Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395165#Comment_121395165

It's a memorial of a concentration camp. One of many concentration camps where millions of their people were put to death. The culmination of hundreds of years of persecution.

I presume they hoped their people would never be treated like that again. Instead, they see their people immediately being attacked by neighbours since 1947. Their people still needing to defend themselves because no-one else does.

I'm surprised that anyone could be shocked by their stance, I can understand it completely.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395325#Comment_121395325

They pop up, and it can take some time before the mask slips and they leave the thread, whether voluntarily or involuntarily.

And just yesterday on the thread I was involved in a discussion where a poster refused to condemn Hamas for atrocities against civilians, deploying vague and evasive phrasings instead.

It is not a natural correlation. It is just lazy race baiting. It is bordering on Holocaust Denial, which is a form of anti-semitism (whether conscious or subconscious), because it belittles the true horror of the Nazis and the Holocaust. So as far as I'm concerned someone who engages in that is engaging in anti-semitism.

How many examples of ethnic cleansing, forced movement and settlements have there been in history? In the Middle East?

How many examples of massive bombing campaigns?

The reason why the Nazis have gone down in history for evil is not merely because of that. It is because of the deliberately deployed planned industrial scale horrors such as death camps to try to carry out their goals. The scale and deliberate nature of the genocide they planned.

There is a hatred of Israel that was there before October 7th. Some of that hatred is anti Western in nature, but some of it is undoubtedly anti-semitic.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395241#Comment_121395241

I mentioned here yesterday evening that the current conflict has been an absolute PR disaster for Israel. They are rapidly heading in the direction of being perceived as a rogue or pariah state by the public in the West (even if western governments and some media are not on board with this idea).

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395094#Comment_121395094

"Everyone" else?

Well given that posters have thanked and agreed with my comments on the thread, not only is your statement demonstrably false purely based on the contents of the thread.

But also, do you remember posting this? These were your words earlier today:

"Stop pretending that you get to declare what is happening on the thread just because it is your say so."

From the same poster who makes declarations on behalf of "Everyone else" on the thread?

Isn't that you declaring what is happening on the thread?

I think posters on the thread can make up their own minds about where 'the BS' is coming from.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395391#Comment_121395391

Sorry but that’s BS. It is not holocaust denial to ask questions of an event that is happening now. No one is denying that the holocaust happened. No one is denying the severity, horror and atrocity of the holocaust. Settlement, forced movement, calling Palestinians animals and inferior race are not behaviours I would ever condone. Do you think it’s ok? Because horrors were thrust upon a race and ethnicity 70 years ago, does not make it ok for the above behaviours. In fact, maybe I’m naive, one would assume there would be more compassion for other races and ethnicities and not a sense of entitlement such as the settlements.

Yes the horrors that happened in WWII were on an unimaginable scale. However there are equally horrible acts happening today on both sides. One would hope we have evolved enough to never see an atrocity of that scale again. Against any race/ethnicity.

I can’t answer the question to how many forced movements etc. I don’t know. It’s still wrong. I’m not sure I get the point you’re trying to make with that.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395348#Comment_121395348

Someone is going to have to mediate in negotiations if it get's to that point. China and Russia have understanding with both sides and have openly condemned both sides at the UN.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395066#Comment_121395066

Who hasn’t condemned Hamas when challenged to do so?

That your replied to my posts yesterday unequivocally condemning Hamas with a response of “ why don’t you condemn Hamas” is a case in point.

If questions aren’t allowed on a discussion board perhaps you could direct us to a forum where asking questions isn’t regarded as right wing, anti Semitic, conspiratorial opprobrium.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395387#Comment_121395387

You seem to miss the point that it was the Zionists idea to go and settle in that area of the World with the aim of creating a Jewish state there. They always knew based on their history with Islamists, that this would never be accepted and that the creation of a Jewish state on lands taken from the Arabs would never be accepted by their "neigbours". The Israelis have aways known they would have to fight for the existence of their state from the start, that is why they have always had such a strong military force from the start. People can argue about the right of Israel to exist, but the reality is if you take land from people against their wishes(whether you think justified or not), you can expect a certain level of hostility from those dispossessed. That is as old as hat. The Zionists have always known that.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395488#Comment_121395488

And if peace is to come, I'm going to have no issue if it is led by China and Russia. (That doesn't mean Russia gets a pass on Ukraine)

I'd just be wary of US intent if they see the potential for China and Russia being peacemakers.

Biden met with Xi last week, I wonder did they discuss this conflict in any sort of meaningful way.

AllForIt

Hey does anyone know when holocaust denial began? I would have imagined it began decades after, like say in the 80's where only then could one say that photo and video evidence has been faked.

