Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395056#Comment_121395056

Eh you made a declaration that there were no Hamas supporters.

Then you posted this: I've no doubt there's the odd outlier who has appeared in the thread and made a dramatic statement before being removed, or tottering off themselves. 

You can post paragraph and paragraph of whataboutery and deflection, but you have already destroyed your own argument and stated that there are Hamas supporters on the thread.

Strazdas

I see the well known Auschwitz Memorial page on Twitter has run into major trouble for posting a lengthy tweet essentially fully endorsing Israel's military actions in Gaza and barely even mentioning the plight of innocent Gazan civilians - people who have been following the page for years saying they are shocked by their stance.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395073#Comment_121395073

Keep with that angle. Everyone else can see it for the BS it is. All you're doing is proving the absence of evidence to prove your point.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394987#Comment_121394987

I agree that the Hamas attacks didn't happen in a vacuum. I have a big problem with the narrative which frames this as a conflict which originates with or is sustained by Israel. There are multiple players in this, as there always has been. The Palestinian Arabs are a tool of their Arab neighbours, which those neighbours have used in various ways over generations with callous disregard for their Arab brothers and sisters to attack Israel, America and each other. Any discussion about peace and war, conflict or settlement, cause and motive, which does not include the broader regional players is at best ignorant and most probably disingenuous. That's why I find myself advocating for Israel here. Not because I support their government or their policies in Gaza and the West Bank, on the contrary I most certainly don't, but because the popular narrative around this conflict is constructed on the false premise that Israel is the root cause and a solution is within their gift.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395092#Comment_121395092

I'm not sure why anyone would be shocked by this stance?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395097#Comment_121395097

I'm reminded of the words of the late and great journalist Robert Fisk. An expert on the region.

When asked about impartiality and bias, he said that he 'was biased on the side of the oppressed'.

The conflict, like most conflicts, is not something physical as such that we can apply hard rules to or treat like a science experiment where there is a definitive outcome that we can use to determine cause and effect etc.

The Jewish people have a terrible history of being persecuted, or maybe I should say people of Jewish faith since the term 'Jewish people' seems to have been hijacked by Zionists, and at a local and individual level worldwide are probably terrified of being targeted again to various degrees. And any such acts should be denounced, and perpetrators identified and prosecuted or handled appropriately. There is no confusion about this. I posted a link at the weekend showing Nazis marching in Wisconsin and I said how dangerous that is and a sign of very bad things.

But the Palestinian community is, and has been persecuted on a macro level for generations, and they are the ones being killed or literally having their lives destroyed in their tens of thousands at the hands of a state led by extremists, intent in their obliteration. And while some will immediately respond with claims that that is what Hamas says of Israel, Hamas, according to Israel has 40,000 members, It has no army, navy, airforce, equipment or funding that is even a fraction of what Israel has. With the might of the US supporting Israel also.

There are many Israeli's and Jewish people calling for a ceasefire, but these are unfortunately not in power in the Knesset. What is, is carrying out genocide, not saying they want to while not having the means to even think about it.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395060#Comment_121395060

Thank you. You are right. Language is important. We see language used as a tool here even for misinterpretation even if the language questioned was initially used incorrectly. That may even be on purpose. We see it with Israeli ministers and I’ve discussed previously how I would hold them to a higher standard that Hamas. Counter productive is exactly what I feel. I genuinely don’t believe this will eliminate Hamas forever. Another fraction may emerge. I do call for innocent Israeli hostages to be released. I also call for a ceasefire. I also call for innocent Palestinian hostages to be released. For settlements to be disbanded. The list goes on. At some stage there will be talks. When that will be whose knows. But hopefully they the talks going on now regarding hostages will lead to fruition and further advancements. Ultimately no peace will happen without Hamas or what’s left of them, Israeli government and PA and all others come to the table. As per usual right now it’s innocents on both sides who are suffering.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395092#Comment_121395092

They're also blocking Jewish people responding to them asking for a ceasefire. Quite depressing.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395066#Comment_121395066

No, they said there were an isolated few who dropped in. You're making it out as if there is a significant amount of Hamas support on this thread, which as far as I can see, there isn't.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394906#Comment_121394906

I agree that Flanagan was a buffoon but he was a popular one and he reflected public opinion.

