Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382796#Comment_121382796

That is your hypothesis.Just as easy to hypothesize that they would have been repulsed by the attack on civilians.

I don't know how the comparison would have gone but we do know Hamad (et al) were prepared and happy to carry out the attack and that the Palestinian population seems now to be right behind them according to that poll(I admit I have not studied it)

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382827#Comment_121382827

It's tradition, even in the days of the Oslo Accords

During the Rwandan genocide in 1994, US officials under the Clinton administration were instructed not to refer to it as genocide, but instead say that "acts of genocide may have occurred."[16] As early as April 1994, the government had internally referred it as genocide, but they did not publicly refer to it as such until June.[17] On a visit to Kigali, in 1998, Clinton apologized for not referring it as genocide, and for not sending aid to Rwanda.[18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide_denial

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121381392#Comment_121381392

Baby food? In containers? Food, like Rice in bags? cooking oil in tins? Stuff like that you mean. No, it generally cannot be repurposed into weapons like bullets, but for sure, powders can be something else other than what's written on the tin, and weapons can be hidden in cooking oil drums, and as for 20 Kg rice bags.. My God, the stuff you can get into these bags.. and it happens, trust me on that. Without scanners, its possible to smuggle almost anything. And as we have seen with the tunnel construction, masses of building materials found their way into Gaza. But of course, for all that construction, it could have been legitimately imported, for Gaza reconstruction/ housing projects, but somehow found itself in tunnel construction, Ditto, electrical equipment, cabling, fuse boards etc. But weapons? they would have to come via underground channels, and that's why Israel checks traffic into Gaza.

Northernlily

Yeah it does seem the babies are dieing. You would think the Israelis would have took them with them to safety back into Israel on their search for a bag of guns in a cabinet at A-Shifa?

After all, as per their spokesman - they had Arab speakers and medical staff to help where needed.

They want them babies to die.That is how strong the hate is.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382863#Comment_121382863

......

Overheal

Daily Wire almost engaged in its own cancel culture, but slept on it and decided Candace Owens won't be airlocked after all because of her sharp criticism of Israel

https://www.mediaite.com/news/daily-wire-ceo-says-he-and-ben-shapiro-would-not-fire-candace-owens-because-shes-paid-to-give-her-opinion/

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382795#Comment_121382795

I don't know. You tell me? Maybe I should have said 10k, 15k, 20k, or whatever.

The actual point is that if the IDF wanted to truly decimate the civilian population of Gaza, it could do so in a day or two.

By no metric imaginable is 12,000 dead OK. But that's not because of "indiscriminate bombing".

If Israel actually engaged in that, with the firepower it has, and given the density of Gaza, you would be looking at hundreds of thousands of dead by now.

12,000 dead after a round-the-clock pounding of a dense urban area for over a month can absolutely be called a war crime, unjustified, despicable, or whatever. It's not OK.

But the IDF is not indiscriminately bombing Gaza. If it was it would have killed half of Gaza by now. It's basically a giant urban population with zero air defence.

tigerboon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382625#Comment_121382625

Even if they were soldiers and even if they were legitimate targets, there is absolutely no justification for the way they were killed. Not going to link anything but some of the accounts are hard to read, never mind pictures. Barbarity is an understatement. They didn't attack military targets and never intended to. They murdered, maimed, chopped up, burnt alive and gang raped innocent civilians. Making any excuses at all for that is very thinly veiled Jew hatred

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382763#Comment_121382763

See timestamp re: argument about scale and population, and genocide.

"Is that a fair defense?"

"No, I don't think so..."

https://youtu.be/Y9otNTz5LSs?si=-GcXYRcZUXvuweoj&t=215

Omer Bartov, an Israeli-American professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University, joins Mehdi to discuss Israel’s bombardment of Gaza. Bartov tells Mehdi, “I don’t think that what is happening there right now is genocide… but I think it’s very important to stress that the danger of genocide is right there.”