Anyway, this Irish comedian has only waited a few weeks since the October 7th massacre. They don't waste much time these days do they.

https://twitter.com/danielsrosehill/status/1726047917037719790

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395516#Comment_121395516

Of course, maybe Ireland could also.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395469#Comment_121395469

This is what I wrote:

It is not a natural correlation. It is just lazy race baiting. It is bordering on Holocaust Denial, which is a form of anti-semitism (whether conscious or subconscious), because it belittles the true horror of the Nazis and the Holocaust. So as far as I'm concerned someone who engages in that is engaging in anti-semitism.

How many examples of ethnic cleansing, forced movement and settlements have there been in history? In the Middle East?

How many examples of massive bombing campaigns?

The reason why the Nazis have gone down in history for evil is not merely because of that.

How you got: "It's not Holocaust Denial to ask questions" from that I don't know.

How about responding to the actual points made as to why it is lazy race baiting and anti-semitic to call Jews Nazis? Because this post doesn't even attempt to do so.

Just because something should not be described as Nazi behaviour does not mean it is condoned. You are just demonstrating Godwin's Law by lazily jumping straight to Nazi, going past all the far more applicable and relevant examples from history as you do so. And when it relates to Jewish people, there is a responsibility before throwing around such language, and when such responsibility is not shown - it is anti semitic, unconscious or not.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395536#Comment_121395536

My understanding of Hickey's position is that he doesn't deny that October 7th happened or that 800 Israeli civilians were murdered - more that he's querying the entire narrative of how this event has been used to justify the attacks on Gaza and its population.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395668#Comment_121395668

It's the same disinformation tactics we saw Russian propagandists roll out, vague weasel words about "we don't know", the same "just asking questions" jaqqing off. Questions he will never ask of Hamas or their supporters. Any words said about Hamas will be couched in caveats and both sides and reservations. No such standard applied when discussing Israel.

Give him time he'll probably go full conspiracy theory nutjob and hinting it was an Israeli false flag.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395703#Comment_121395703

He's clearly very left wing and pro-Palestine and anti-Israel in his beliefs. I don't think it would be fair to accuse him though of being a denier that October 7th even happened. I would say the likes of Claire Daly and Mick Wallace are even further to the left than he is.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395703#Comment_121395703

Here's some questions for you.

1. Do you think that it was strange that Israel claims to have been caught completely unawares given that Egypt says it told them, and that given the numbers involved, the idea that Israeli intelligence wouldn't have picked up on it except simultaneously they want people to believe that they were able to grab a recording of Hamas personnel discussing the firing a rocket that hit a hospital at the start of the conflict?
2. Do you not think that Israeli reports as to 40 beheaded babies which was repeated by many (including Biden) but which Israel then said it couldn't confirm that it happened would lead to skepticism about other reports around the incident?
3. What do you think Netanyahu was implying when he said that Hamas was central to Israel achieving its goals?
4. Do you think asking these questions implies support for Hamas?

For the record, I think that the attacks on Oct 7th were brutal terrorist attacks carried out by people intent on harming as many Israelis as they could. All those who participated, planned and funded the attack should be held accountable or removed so that they can never do so again. But just because this is the case, I'm not going to blindly accept everything a group that is killing thousands of people and which has proven to have made false statements. Are you doing this?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395733#Comment_121395733

Does he actually say that 800 civilians were 'murdered' or merely 'killed'?

Does he specifically condemn Hamas for those murders, or is it just condemning the killings in general without assigning culpability?

Such activists as Hickey, Daly, Wallace can be 'Jesuitical' in their phrasing to give themselves wiggle room, or is that weasel room.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395764#Comment_121395764

The guy is a comedian / satirist. Is it really his job to justify his position on what form his satire takes? I'm not sure I see the numerous right wing / far right media commentators in the UK being challenged on just why they are supporting the Israeli regime.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395760#Comment_121395760

I think there is a deliberate attempt to sow confusion about the atrocities Hamas carried out on October 7th, nit picking on details at the risk of obscuring the real truth - that they were "brutal terrorist attacks carried out by people intent on harming as many Israelis as they could." That in those attacks they deliberatley inflicted atrocities against civilians, regardless of age or gender. There were maimings, beheadings, burnings, rapes and the brutalisation extended to infants and children. They were babies mutilated, there were beheadings, that somehow grew legs into "40 beheaded babies". Were there 40 beheaded babies? Seems not. But they were dead babies, deliberately killed by Hamas. That is the real truth Hamas defenders and supporters are trying to obscure.

As for the rest - largely answered below in response to similar questions from Sir_Name.

I'm not asking you to blindly accept anything, but the red flags that someone is a Hamas supporter comes when...

It is that these questions are only ever asked of one side.

And are not balanced - as you have done, with a clear and unambiguous description of Hamas as brutal terrorists.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395256#Comment_121395256

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395668#Comment_121395668

My understanding of the hard left position is that Oct7 wasn't all that, just a random one-off attack that wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. Clearly Hickey doesn't support any response from Israel at all and doesn't even think killing Hamas terrorists is justifiable because to him they are not even terrorists but freedom fighters.