The Lord Mayor was quiet enough about the Boycott and stoning's in Limerick but he did speak out against the Church of Ireland Bishop who criticised the attacks and boycott. Arthur Griffith also spoke against the Jews and in favour of the Boycott. A short time later he founded Sinn Fein. Admittedly the modern reincarnation of Sinn Fein see nothing wrong with blowing up children so Griffith was better than them but that's a very low bar by which to be measured.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395109#Comment_121395109

It's a memorial of a concentration camp, the lesson of which is supposed to be "never again".

It's not the most consistent stance for them to now support a population being driven from their land then forced into a small area because of their race where they have been surrounded by a high security wall with heavily armed guards, having their access to food and water suppressed, all orchestrated by a heavily militarised nation with a government who believes in ethnic supremacy and who is now systematically killing them while frequently using genocidal language.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395109#Comment_121395109

The page has been a very moving one over the years - posting a photo every day of a victim (often a child) of the Holocaust. But to come out supporting the military action of a regime and barely even acknowledge that many innocent civilians have been killed is very jarring.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395097#Comment_121395097

Most of us have some reasonable grasp of the complexities but advocating for Israel is just sick given developments over the past month. Their relentless attacks on a largely defenceless civilian population are simply unforgivable. The civilised world is horrified. They have crossed a threshold, ruined the reputation of their state and evaporated residual sympathy for the treatment of Jews in WW2. Bridges have been burnt and the world can see who has the jackboots on now. How much of this is a result of deliberate machinations by Netanyahu's government and how much is a total overreaction to be found short on security is hard to say. There were far, far better ways to have handled the crisis that erupted in early October. I expect this to have serious downstream consequences for the state of Israel and the citizens there will come to bitterly regret this period. I find the initial US position of unqualified support rather baffling as the end result was predictable, they should surely have been pulling very hard on Netanyahu's reins. Support for a revenge attack done and dusted in a couple of days would have been reasonable but they have allowed the dogs of war to get completely out of hand.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395154#Comment_121395154

Well no, I was challenging the statement that there were no Hamas supporters on the thread. Do you agree or disagree with this statement, because implicitly your post acknowledges that there are?

So if you disagree, baffled as to why are you replying to my post and not the post that made the false statement.

It is not a major view, but nor is it non-existent, insignificant or isolated either. I listed several different types.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395174#Comment_121395174

Again, the use of language is important. Israel is not conducting a "relentless attack on a largely defenceless civilian population". If they were there would be hundreds of thousands of dead civilians by now. They are, in my opinion, behaving with a disgraceful disregard for civilian collateral damage.

"Who has the jackboots on now" is a implicit reference to Israelis as a Nazis. That's an appalling and shameful thing to say.

That would lead me to believe that you don't in fact have any real grasp of the complexity of the situation.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395066#Comment_121395066

Anyone cheering for Hamas are trolls and I imagine long gone from this thread. No one is condoning what Hamas did. Equally we have had people banned for outright racism and people like @RobbieV advocating for Israel to continue its bombardment of Gaza even if hostages are released.

I would be one of the people you would class as “just asking questions brigade” as I believe there are legitimate questions to be answered on both sides. For instance for a blockade how are Hamas importing weapons. Did Egypt really warn Israel. Why did it take so long for military action. I posted recently about an Israeli article that stated female soldiers raised concerns on Hamas training near the border and it wasn’t listened to. They said it was discrimination based on gender. There have been reports Israelis were killed by their own weapons trying to defend from Hamas. It’s right to ask questions. Both sides have been known to lie, many examples of Israel stating one thing and rowing back later. Hopefully at the end of all this there will be some answers but it’s nuanced and it’s not as clear cut as Israel = good. Hamas = bad. Well Hamas is bad: but I don’t believe Israel and their behaviours are good either. And asking these questions doesn’t make a person anti semite.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395174#Comment_121395174

You've said it perfectly.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395165#Comment_121395165

What race are you talking about?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395216#Comment_121395216

If the shoe fits......

Furze99 is 100% correct in how the actions of Israel has eroded previously unconditional support that the world held for the Jewish people. It is evident in the millions of protestors attending 100's of protests every week worldwide.

You can play the pearl-clutching outrage role if you wish, the Zealots in Israel are responsible for how the world is now seeing them.

StringerBell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391462#Comment_121391462

I'm not really a fan of the narrative around Hamas actions having broad support of Gaza population because they were elected.

For one thing it completely ignores how Hamas campaigned during that election and attempted to rebrand themselves as a moderate group. Look it up.