blackcard

A lot of people are being accused of being anti-semitic or anti-israel because they are condemning the actions of the IDF. What about Hamas and October 7th, they say? And they are correct. Those shocking actions were carried out by a terrorist organisation and caused terrible grief to many innocent people. But you would expect the IDF to act to a different standard and to be held to account to a different standard. Instead, they have killed thousands of innocent children and women, driven over 1 million from their homes and created a humanitarian crisis. Which body is acting to a higher standard, Hamas or the IDF? Hard to say but that is a measure of how low the IDF have sunk

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382881#Comment_121382881

What's the context? A pallet of boxes marked "medical Supplies", no other documentation that I can see (unless its on the hidden part of the box? But I doubt it! ) Now I've handled more medical supplies than I care to think about, and in cartons like those ones in the pic, and others too, different kinds of medicine, drugs, plastic containers of ringer's lactate etc all packaged different, but with one thing in common, Each carton or package, or container had a sticker on it giving a very detailed description of what medicine, drugs etc it contained, were they hazardous, cold -chain limited, this way up stickers, best before date, very detailed composition of the contents etc. And glaringly, absolutely no details of delivery address, and more importantly, no information on who sent it. None of which I see on the cartons in the pic. I can tell you this for nothing, If I had anything to do with that pallet, the alarm bells would be flashing.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382903#Comment_121382903

I can think of only 1, Hiroshima. I don't think the initial/instant death toll in Nagasaki was over 50k.

So that's grand, because Israel didn't nuke Gaza it can't be indiscriminate bombing cause the death toll would be higher?

Maybe a better view would be they simply don't care about collateral damage. They spot a Hamas member enter a building, they just bomb the building, regardless of whose inside?

There's a movie staring Aaron Paul called eye in the sky. About a drone pilot and a high value Target in a building, lots of legal and morality back and forth over a few collateral kills.... The Israeli version would be over in 5mins.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382863#Comment_121382863

But Israel allow bags of rice, cooking oil etc... but they don't allow enough of it. It's not like cooking oil is banned etc... they just severely limit the quantity of it. Like they want to keep the population near starved.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382939#Comment_121382939

Fire bombing of Tokyo killed 100k in one night.

Also bombings in places like Dresden, Hamburg killed 25-50k. I'm sure there's more, but they come to mind.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382942#Comment_121382942

Maybe ,like @jmreire seems to be hinting the bottleneck is because so many items need to be examined before being allowed through?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382924#Comment_121382924

The other strawman is "where were the protestors when X muslims were killed in Syria?".

The big difference is that the West (especially the US) is pouring arms and money into Israel to help them do their murdering. It should be demanding a higher standard of behaviour.

Or even up the sides and make it a fair game by sending those billions of dollars worth of weapons to the Palestinians.......................... see how gung-ho everyone is for "right to defend oneself" then.....when Russia started bombing the sh1te out of Ukraine, we didn't send Russia more missiles.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382918#Comment_121382918

I wonder what was the rationale behind the killings?

Is that just the way they have become or did they go out of their way to be as shocking as possible?

I think there were different kinds of participants in the assault and I wonder to what extent the barbarity of it was planned and to what extent they "let the more deranged elements off the leash" or lost control of them.

They had a year or so to plan for this apparently .Was anything a surprise to them?

Were they even ordered to be sure to also kill non Israelis so as to appear less anti Jewish?

We cannot just assume (if we are)that the leaders of Hamas are not masters of the cynicism playbook.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382948#Comment_121382948

Unfortunately all 3 of those places were firebombed, we'll come back to it if Israel resort to napalm.

Israel in the opening 6 days, dropped 6000 tonnes of bombs. Now, remember Israel don't have heavy bombers like the US or Russia, they are limited by fighter bombers, I honestly think they could only bomb more, if they had more planes or actual heavy bombers. Needless to say, they drop more ordnance on Gaza than the Russian's do on the entire front line in Ukraine, yet Russians don't be killing a child every 10 mins.

You only have to look at the demographics, if I just randomly dropped on bomb in Gaza and killed 100 people, 75% would be women & children.

If you look at the casualty figures from this war.... it's about 70% women and children.

That's just too close to say Israel are not indiscriminately bombing. The pilots may not be just spamming the fire button, but they don't appear to be minimizing the civilian deaths, they are a very fuking long way off it. Even Netanyahu said so.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382974#Comment_121382974

It's not really a strawman though is it. It's just an observation. People are extremely interested in the plight of Palestinians but don't seem to have remotely the same interest in other conflicts that are similar contextually.