In any case I think it's ridiculous to say that even if they didn't kill babies that should make some difference. Like what are they trying to say, that Hamas is bad but they could be worse so give them some credit.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395794#Comment_121395794

I'm not sure how that relates to anything that was said. Are we not allowed to challenge them???

What was satirical about the comments??? What was funny? Is this satire or comedy ever deployed against Hamas?

I'd rather commentators that are Hamas supporters just come out and say it and be honest instead of lying and put on a false pretence of neutrality. There is nothing satirically worthy about that approach either.

Come back to me when Hickey posts something balanced, because at the moment it just seems like the same dishonest "just asking questions" line I've heard before.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395811#Comment_121395811

And they did kill babies. Deliberately so in cold blood.

He is an apologist for terrorists, engaged in atrocity denial.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395216#Comment_121395216

Language is indeed important, I agree. So you say Israel is "behaving with a disgraceful disregard for civilian collateral damage". The UN says it is an unparalleled loss of civilian life in modern times. I say it is a relentless attack on a largely defenceless civilian population. Attacks on public buildings and refugee camps. I think we're all basically on the one page there.

As for jackboots, the analogy is apt since the IDF is a well equipped, trained and ruthless force. This war on Gaza is much about public perception and that is the image firmly planted by the actions of the IDF in the public mind. It's a PR disaster for Israel, which maybe is slowly sinking in and hence a move towards a ceasefire. But the damage is done.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395846#Comment_121395846

More with the histrionics and exaggerated hyperbole.

If people saying the killing of 1200 people is less that it was said to be and the events, though horrific, were not as gratuitous as they were initially said to be, is apologizing for terrorists, what is the people who are justifying the killing of 15,000 people and the displacement of a million more in response to these initial attacks.

Much of the original outrage Israel supporters (including Biden) used in the 1st week after the attack to justify what was about to happen.

6 Weeks later, 5,000 that's more than 100 times more than the supposed deaths of babies have been killed and people are pointing the finger at someone correctly pointing out that facts around the attack and saying that that is apologizing for terrorism

Either acknowledge that Hickey isn't doing this, or explain how the deaths of 40 Israeli kids surpasses in tragedy the deaths of thousands of Palestinian ones.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395923#Comment_121395923

It is not a numbers game, it is the nature of what they did.

"Supposed" ???

Eh no, Hamas deliberately and wilfully murdered Israeli babies.

Are you denying that?

Yes or no?

Does Hickey acknowledge that and condemn Hamas for it?

Is Hickey ever moved to point out the facts of what Hamas has done?

Or ask questions when accusations of atrocity are made against Israel?

Because from what's been posted so far, it is just the standard "just asking questions" schtick we've seen so many times before, which is just masking a closet Hamas defender and terrorist apologist.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395322#Comment_121395322

I believe that there are several people in the Israeli Government, Military, Media and Society who would be happy to exterminate the Palestinian population in the same way that Nazis sought to exterminate the Jewish Community 80 years ago.

There are enough of these people in positions of power, operation, influence that means that the Israeli nation is currently carrying out a genocide on the Palestinian people.

You can believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus if you want, but belief doesn't make it so.

Just because one repeats a belief of Genocide in Gaza by Israel doesn't make it so.

Israel is NOT currently undergoing the mass annihilation of 2 million Gazans

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395846#Comment_121395846

Tadgh Hicky is a fool and a Grifter.

He is currently selling a book and tickets to his show. So any publicity is good for the bottom line for him first and foremost.

He will jump and any and all bandwagons and he takes himself soooooo seriously as if he is a serious social commentator on matters.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395828#Comment_121395828

He is a comedian and satirist first and foremost. He produces home made satirical videos on his social media channels all year round on all sorts of topics that are in the news currently (not just Israel) subjects like Brexit, Northern Ireland, Covid-19, class differences etc. Are satirists normally challenged on what angle they take with their satire? I would have thought the whole point of satire is to adopt a very specific position on a particular topic and to mock the thing they are satirising. That being the case, people are totally free to disagree with the satire and not find it funny.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396118#Comment_121396118

On social media I see partisan posts on this topic, no pretence of comedy or satire.

I'm not aware of any requirement for satire that only one particular position on a topic must be mocked. Within the context of one particular piece - yes. But not across all output from same source.

It is obvious the satire is not being done in the name of comedy first, but to serve his political beliefs.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396003#Comment_121396003

As of 26 October since 7 October 2023, following numbers had increased on Palestinian side since then.

30 Israel minor died, names photos and age shared by haaretz Israel news

Baby (0–4) 1

Kid (5–9) 6

Child (10–14) 11

Teenage (15–17) 12

2913 Palestine minor killed by Israeli army, names age and ID numbers shared by Palestinian health ministry

Baby (0–4) 775

Kid (5–9) 778

Child (10–14) 724

Teenage (15–17) 388