It veers the conversation towards the people in Gaza deserve what they get which is plainly wrong and a disgusting position to hold.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395227#Comment_121395227

I am talking about those who only ever ask questions which implicates the Israeli side, or exonerate Hamas; and never ask critical questions about the role of Hamas. And "just" asking questions, insinuating etc etc

People are condoning what Hamas did. Refusing to condemn them for atrocities against civilians. Implying the entire operation was an Israeli false flag. Demonstrating sneaking regard for the attacks. What is that if not condoning?

Asking questions of both sides, and giving context \ nuance to the questions and put forth their own take on things is not what I am referring to.

Oh and I think people who deliberately pick out Nazi comparisons to Israeli, despite their being historically very dubious and there being many much more valid historical comparisons to chose from - and engaging in anti semitic baiting. People who only take issue with conduct such as Israels, while turning a blind eye to the same conduct elsewhere in the Middle East, have a hatred of Israel and anti semitism is one source of that hatred.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395241#Comment_121395241

So are you saying that you think that Israelis are Nazis?

The pearl clutching outrage is the preserve of those who are all bent out of shape by this conflict while been unfazed by larger and more bloody ones close by. The double standards and and utter hypocrisy of those people shows them for the bigots they are.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395247#Comment_121395247

Fair enough but the narrative that Hamas are a small group that has somehow taken the 1.6 million people in Gaza hostage is nonsensical.

Civilian populations never deserve what they get. The disagreement is about what level of culpability Hamas and the IDF hold for their suffering. I hold that Hamas bears the primary and overwhelming responsibility for their suffering but that the IDF are shockingly ambivalent to it.

brickster69

Arab delegation left China after 2 days and landed in Moscow.

https://twitter.com/NationalIndNews/status/1726916039685136785

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395275#Comment_121395275

Let me see if I can phrase this in a way that won't have people on here claiming I called every Israeli Hitler next time I come to the thread.

I believe that there are several people in the Israeli Government, Military, Media and Society who would be happy to exterminate the Palestinian population in the same way that Nazis sought to exterminate the Jewish Community 80 years ago.

There are enough of these people in positions of power, operation, influence that means that the Israeli nation is currently carrying out a genocide on the Palestinian people.

And so that there is no confusion, I don't see the state of Israel and the Jewish community being the same entity or necessarily on the same wavelength, but there are too many in the latter that is giving tacit support to the former in its current actions.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395256#Comment_121395256

Again I don’t think any of those people are left on this thread. I’d be surprised if you can name anyone who regularly contributes to this thread as condoning Hamas. I’m open to correction on that.

As for the references to Jewish history, many feel it’s relevant considering the atrocities that they lived through and how the state of Israel came to be today directly because of that. It’s a natural correlation to have especially if you sit on the side of the fence that believes Israel is engaging in ethnic cleaning, and forced movement, settlements etc etc

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395306#Comment_121395306

Do you think America knew this would happen, or is going to realize what is happening?

We're seeing a very disturbing group of sides. Israel/US/EU/Australia/Canada on one side, Arab states/South Africa/China/Russia on the other.

FFS, we should be literally working together to deal with what is going to impact all of us (climate change) instead we're gearing up to blow the **** out of each other for a few years in the name of what exactly?

And the vastttttttt majority of the people on the planet want nothing but peace. In moments like this, I'm glad I don't have children.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395325#Comment_121395325

I think it is quite clear that Israel is engaging in forced movement of the Arab population in large parts of the West Bank. I think there is a larger proportion of the Palestinian Arab population that would like to see the total extermination of the Jewish Palestinian that is the case in reverse. I believe that a larger proportion of the Muslim population are religious fundamentalists than is the case in the Jewish population. I believe that democracy and democratic institutions are more compatible with the Jewish Faith than the Muslim Faith. That's an opinion based on the teachings of both faiths.

Much of the rhetoric on this has echoes of Trumps comment after Charlottesville that there are good people on both sides; while the actions of Israel can and should be criticised Hamas, in their ideology, intent and actions, are far worse. Full stop and without equivocation.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395322#Comment_121395322

If you think that what Israel is doing now is genocide then I suggest you read a few history books.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395348#Comment_121395348

It's worth noting which countries are on the side of Israel and what values they hold in common. It's also worth noting the confluence of anti democratic countries aligned against them.