1722299780263530588

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342804#Comment_121342804

The majority of Jewish people view Israel as necessary, and yes "handy". Handy to have a welcoming place to escape to when a large number of people that they live amongst suddenly decide they hate them and go on an anti semitic rampage, which seems to happen an awful lot. You'd have to question why someone can't even stomach the existence of one Jewish state in the entire world. But sure, it's the anti semites who are in support of it and not calling daily for it's destruction

Israel should and does exist. It's not going anywhere. Time for hamas to accept that.

Snooker Loopy

Jeremy Bowen of BBC News was inside Gaza today with Israeli troops. He said he couldn't say exactly where he was but it was "on the approaches to Gaza City".

"On the way there, and while I was at the destination, I did not see one building that wasn't either destroyed or badly damaged, I did not see one Palestinian civilian. The place is essentially a wasteland."

This will be an infamous moral stain which the west will not recover from in our lifetimes.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342933#Comment_121342933

I'll add security conditions on the next edition of the post. But I can tell you now I will be applying it as the responsibility of all parties to some degree.

Blanh152's proposal ends the current spate of violence with the complete shifting of responsibility for it on to Hamas. Israels holds part of the responsibility.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342931#Comment_121342931

When the truth gets inconvenient, the default to non-sequiters arrive.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342871#Comment_121342871

It's under joint control of Egypt and Israel.

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340873#Comment_121340873

Why should they agree to any plan to partition their country? Why would they want their country partitioned?

Strazdas

Good interview with a Times of Israel journalist on RTE's Six One. He says Netanyahu is generally hated and will probably be gone soon, but that the Israeli public are pretty hawkish and of the view that Hamas must be totally destroyed,

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342927#Comment_121342927

There will be a humanitarian pause, US will impose that on Israel, it will be for three days, US will up the international pressure on Hamas to release the hostages so that the humanitarian pause can be turned into a ceasefire, Hamas will have a choice. If they choose war rather than peace, it will be on them.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342967#Comment_121342967

The problem is that to stomach the Jewish people having a homeland it seems you have to be able stomach the Palestinians not having one.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342940#Comment_121342940

It is obvious from day 1 they don't want a ceasefire, they even sent out a memo telling everyone. They really are making themselves look evil, if we see it so does everyone.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342964#Comment_121342964

The only clear and obvious war crimes that are being committed are the holding of civilian hostages by Hamas.

Wrong

Geneva Convention. (Bold mine)

Article 33 is derived from Article 50 of the Hague Regulations: "No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they can not be regarded as jointly and severally responsible".

All the following fall foul of that clause.

• Turning off Power
• Turning off communications
• Preventing aid delivery
• Targeting food provision sources
• Targeting refugee areas with missiles

If you want to talk about just hostages (which you can't) then again you have to consider the uncharged prisoners Israel is holding or if not, tell us why not.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342833#Comment_121342833

What happens when the Canaanites arrive? Oh, wait, that's right.

https://english.m.tau.ac.il/news/canaanites

They are all Canaanites.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342823#Comment_121342823

I've already done so. Ultimately the creation of Israel was a sweeping under the rug exercise for international powers post WW2 that completely failed to address the larger issues at hand, including deal with their own anti-semitism and anti-islam sentiment. America for a long time sort of ignored what was happening regarding the holocaust. They accepted well below what they could have and should have, often down to plain old beaurocracy but plenty because t hey just didn't want to acknowledge what was happening.

It wasn't until after Israel was created that they changed their policy and took more in

Instead it pushed the problem largely to one area, and let the 2 problems co-exist but out of their domestic sphere.

The balfour declaration came about partially due to some plain old anti-semitism too. Britain was desperate to get USA and it finances into the first world war, but believe it was heavily controlled by Jewish people, and also many believed them (wrongly) to be Zionists too. So good old fashioned stereiotypical beliefs about Jewish people, played its hand in the minds of the people who set the wheels in motion of the creation of a Jewish state..

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342968#Comment_121342968

Bear in mind that one of the conditions CNN acquiesced to when having reporters embedded with the IDF is that all footage and reporting would be shared with the IDF before being broadcast.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343003#Comment_121343003

Not true. Everyone except Hamas supports a two-state solution.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342931#Comment_121342931

Are you saying that the Jews were not entitled to immigrate to the lands they considered their ancient home?

When they were being expelled from countries right left and centre they were just supposed to find another home elsewhere?

After 6 million of them were murdered in the Holocaust the survivors should have just tried their luck somewhere else and hope they would not get picked on again?

Colonization occurs normally when a country expands its borders by seeking extra territorial regions elsewhere(as has been done since time immemorial)

The Jews didn't have a country to expend from .They had been spat out of most countries where they had tried to establish themselves down the years.

Spat out and worse.

I am not comfortable with calling them "colonists" as this is in recent years a term of abuse and they didn't deserve that abuse.

A different matter now that the police has shifted to forced settlements in the West Bank.

Call that colonization if no other description fits but the State of Israel itself was not set up as a "colony" and it is abusive to suggest it.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343020#Comment_121343020

This is Nethanyahu at the UN on Sept 22 2023

Please show us Palestine on his map.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342972#Comment_121342972

It's no more ridiclous than the claim for them to their ancient homeland. Shall we kick every white skinned american person out so and take them back to Europe. African Americans too as they never asked to go there. Maybe all South Americans of Spanish extraction can piss off too and the land returns to the various indiginous people who lets be honest have a rightful claim.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343003#Comment_121343003

No you don't. Two state solution is the only way. Israel isn't going anywhere. Time for Hamas to accept this, and not keep going on about eradicating all the Jews

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342967#Comment_121342967

There's a lot of stereotyping and generalization in this post, both stereotyping Jews and generalizing how they collectively and globally feel, and how Israel is viewed and generally conflating that with Jewish people which just isn't realistic, Israel can declare itself the happiest place on earth for Jewish people, do all Jewish people have Israeli passports, live in Israel, subscribe to their newsletters, vote in their elections, pay taxes? No, not even a plurality do: 7.145 million individuals in Israel are Jewish, globally those considered to be 'core' Jewish, number 16 million+ worldwide.

There is much effort by the Likud-run government of Israel to speak for all Jewish people, but it's just fundamentally untrue.

Israel will argue, that actually it speaks for 23.8 million Jews, by counting all Jewish persons and adjacent groups, and assuming them as participants eligible under their Law of Return, which gives them the right to seek citizenship. This is not nearly the same as a plurality of Jewish persons actually doing so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#:~:text=As%20of%202023%2C%20the%20world's,the%208%20billion%20worldwide%20population.

Nobody should be carrying out hate crimes (at all but in this case) against individuals with no relation to a governments actions, just as nobody should generalize how people targeted by hate crimes feel about a government or its actions...

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343020#Comment_121343020

What two state solution though. Everyone and I mean everyone knows Netanyahu has never wanted a two state solution and scuppered the Oslo accord, many in Israel and beyond believe his rhetoric led to Rabin's assassination. Anyway, back to the matter at hand and your providing evidence for white European colonists right to evict Palestinians from their lawfully held land.

brickster69

Just can't help themselves.

https://twitter.com/_NicoleNonya/status/1722277965726433372