The US heavily supplies Saudi Arabia, which is heavily involved in the Yemen civil war, where thousands of children have died.

The US also heavily supplies Turkey, which is actively persecuting the Kurdish people.

You don't see protests about either scenario. I'm not drawing any conclusions, but your claim is kinda off.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382827#Comment_121382827

A problem with the EU response is that the Germans have been so traumatised by guilt over the Holocaust that they just cannot bring themselves to criticise Israel.

The US is compromised because the pro-Israel lobby in politics, the media and big business is so powerful. Heavily criticising Israel's actions in public could nearly be career ending for quite a few people.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382951#Comment_121382951

Maybe Israel shouldn't have occupied Gaza back in 07 if they couldn't provide the requirements the people of Gaza are legally entitled to.

Or here's a thing, send supplied from their own stock, they know the local store in Tel Aviv doesn't have an AK47 in a bag of rice or a grenade in the baby formula. You occupy a Gaza, you take the legal responsibility!

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382996#Comment_121382996

I agree they are absolutely not minimising casulties. As you said, even Netanyahu admitted the same.

The point is that if Israel wanted to go full-tilt, or even go half that, it has the arsenal to actually decimate the population of Gaza.

That they haven't isn't a ringing endorsement of their restraint or anything like that.

It's just a factual observation. Israel has the ability to basically wipe out Gaza.

I agree Israel doesn't have a heavy bomber force, but it has enough stockpiles of missles and bombs that if they were truly directed indisciminately, into densely populated areas with no warning, they could achieve a similar effect.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121383006#Comment_121383006

"Or here's a thing, send supplied from their own stock, they know the local store in Tel Aviv doesn't have an AK47 in a bag of rice or a grenade in the baby formula. You occupy a Gaza, you take the legal responsibility"

Seems a good idea.It would also be a propaganda benefit for Israel .

But I expect the offer would have been refused,at least back in 2007.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382942#Comment_121382942

Now that of course is horse of a completely different colour! Thats wrong, in capital letters, and in so many ways. Not least it breaches the Geneva Convention's. It's Wrong, totally, and inexcusably wrong. No question.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121383000#Comment_121383000

Complete false equivalence.

tigerboon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121382991#Comment_121382991

A certain amount of the barbarity was definitely planned. They attacked civilians notmilitarytargets. I also read somewhere that there were lists of names of IDF officers that were to be raped. Were all the attackers aware of this...who knows. Probably not them all. We also don't know if things went further than planned because of adrenaline, drugs etc.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121383019#Comment_121383019

As I have said, I don't think they have the planes and pilots to go full tilt. 6000 bombs in 6 days. 1000 a day, 41 bombs an hour, about 7 planes an hour needing to be rearmed, refueled, pilot needs a piss etc...

Israel do have the ability to wipe out Gaza, they are doing it day by day to the best of their ability. I don't see much restraint. Unless you mean they haven't being bombing dense clusters of people, like those evacuating south or refugee camps (bar the one they did bomb). That's hardly a ringing endorsement. Most countries who embark on mass killings/genocide, try to hide it.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121383043#Comment_121383043

I think I heard the plan (or a major part of the plan) was to break through to the West Bank.

Is it surprising that they were unable to coordinate something with the West Bank so as to link up?

I heard they made it half way across the Israeli territory...Had they had help it might have been even more significant.

They must surely have some clandestine or open Hamas operatives on the West Bank.They can't have been that cut off (the population there supports them now ,apparently -did it also support them before all this happened?)

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121383032#Comment_121383032

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

Some people think Israel don't control the Rafah crossing, so how does Israel control the calorie count into Gaza?

Some believe Gaza was never under occupation since 2007.

Imposing any kind of restriction on basic food imports is inexcusable.

Rezident

First on the ground, another report of Hamas putting a two month old baby into an oven in front of the parents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxAzdk9GDVA

This not war, this is nothing to do with land or any of the other distractions. This is different. Hamas must be excised from humanity like the cancer that it is. Enough, too much. And no more funding to Palestine until Hamas is long gone.